Anyone Heard Of This

[vermin on arrival]

So to all who say it is more prevalent in Thailand.....Hogwash...it is human nature

I couldn't disagree with this statement more. Yes, it happens elsewhere, but it doesn't take too much time observing events in the land of smiles to realize that this pattern of violence is indeed more prevalent here.

I don't understand why people seem to bend over backwards to say that Thailand is just like everywhere else in the world when it in fact is not. Asia and the west are different. Then, within these groups their are local patterns of behavior which set that culture's behavior apart from another's. Sometimes this is good, sometimes it's bad, and sometimes it just is. To deny these differences seems silly.

I think its just a defence mechanismamong some posters who have to defend all things Thai right or wrong and if something bad happens immediately reach for the but it hapens elsewhere button.

Just discussing this with Thai colleagues - well travelled Thai colleagues - guess what they say?

They do not try to deny it and defend it or blame the victim!

Of course, Prakanong. I would expect them to confirm what you and many other posters have been saying. It's for a very simple reason-because what you are saying is true.

[ColPyat]

So to all who say it is more prevalent in Thailand.....Hogwash...it is human nature

I couldn't disagree with this statement more. Yes, it happens elsewhere, but it doesn't take too much time observing events in the land of smiles to realize that this pattern of violence is indeed more prevalent here.

I don't understand why people seem to bend over backwards to say that Thailand is just like everywhere else in the world when it in fact is not. Asia and the west are different. Then, within these groups their are local patterns of behavior which set that culture's behavior apart from another's. Sometimes this is good, sometimes it's bad, and sometimes it just is. To deny these differences seems silly.

ColPyat,

Good to see you posting again. Where you been?

Got a bit pissed off, and then i was very busy, been down south (very ugly there at the moment).

Anyhow, yes, the defenders of the realm do ignore Thai history regarding violence. There is a clearly established history of state sponsored violence by citizen groups and organisations, countless incidents of gross human rights violations throughout its modern history, and presently this trend is unchanged, the latest having been the drug war killings supported by almost all sectors of society, and the next such incident is already in the making (chances are that within a few months this will unfortunately be public knowledge, and adding to the long list).

As a society, both by the state, and by its people, Thais do very much tend to use violence as an established form of conflict solution. It may be a bit of an extrapolation, but when the state uses such, then it will also lead to accepting violence as a norm in personal matters.

The difficulty here for many is that there is a widely propagated view of the land of smile, both propagated to outsiders and to its own citizens, which is a facade of how Thailand, or its established powers, prefer to view themselves, yet mostly in contradiction to a much darker reality.

[duratanium]

The local paper in Nakhon Sawan says... in brief ...

There were 3 fights in total.

On the night of the 20th there was a fight between a number of Thais that was controlled by the local police.

Things had just quietened down when some Farangs sat at a table near a group of Thais who had been involved in the earlier fighting.

One of the Farang had been involved in an earlier incident on the 15th at the Pimarn hotel with a thai or thais that were sat nearby.

It reads that the Thais (soldiers) - numbering 30 started the fight with 4 Farang (English). One of the Farang needed hospital treatment for serious injuries.

The local police chief has said that the soldiers are the same as dogs as they fought the farang. Seems earlier it was Thai v Thai in roughly equal numbers. But when it came to fighting with the Farang the numbers of Thais swelled to 30 and the police said that the soldiers should now be made to lose their jobs, houses etc as they do not want Farangs to see or to be subjected to this sort of treatment in Nakhon Sawan.

Many of the locals seem to believe that Farangs from the Chang Brewery were involved and as the g/f was at the salon people continued saying they thought it was yeramans ( Germans) and family have been on the phone saying they had heard the same, though the paper does state they are English and one a goalkeeper coaching football here in Thailand.

[gburns57au]

So to all who say it is more prevalent in Thailand.....Hogwash...it is human nature

I couldn't disagree with this statement more. Yes, it happens elsewhere, but it doesn't take too much time observing events in the land of smiles to realize that this pattern of violence is indeed more prevalent here.

I don't understand why people seem to bend over backwards to say that Thailand is just like everywhere else in the world when it in fact is not. Asia and the west are different. Then, within these groups their are local patterns of behavior which set that culture's behavior apart from another's. Sometimes this is good, sometimes it's bad, and sometimes it just is. To deny these differences seems silly.

ColPyat,

Good to see you posting again. Where you been?

I think its just a defence mechanismamong some posters who have to defend all things Thai right or wrong and if something bad happens immediately reach for the but it hapens elsewhere button.

Just discussing this with Thai colleagues - well travelled Thai colleagues - guess what they say?

They do not try to deny it and defend it or blame the victim!

Actually if you have read any of my other posts you will see that I dont automatically defend Thais...and I dont have a "it happens elsewhere button" either.

But I do get a bit peeved when I hear people stereotype Thais as this or that without any real foundation. You people seem to think that because you are farangs that you can buttonhole all Thais into one group or another.

If I saw a bunch of marines beat up a couple of guys, would I be right to assume that all Americans did that and that they were cowards because they did...No I wouldnt and you shouldnt either. If I saw a bunch of Brit lager louts in a bar brawl, would it be fair of me to assume that all Brits acted in that manner....No it wouldnt. And the same shouldnt be thought of the Thais either.

It still feels a lot safer to walk down a Pattaya street or a Bangkok street then it is to walk down some streets in London, LA, New York or even Sydney.

So guys take your fingers off the "everything is best in the West" button and take off your "I'm a superior farang glasses"....If Thailand is so dangerous compared to your home countries, why bother getting on the plane...stay home where mobs of cowardly Thai men wont attack you.

[ColPyat]

It still feels a lot safer to walk down a Pattaya street or a Bangkok street then it is to walk down some streets in London, LA, New York or even Sydney.

So guys take your fingers off the "everything is best in the West" button and take off your "I'm a superior farang glasses"....If Thailand is so dangerous compared to your home countries, why bother getting on the plane...stay home where mobs of cowardly Thai men wont attack you.

It doesn't really help when narrow personal impressions take over dry facts.

I guess if you walk down Disneyland you would not feel threatened at all either. That though does not exactly prove the safety issues of the whole of the US.

There are many streets of Bangkok and surroundings that hold no attraction whatsoever to the visitor, are areas of migration, and can be as violent as as the areas back home you do not feel safe.

Look simply at historical facts of the many gross human rights violations, how the Thai state has sponsored extreme violence of citizen groups against perceived threads unlike most western countries in recent post war history. This history is far from over, as the drug war killings have proven clearly (unlike you adhere to the simplification that it only was Thaksin).

Violence here as a accepted form of conflict management is a norm, more than in most western societies.

[vermin on arrival]

gburns,

To say that it is more prevalent here is not to stereotype. Are you saying that making any kind of generalization about how things happen is wrong?

I don't think that the many people who are disagreeing with you are doing it based on this one incident. Most of the people who are making these comments have lived in Thailand for a great deal of time. It is not based on the fact that we are superior "farangs"; it is based on our observations and contact with Thais or other long term expats. This is not a knee jerk reaction to one incident.

I also feel much safer walking in Bangkok than I would in my home town of NYC(to be honest after so many years abroad the place gives me bad vibes), that doesn't invalidate what has been said about how violence is when it occurs here, which is certainly much more frequent than the powers that be want foreigners to know. I make it a point to avoid any conflict here because I know how badly it will turn out for me. This does not mean that the people who are pointing this out think that everything is best in the west. Now who is the one jumping to conclusions?

I live in BKK so for me getting on plane is only what I do when I'm going back to the US to visit my parents or when I'm coming home. Please spare me reading another post telling people who notice something that they find disagreeable about Thailand should go home. I'm just as sick about reading posts such as this.

For one who is criticizing others for acting "superior", you sure seem to take similar tone in your posts on this thread. It is true that I haven't taken note of any prior posting pattern of yours, and was not blanket criticizing everything you said, but I do really disagree with your viewpoint on this.

Edited July 20, 2007 by vermin on arrival

[stumonster]

Many of the locals seem to believe that Farangs from the Chang Brewery

though the paper does state they are English and one a goalkeeper coaching football here in Thailand.

doesn't Chang sponsor a team in england ?

[gburns57au]

It still feels a lot safer to walk down a Pattaya street or a Bangkok street then it is to walk down some streets in London, LA, New York or even Sydney.

So guys take your fingers off the "everything is best in the West" button and take off your "I'm a superior farang glasses"....If Thailand is so dangerous compared to your home countries, why bother getting on the plane...stay home where mobs of cowardly Thai men wont attack you.

It doesn't really help when narrow personal impressions take over dry facts.

I guess if you walk down Disneyland you would not feel threatened at all either. That though does not exactly prove the safety issues of the whole of the US.

There are many streets of Bangkok and surroundings that hold no attraction whatsoever to the visitor, are areas of migration, and can be as violent as as the areas back home you do not feel safe.

Look simply at historical facts of the many gross human rights violations, how the Thai state has sponsored extreme violence of citizen groups against perceived threads unlike most western countries in recent post war history. This history is far from over, as the drug war killings have proven clearly (unlike you adhere to the simplification that it only was Thaksin).

Violence here as a accepted form of conflict management is a norm, more than in most western societies.

While I am looking at the historical facts of human rights violations can I look at the US chapter....two subchapters I want to read are the ones regarding the African American (cant say that other word) and the Native Indians....Oh hang on you anticipated that, didnt you? with the Post war thingy....that leaves me with Abu Grahbi, African Americans and the Native Indians.

Are you saying that I think the drug war killings was only Thaksin...It was the government that ordered the crackdown on drugs, Thaksin was the leader of that government...the crims had a choice...surrender or fight. Over 2000 made a choice to fight, and of course no police were killed during that operation was there??

Violence is not the accepted form of conflict resolution in Thailand...the average Thai doesnt resort to violence because of the loss of face...sure there are groups that do use violence to resolve situations, such as the younger blokes in gangs, the mafia/underworld types etc...pretty much the same sort of people who use violence as conflict resolution in other countries.

You blokes seem to think that Asia and Thailand are uncivilised, lawless societies...when in reality there is more violence and lawlessness in the US and UK than in Asia. Even here in Oz I know of UK migrants whose objective of a good night out is to drink as much as possible and fight as much as possible.

BTW I have heard there is a lot of pickpockets in Disneyland....is that true ??

[ColPyat]

While I am looking at the historical facts of human rights violations can I look at the US chapter....two subchapters I want to read are the ones regarding the African American (cant say that other word) and the Native Indians....Oh hang on you anticipated that, didnt you? with the Post war thingy....that leaves me with Abu Grahbi, African Americans and the Native Indians.

Are you saying that I think the drug war killings was only Thaksin...It was the government that ordered the crackdown on drugs, Thaksin was the leader of that government...the crims had a choice...surrender or fight. Over 2000 made a choice to fight, and of course no police were killed during that operation was there??

Violence is not the accepted form of conflict resolution in Thailand...the average Thai doesnt resort to violence because of the loss of face...sure there are groups that do use violence to resolve situations, such as the younger blokes in gangs, the mafia/underworld types etc...pretty much the same sort of people who use violence as conflict resolution in other countries.

You blokes seem to think that Asia and Thailand are uncivilised, lawless societies...when in reality there is more violence and lawlessness in the US and UK than in Asia. Even here in Oz I know of UK migrants whose objective of a good night out is to drink as much as possible and fight as much as possible.

BTW I have heard there is a lot of pickpockets in Disneyland....is that true ??

I am not going into the US issue (i don't want to be punished for another perceived anti-American rant).

As to Thai history and violent forms of conflict solutions by state sponsored groups, i would suggest to have a look into the history of the Krating Daeng, Navapol, the village scouts, task force 80, etc. Can you tell me please another country (especially in the west) which is using such shady militias and paramilitary organisations to the extend Thailand does? In a few months time, when safe enough, i will tell you the names of the new militia groups sponsored by some quarters of the Thai power establishment now active in extrajudical killings.

I hope you are able to see the clear correlation between violence of the state and the individual here, regardless of Buddhist morals and perceived face issues (which are also solved more often than not violently).

As to the drugwar killings - they are still not investigated. You are very mistaken if you think think that this was just a Thaksin policy, ordered from top down. It was far more complex, and included individual police officers, extrajudical action taken by the good citizens of Thailand, shady death squads often not under control of Thaksin, a general free for all. As much as i would wish - there is no proof linking Thaksin directly to the killings, and i have very serious doubts that the drugwar as it was performed was even initiated by Thaksin. Yes, Thaksin has made rather astonishing remarks condoning the killings, but so have members of the Buddhist establishment and other power institutions of Thailand.

Basically - the drugwar killings were a socially accepted form of combating the drug issue, very much along the tradition of violently fighting perceived and real threads to Thai society, a tradition that has started before Thaksin, and that, away from the public eye - continues to this very day.

Alone the acceptance of this, the lack of public protest, should be an indicator for my theory that in Thailand violence is more acceptable as a form of conflict solution than in most western societies.

And as statistics go, the only statistic i am aware on this topic, often contested, the nationmaster statistic, does though show a clear picture of violent crime in Thailand and the rest of the world. And i am afraid that this statistic does prove your theory wrong. If you can cite another statistic please, that proves your point, than please do so. But as long as you try to convince with personal impressions, than i must say that my personal impressions are supported by the nation master statistic (and many other related papers).

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_...s-with-firearms

[DamianMavis]

It still feels a lot safer to walk down a Pattaya street or a Bangkok street then it is to walk down some streets in London, LA, New York or even Sydney.

So guys take your fingers off the "everything is best in the West" button and take off your "I'm a superior farang glasses"....If Thailand is so dangerous compared to your home countries, why bother getting on the plane...stay home where mobs of cowardly Thai men wont attack you.

It doesn't really help when narrow personal impressions take over dry facts.

I guess if you walk down Disneyland you would not feel threatened at all either. That though does not exactly prove the safety issues of the whole of the US.

There are many streets of Bangkok and surroundings that hold no attraction whatsoever to the visitor, are areas of migration, and can be as violent as as the areas back home you do not feel safe.

Look simply at historical facts of the many gross human rights violations, how the Thai state has sponsored extreme violence of citizen groups against perceived threads unlike most western countries in recent post war history. This history is far from over, as the drug war killings have proven clearly (unlike you adhere to the simplification that it only was Thaksin).

Violence here as a accepted form of conflict management is a norm, more than in most western societies.

While I am looking at the historical facts of human rights violations can I look at the US chapter....two subchapters I want to read are the ones regarding the African American (cant say that other word) and the Native Indians....Oh hang on you anticipated that, didnt you? with the Post war thingy....that leaves me with Abu Grahbi, African Americans and the Native Indians.

Are you saying that I think the drug war killings was only Thaksin...It was the government that ordered the crackdown on drugs, Thaksin was the leader of that government...the crims had a choice...surrender or fight. Over 2000 made a choice to fight, and of course no police were killed during that operation was there??

Violence is not the accepted form of conflict resolution in Thailand...the average Thai doesnt resort to violence because of the loss of face...sure there are groups that do use violence to resolve situations, such as the younger blokes in gangs, the mafia/underworld types etc...pretty much the same sort of people who use violence as conflict resolution in other countries.

You blokes seem to think that Asia and Thailand are uncivilised, lawless societies...when in reality there is more violence and lawlessness in the US and UK than in Asia. Even here in Oz I know of UK migrants whose objective of a good night out is to drink as much as possible and fight as much as possible.

BTW I have heard there is a lot of pickpockets in Disneyland....is that true ??

Could you be any more wrong? About the loss of face issue, it is because of the loss of face thing that it is so dangerous here. You can DIE for embarrassing someone or making them feel insulted! The one thing I try to avoid AT ALL COSTS in this country is to embarass a Thai guy that is with his friends. I dont know how many times Ive swallowed my pride, kept smiling and apologised for things I am not to blame for. Keeps me alive and maimed free. I watched a Thai man try to run his girlfriend over repeatedly with his scooter while Thai people stood around doing nothing. I was a split second from dropping the guy when my friend held me back, he told me if I got involved and embarrassed him, making him lose face, he would come back to this corner every night for a month waiting for me with a gun. I believed him.

ColPyat, youre my fracking hero man, intelligent and knowledgeable, what else could I want from a poster?

Damian

[pipchatel]

All very interesting stuff and good to read what you guys are thinking. Still with this thread, about 2 yrs back, in Hua Hin. My self and my little Thai Family (4 off) were having a nice meal. we were above road level, nice view down on the passing world. Suddenly we see about 3 young Thai men having a lot of verbal with 4 young Farangs. Mostly at this point just slang, shouting, whilst walking away from each other. Suddenly a nerve must have been struck, the Thais attacked the Farangs very violently. of course we cannot know what was said, but does it mater? Glances, bad words under the breath, Bad body langauge, drink talking?

I worry this will be common event in the years to come, it doesnt look good to with the 'qaulity' of young farangs arriving in the Land of Smiles!!!!!!!! Its just a beginning!

[gburns57au]

gburns,

To say that it is more prevalent here is not to stereotype. Are you saying that making any kind of generalization about how things happen is wrong?

I don't think that the many people who are disagreeing with you are doing it based on this one incident. Most of the people who are making these comments have lived in Thailand for a great deal of time. It is not based on the fact that we are superior "farangs"; it is based on our observations and contact with Thais or other long term expats. This is not a knee jerk reaction to one incident.

I also feel much safer walking in Bangkok than I would in my home town of NYC(to be honest after so many years abroad the place gives me bad vibes), that doesn't invalidate what has been said about how violence is when it occurs here, which is certainly much more frequent than the powers that be want foreigners to know. I make it a point to avoid any conflict here because I know how badly it will turn out for me. This does not mean that the people who are pointing this out think that everything is best in the west. Now who is the one jumping to conclusions?

I live in BKK so for me getting on plane is only what I do when I'm going back to the US to visit my parents or when I'm coming home. Please spare me reading another post telling people who notice something that they find disagreeable about Thailand should go home. I'm just as sick about reading posts such as this.

For one who is criticizing others for acting "superior", you sure seem to take similar tone in your posts on this thread. It is true that I haven't taken note of any prior posting pattern of yours, and was not blanket criticizing everything you said, but I do really disagree with your viewpoint on this.

The earlier stages of this thread was full of stereotyping and racist remarks against Thais and Thailand to the extent that a mod deleted posts and issued a warning. This thread has now moved on from that a bit but I feel it still borders towards it in a non objectionable way.

My own experience with Thais goes back a fair time as well...I too have made observations and experienced many aspects of Thai life. To give you an idea of that...I used to travel to an area in the northwest at a time when a farang was a novelty up there...now that same amphur has more than twenty farangs living there. I speak read and write the lingo and have learnt a fair bit about Thai history and culture. I have spent time with the Thai people in their homes and lifestyle, not my lifestyle in their home. From this I have gained a great respect and love for the Thais.

I dont say that violence doesnt occur in Thailand...that would be naive and untrue...of course it does but not to the level that people here seem to think it does...not every fight with a thai man will result in a mob coming after you or his mates suddenly buying in, just the same as would happen in other countries. I feel that if I got into a fight, say for instance, in a pub in the UK. I feel that I would be more at risk of being mob attacked by the guys mates then I would in Thailand. Many of my UK mates here have confirmed this.

Ask yourself why you feel safer in BKK then NYC ?? because on the balance, you know you are less likely to encounter trouble in BKK than in NYC. The powers that be in Thailand do play up the image of the LOS...they need the tourist dollars, it would be silly to scare people away wouldnt it ?? But that doesnt mean that Thailand is anymore violent than the US, UK, Oz or where ever.

And it peeves me when I hear people gabbing off about how bad Thailand is when they have made the choice to live there.

[qualtrough]

There are many streets of Bangkok and surroundings that hold no attraction whatsoever to the visitor, are areas of migration, and can be as violent as as the areas back home you do not feel safe.

ColPyat, you have said this repeatedly, but it is just not true. There are no parts of Bangkok with the levels of violent crime, particularly random crime against strangers, that could even hold a candle to the levels found in the no-go areas of almost any US city. If you can provide some statistical evidence to show that the level of violent street crime in any area of Bangkok is even close to the level found in the no-go areas to be found in Camden, Detroit, Washington D.C., L.A., Oakland, Miami, etc. I would love to see it. Thailand indeed is a violent country, but comparing the violence to that back home is like comparing apples to oranges. The majority of Thai violence is directed at each other, and usually at people who know each other, family, students, business partners, and so on. Much of it revolves around heavy drinking and drug use. Despite the anecdotal evidence we see on the forum, exceedingly little of it is directed at foreigners. In fact, given the gross disparity in income levels one would expect to see far more farangs falling victim to violent crime. Forum members are far better off worrying about the deadly traffic here than worrying about being the victim of a violent crime.

[pipchatel]

I don't think that the many people who are disagreeing with you are doing it based on this one incident. Most of the people who are making these comments have lived in Thailand for a great deal of time. It is not based on the fact that we are superior "farangs"; it is based on our observations and contact with Thais or other long term expats. This is not a knee jerk reaction to one incident.

Pip here

Great comment A lot of long term xpats(me 14 yrs) we watch we see. Mostly I i feel safer here than I would in the U K on a Saturday night in your average high street. But the point is CULTURE you are going to get a big clash of Culture. It happens

in Spain with young Britts, it will happen here and The Thais wont like it one bit

[gburns57au]

I am not going into the US issue (i don't want to be punished for another perceived anti-American rant).

As to Thai history and violent forms of conflict solutions by state sponsored groups, i would suggest to have a look into the history of the Krating Daeng, Navapol, the village scouts, task force 80, etc. Can you tell me please another country (especially in the west) which is using such shady militias and paramilitary organisations to the extend Thailand does? In a few months time, when safe enough, i will tell you the names of the new militia groups sponsored by some quarters of the Thai power establishment now active in extrajudical killings.

I hope you are able to see the clear correlation between violence of the state and the individual here, regardless of Buddhist morals and perceived face issues (which are also solved more often than not violently).

As to the drugwar killings - they are still not investigated. You are very mistaken if you think think that this was just a Thaksin policy, ordered from top down. It was far more complex, and included individual police officers, extrajudical action taken by the good citizens of Thailand, shady death squads often not under control of Thaksin, a general free for all. As much as i would wish - there is no proof linking Thaksin directly to the killings, and i have very serious doubts that the drugwar as it was performed was even initiated by Thaksin. Yes, Thaksin has made rather astonishing remarks condoning the killings, but so have members of the Buddhist establishment and other power institutions of Thailand.

Basically - the drugwar killings were a socially accepted form of combating the drug issue, very much along the tradition of violently fighting perceived and real threads to Thai society, a tradition that has started before Thaksin, and that, away from the public eye - continues to this very day.

Alone the acceptance of this, the lack of public protest, should be an indicator for my theory that in Thailand violence is more acceptable as a form of conflict solution than in most western societies.

And as statistics go, the only statistic i am aware on this topic, often contested, the nationmaster statistic, does though show a clear picture of violent crime in Thailand and the rest of the world. And i am afraid that this statistic does prove your theory wrong. If you can cite another statistic please, that proves your point, than please do so. But as long as you try to convince with personal impressions, than i must say that my personal impressions are supported by the nation master statistic (and many other related papers).

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_...s-with-firearms

First two questions...

When did this turn into paramilitary groups and militia discussion...or even human rights issues...we are talking everyday on the street violence involving non militia types except for the issue of the guys involved in this attack be4ing soldiers of the Thai army....Very good clouding of an issue here...I am not getting into that line here as it is not part of my discuusion.

Also when did this turn into a murder with firearms here...so please, your quoted stats have little relevence...another good cloud the issue attempt.

Also I am not getting into a D&M on the drug war as this is moving away from the original discussion. Suffice to say I didnt say it was on Thaksins orders...I merely hinted that as the head of the government he was a party to it.

[gburns57au]

Could you be any more wrong? About the loss of face issue, it is because of the loss of face thing that it is so dangerous here. You can DIE for embarrassing someone or making them feel insulted! The one thing I try to avoid AT ALL COSTS in this country is to embarass a Thai guy that is with his friends. I dont know how many times Ive swallowed my pride, kept smiling and apologised for things I am not to blame for. Keeps me alive and maimed free. I watched a Thai man try to run his girlfriend over repeatedly with his scooter while Thai people stood around doing nothing. I was a split second from dropping the guy when my friend held me back, he told me if I got involved and embarrassed him, making him lose face, he would come back to this corner every night for a month waiting for me with a gun. I believed him.

ColPyat, youre my fracking hero man, intelligent and knowledgeable, what else could I want from a poster?

Damian

Yes you can have problems if you cause someone to lose face.....that is not what I said....

I said that the Thai would lose face because he has resorted to violence or to anger...this would cause him to lose face.

It cuts more than one way

[gburns57au]

I don't think that the many people who are disagreeing with you are doing it based on this one incident. Most of the people who are making these comments have lived in Thailand for a great deal of time. It is not based on the fact that we are superior "farangs"; it is based on our observations and contact with Thais or other long term expats. This is not a knee jerk reaction to one incident.

Pip here

Great comment A lot of long term xpats(me 14 yrs) we watch we see. Mostly I i feel safer here than I would in the U K on a Saturday night in your average high street. But the point is CULTURE you are going to get a big clash of Culture. It happens

in Spain with young Britts, it will happen here and The Thais wont like it one bit

You dont have to be an expat to have time and experience in Thailand....some of the ex pats I have seen still wouldnt know their Thai a$$ for their Thai elbow.

[gburns57au]

There are many streets of Bangkok and surroundings that hold no attraction whatsoever to the visitor, are areas of migration, and can be as violent as as the areas back home you do not feel safe.

ColPyat, you have said this repeatedly, but it is just not true. There are no parts of Bangkok with the levels of violent crime, particularly random crime against strangers, that could even hold a candle to the levels found in the no-go areas of almost any US city. If you can provide some statistical evidence to show that the level of violent street crime in any area of Bangkok is even close to the level found in the no-go areas to be found in Camden, Detroit, Washington D.C., L.A., Oakland, Miami, etc. I would love to see it. Thailand indeed is a violent country, but comparing the violence to that back home is like comparing apples to oranges. The majority of Thai violence is directed at each other, and usually at people who know each other, family, students, business partners, and so on. Much of it revolves around heavy drinking and drug use. Despite the anecdotal evidence we see on the forum, exceedingly little of it is directed at foreigners. In fact, given the gross disparity in income levels one would expect to see far more farangs falling victim to violent crime. Forum members are far better off worrying about the deadly traffic here than worrying about being the victim of a violent crime.

The cavalry has arrived...was starting to feel out numbered here...a bit like these guys that are going to be attacked by mobs of Thai men everytime they turn a corner.........

BTW I have 3 day 14 hour shift starting at 6am tomorrow....it is nearly 11pm now...time for bed...so I am retiring, not from the discussion but for the night.

Edited July 20, 2007 by gburns57au

[vermin on arrival]

You can DIE for embarrassing someone or making them feel insulted! The one thing I try to avoid AT ALL COSTS in this country is to embarass a Thai guy that is with his friends

Yes, Damien, I too would do anything in my power to avoid this. I think the results would be disastrous.

My impression is that there is less casual violence than you might get in the US, but much more serious violence over politics and business. However, ColPyat does make a good point when mentioning the nationmaster statistics on violence. If these stats are in fact true, it does paint a pretty bad picture of the levels of violence here.

If you are around some of these strong men when they are drinking their whiskey or lao kaao, however, you might find yourself embroiled in something very bad if you don't mind your p's and q's. I would make it a point to make myself scarce if they were deep in their cups. Unfortunately, it seems that they are drinking most every night. At least, that was how it was on my soi.

gburns,

I think I wouldn't want to get into a pub fight in Britain either. I missed some of the more offensive posts which were deleted by the mods. Please don't paint mine with the same brush.

Just because you chose to live somewhere doesn't mean you have to like everything, does it?

[gburns57au]

You can DIE for embarrassing someone or making them feel insulted! The one thing I try to avoid AT ALL COSTS in this country is to embarass a Thai guy that is with his friends

Yes, Damien, I too would do anything in my power to avoid this. I think the results would be disastrous.

My impression is that there is less casual violence than you might get in the US, but much more serious violence over politics and business. However, ColPyat does make a good point when mentioning the nationmaster statistics on violence. If these stats are in fact true, it does paint a pretty bad picture of the levels of violence here.

If you are around some of these strong men when they are drinking their whiskey or lao kaao, however, you might find yourself embroiled in something very bad if you don't mind your p's and q's. I would make it a point to make myself scarce if they were deep in their cups. Unfortunately, it seems that they are drinking most every night. At least, that was how it was on my soi.

gburns,

I think I wouldn't want to get into a pub fight in Britain either. I missed some of the more offensive posts which were deleted by the mods. Please don't paint mine with the same brush.

Just because you chose to live somewhere doesn't mean you have to like everything, does it?

Actually I think that this stat is more relevent......from the same source if you please

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ass-crime-assaults

touche methinks.....

my last word for the night...cyas all later

Edited July 20, 2007 by gburns57au

[ColPyat]

There are many streets of Bangkok and surroundings that hold no attraction whatsoever to the visitor, are areas of migration, and can be as violent as as the areas back home you do not feel safe.

ColPyat, you have said this repeatedly, but it is just not true. There are no parts of Bangkok with the levels of violent crime, particularly random crime against strangers, that could even hold a candle to the levels found in the no-go areas of almost any US city. If you can provide some statistical evidence to show that the level of violent street crime in any area of Bangkok is even close to the level found in the no-go areas to be found in Camden, Detroit, Washington D.C., L.A., Oakland, Miami, etc. I would love to see it. Thailand indeed is a violent country, but comparing the violence to that back home is like comparing apples to oranges. The majority of Thai violence is directed at each other, and usually at people who know each other, family, students, business partners, and so on. Much of it revolves around heavy drinking and drug use. Despite the anecdotal evidence we see on the forum, exceedingly little of it is directed at foreigners. In fact, given the gross disparity in income levels one would expect to see far more farangs falling victim to violent crime. Forum members are far better off worrying about the deadly traffic here than worrying about being the victim of a violent crime.

Well, i have been many times in Navanakorn, spend years working in Samut Prakan, particularly Samlong Dai, months in Rama 2 area. Those areas are extremely violent. In my years working there i have seen less than 5 farang there.

The reason that hardly ever foreigners are affected there is simply because they don't go there as there is nothing of any attraction there. Just walk around Navanakorn at night, or housing estates such as White House, go around Soi Wat Bang Hua Sueah, or Soi Suan Som in Samlong Dai.

Yes, most of that violence is Thai against Thai, naturally, for lack of foreigners. But if you spend some considerable time in those areas, you will see it. Go there at night, if you don't believe me.

We are not just talking about violence directed at foreigners, but violence in Thailand in general. The present case of this topic is simply a case where foreigners were affected by everyday violence of a violent society. That's it.

[ColPyat]

I am not going into the US issue (i don't want to be punished for another perceived anti-American rant).

As to Thai history and violent forms of conflict solutions by state sponsored groups, i would suggest to have a look into the history of the Krating Daeng, Navapol, the village scouts, task force 80, etc. Can you tell me please another country (especially in the west) which is using such shady militias and paramilitary organisations to the extend Thailand does? In a few months time, when safe enough, i will tell you the names of the new militia groups sponsored by some quarters of the Thai power establishment now active in extrajudical killings.

I hope you are able to see the clear correlation between violence of the state and the individual here, regardless of Buddhist morals and perceived face issues (which are also solved more often than not violently).

As to the drugwar killings - they are still not investigated. You are very mistaken if you think think that this was just a Thaksin policy, ordered from top down. It was far more complex, and included individual police officers, extrajudical action taken by the good citizens of Thailand, shady death squads often not under control of Thaksin, a general free for all. As much as i would wish - there is no proof linking Thaksin directly to the killings, and i have very serious doubts that the drugwar as it was performed was even initiated by Thaksin. Yes, Thaksin has made rather astonishing remarks condoning the killings, but so have members of the Buddhist establishment and other power institutions of Thailand.

Basically - the drugwar killings were a socially accepted form of combating the drug issue, very much along the tradition of violently fighting perceived and real threads to Thai society, a tradition that has started before Thaksin, and that, away from the public eye - continues to this very day.

Alone the acceptance of this, the lack of public protest, should be an indicator for my theory that in Thailand violence is more acceptable as a form of conflict solution than in most western societies.

And as statistics go, the only statistic i am aware on this topic, often contested, the nationmaster statistic, does though show a clear picture of violent crime in Thailand and the rest of the world. And i am afraid that this statistic does prove your theory wrong. If you can cite another statistic please, that proves your point, than please do so. But as long as you try to convince with personal impressions, than i must say that my personal impressions are supported by the nation master statistic (and many other related papers).

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_...s-with-firearms

First two questions...

When did this turn into paramilitary groups and militia discussion...or even human rights issues...we are talking everyday on the street violence involving non militia types except for the issue of the guys involved in this attack be4ing soldiers of the Thai army....Very good clouding of an issue here...I am not getting into that line here as it is not part of my discuusion.

Also when did this turn into a murder with firearms here...so please, your quoted stats have little relevence...another good cloud the issue attempt.

Also I am not getting into a D&M on the drug war as this is moving away from the original discussion. Suffice to say I didnt say it was on Thaksins orders...I merely hinted that as the head of the government he was a party to it.

It turned into these topics when i attempted to prove that there are very logical reasons behind the violence here, and that violence here in society is established on many levels, and therefore became an accepted norm on most levels of Thai society, instead of solely remaining with a narrow exchange of personal experiences. I do refuse to accept the explanation of many people here that border on racism, explanations such as Thais being that way because they are somewhat different from the rest of humanity. My explanation is that there is a history behind this.

If citizens are taught again and again that violence is an accepted form of conflict solution, are armed by the state, sponsored by the state, at times even excused by the clergy, can murder with impunity at certain times of national crises, then this will also affect inter personal dealings. And especially when there is a prevalence of informal networks of power over due process then this is easily embedded into social norms.

As to the nationmaster statistic on assaults - it is about reported assaults, not on unreported assaults, or assaults dealt with informally at police stations through payments to the victims and police, which is very much the norm here with minor incidents. Most assaults i have seen have not been officially reported, but were solved informally.

A murder though is far more difficult not to report as such, even though i have seen this happening here as well.

[DamianMavis]

I dont know everyone elses excuse but I'm here following my dreams and career, I dont have to feel safe here to follow my dreams, and I certainly don't hate it here, but ya, this place is scary.

Damian

[qualtrough]

Well, i have been many times in Navanakorn, spend years working in Samut Prakan, particularly Samlong Dai, months in Rama 2 area. Those areas are extremely violent. In my years working there i have seen less than 5 farang there.

The reason that hardly ever foreigners are affected there is simply because they don't go there as there is nothing of any attraction there. Just walk around Navanakorn at night, or housing estates such as White House, go around Soi Wat Bang Hua Sueah, or Soi Suan Som in Samlong Dai.

Yes, most of that violence is Thai against Thai, naturally, for lack of foreigners. But if you spend some considerable time in those areas, you will see it. Go there at night, if you don't believe me.

We are not just talking about violence directed at foreigners, but violence in Thailand in general. The present case of this topic is simply a case where foreigners were affected by everyday violence of a violent society. That's it.

Extremely violent? How many drive-by shootings do they average per day? How about car-jackings? Interesting you advise going there at night, which implies that they must not be so bad during the day. If that is the case it tells me right off the bat that they can't be anywhere near as bad as the areas I mentioned in my post. Without any stats to back it up I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

[opebo]

I don't disagree that Thais are prone to fighting in groups, but I did once see a Thai man attack a farang alone.

It was a funny sight. I was walking along Beach Road looking for girls, when I saw a drunken yob covered with tattoos being trailed by a small Thai man. This went on for a full minute or so, then the Thai picked his moment, ran up to the yob, and knocked him down and beat him furiously for just 20 seconds or so. He then walked across the street to the beach promenade, took off his shirt, and walked away normally. (presumably he thought a farang would identify his shirt more easily than his face!)

I'm a great coward, but also a loner, so I try very hard to avoid any conflicts in Thailand. I think their mob tendencies have more to do with their group-mentality than their corwardice.

[vermin on arrival]

Extremely violent? How many drive-by shootings do they average per day? How about car-jackings? Interesting you advise going there at night, which implies that they must not be so bad during the day. If that is the case it tells me right off the bat that they can't be anywhere near as bad as the areas I mentioned in my post. Without any stats to back it up I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Even the really bad neighborhoods in the states can be walked about in the daytime. When I was younger and still lived in the States(NYC), my work took me to Harlem, the South Bronx and ,yipes, the worst place I've ever been to, East New York. I went in the daytime, and eveytime this white boy had no problem. It was when the sun went down that you needed to make yourself scarce.

[KhaoNiaw]

So a quick summary of this story would seem to be that a gang of tanked up squaddies attacked a smaller group, including a number of farangs. Some of the tanked up squaddies may or may not have had an issue with some of the smaller group earlier but were evidently on the lookout for a punchup. And they even took it to the hospital.

The only reason the story is newsworthy here is because of the farang involvement and even more so because the Thai press has found a link to a Premier league football club. To anyone who has lived in a barracks town in the UK, the story might not sound unfamiliar, and the continuation at the hospital might warrant a mention in the local newspaper.

[ColPyat]

Extremely violent? How many drive-by shootings do they average per day? How about car-jackings? Interesting you advise going there at night, which implies that they must not be so bad during the day. If that is the case it tells me right off the bat that they can't be anywhere near as bad as the areas I mentioned in my post. Without any stats to back it up I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

In the areas i mentioned drive by shootings are very common. Nowadays shotguns are back in fashion, available between 2000 and 5000 Baht from the work shops. Almost every day you have knifings and gangfights with machetes and samurai swords. Few carjackings, but many many motorcycle jackings.

And different than the US, where you have vast stretches of rural areas which are very safe, most rural areas in Thailand are not exactly safe and violence free (attend a few concerts and village fairs, and you will see). Many of Thailand's border areas are extremely unsafe (stay for some time in forward army positions there, where tourists and most expats don't go...), the south is slipping into civil war and it is getting insanely dangerous to move around there.

[CarlBkk]

to the non-believers: how many 1-on-1 fights (or even 2-on-2, 3-on3, 2-on-1) do you see in Thailand? Answer: out of a lot of fights I've seen, none had those ratios of Thais. For that reason, I may be more likely to end up in a fight in the UK pub at the weekend without antagonising someone, but I'd feel way more confident about getting away from it standing or not being seriously hurt. In Thailand, one-on-one, I would stand up for myself. However, most of us on this forum know that just wouldn't happen unless you're together in a locked room.

It's always groups of several against one/smaller groups here, otherwise it's nothing or come back later.

Same in the UK with the Chinese. Always fight together against whoever...Thais, British, Blacks. At a regular Asian clubnight I saw a sea of Chinese attack the only 2 black guys in there without stopping. All because one of the black guys tried to talk to a Chinese girl. The bouncers couldn't stop them all....about 10 bouncers did their best, but they didn't go out easily. That's just one of many times, so with the risk of stereotyping...the "maa moo" or unfair advantage mentiality is prevalently Asian.

[canuckamuck]

The majority of this discussion is opinions with no stats or evidence to back anything up. I believe that makes this irresolvable. The violence and crime statistics given are nearly useless because reporting methods are inconsistent. For example from the link http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ass-crime-assaults the American statistics of assaults are 4 times higher than any other country, 100 times higher than Thailand. The problem is what constitutes an assault in the US is quite different than in developing countries. Reports of assaults are inversely proportional to the expectation of results.

In America you can sue for millions just for burning your tongue on hot coffee, assault can be as little as a harsh word or innuendo. In Thailand assaults aren’t reported because nothing will be done about it. This is same for most of the world.

In Thailand a fight is a fight, not an assault, you can knock around your old lady and nothing will be done about it.

Western violence is often related to criminal or gang activity, Asian violence is more often face or alcohol related. But all bad things happen in both places. If you are a Thai in Thailand, you will see a lot more violence than a farang will. Mob fights are obviously more common in Asia, In the west the concept of a fair fight is more established.

I accept the US might be substantially more violent than Canada, but I have my doubts Canada is ten times more violent than Columbia or Thailand for that matter.