2 hours ago, Georgealbert said:

This is one link to the original CCTV, showing time and date stamp.

 

This is the CCTV footage from the airport itself, that has been used by every news source.

 

The video I posted above is a zoomed version.

 

 

I have looked at the first CCTV that you posted (about 4 seconds long) and I think that it shows the JAL flight landing on top of the Coastguard aircraft. At least that is the way can see and understand it. If I am correct, then the Coastguard aircraft was actually on runway 34R preparing to take off.

 

But it should not have been there at all, as according to the Narita ATC recordings it was only given permission to go to the C5 holding point to stop and wait, and NOT onto the live runway where the JAL flight  was landing.

1 hour ago, billd766 said:

I have looked at the first CCTV that you posted (about 4 seconds long) and I think that it shows the JAL flight landing on top of the Coastguard aircraft. At least that is the way can see and understand it. If I am correct, then the Coastguard aircraft was actually on runway 34R preparing to take off.

 

But it should not have been there at all, as according to the Narita ATC recordings it was only given permission to go to the C5 holding point to stop and wait, and NOT onto the live runway where the JAL flight  was landing.

 

the JAL was already on the ground and then hit the Dash 8, JAL's nose was damaged.
the holding point comes after the touchdown zone.

 

on the attached photo, I marked in blue Charlie 5 (holding point).

the Dash 8 didn't stop at Charlie 5 so it was probably ready to takeoff from the point I marked red.

 

the JAL probably touched down in the area I marked green.

 

brilliant evacuation.

good plane design - 20%

good crew training - 20%

60% credit : Japanese passengers whose discipline saved their own lives.
Japanese people instead of "unique personalities" and karens "you cannot make me". Japanese people are the most disciplined and diligent in the world when it comes to safety procedures.

 

want to see an American plane evacuation ?

 

Edited January 4, 20242 yr by tgw

11 hours ago, Georgealbert said:

Appears that the captain of the coastguard plane has said to investigators that he was given permission to enter the runway.

 

This is not shown in the Ministry of Transportation, released translation of ATC messages.

 

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/police-probe-possible-negligence-tokyo-runway-collision-2024-01-03/

Yes, as reported as initial statement by a Coast Guard representative. It might have been the shocked and ”seriously injured” captains theory of the situation immediately after the incident. 
 

 

Sources: Pilot seemed unaware plane hit by JAL jet at Haneda

THE ASAHI SHIMBUN

January 4, 2024 at 17:21 JST

 

https://www.asahi.com/sp/ajw/articles/15102042

Edited January 4, 20242 yr by Captain Monday

here some footage of the evacuation.

note the difference with the footage I posted before

 

The thing that surprises me most is that this accident did not involve Taiwan's China Airlines.

 

I recall the crashes of China Airlines in Japan and Hong Kong and Taoyuan airports.

 

Sometimes, China Airlines lands upside down in Typhoons when they should not be flying.

 

In the near future, aircraft will not be operated by humans, and then....flying will become even safer than it is now.

 

 

1 hour ago, GammaGlobulin said:

The thing that surprises me most is that this accident did not involve Taiwan's China Airlines.

 

I recall the crashes of China Airlines in Japan and Hong Kong and Taoyuan airports.

 

Sometimes, China Airlines lands upside down in Typhoons when they should not be flying.

 

In the near future, aircraft will not be operated by humans, and then....flying will become even safer than it is now.

 

 

Something I don't have worry about.  At my age I will be long gone when that happens.

3 hours ago, tgw said:

 

the JAL was already on the ground and then hit the Dash 8, JAL's nose was damaged.
the holding point comes after the touchdown zone.

 

on the attached photo, I marked in blue Charlie 5 (holding point).

the Dash 8 didn't stop at Charlie 5 so it was probably ready to takeoff from the point I marked red.

 

the JAL probably touched down in the area I marked green.

 

brilliant evacuation.

good plane design - 20%

good crew training - 20%

60% credit : Japanese passengers whose discipline saved their own lives.
Japanese people instead of "unique personalities" and karens "you cannot make me". Japanese people are the most disciplined and diligent in the world when it comes to safety procedures.

 

Want to see an American plane evacuation ?

 

Agree with your post, but will add that the area you have circled, is only the start of the landing zone, which then extends further down the runway.(See pic below.) reference FAA Aeronautical Information Manual section 3, 2-3- 3 e (effective from 5 October 2023).

.

Captain Monday is a pilot, so would be good to hear his personnel views on this. 

 

From the next morning overhead picture, it appears that the coastguard plane was pushed or dragged a short distance, finishing and burning at C6, next runway entry point.

 

I believe that the JAL aircraft, was still in a nose up position, either on the ground or landing, when the collision occurred, which would account for the limited nose damage, loss of front landing gear and underside damage to the belly of the aircraft.
 

There is unverified video footage from a passenger on another plane on the taxiway, which shows the JAL plane touch down just behind the coastguard plane’s position (coastguard plane can not be seen in video) and then a fireball. I will not post that until I have seen it verified as real.

 

It is also reported that a Notice to Air Missions (NOTAM) message was issued on Dec. 27 to alert pilots to the fact that the warning lights that alert pilots to an open runway were not working at Haneda Airport, at the time of the accident. It remains unclear whether the lack of these warning lights on the runway played a role in accident. Copy of NOTAM below.

6 hours ago, Georgealbert said:

Agree with your post, but will add that the area you have circled, is only the start of the landing zone, which then extends further down the runway.(See pic below.) reference FAA Aeronautical Information Manual section 3, 2-3- 3 e (effective from 5 October 2023).

.

Captain Monday is a pilot, so would be good to hear his personnel views on this. 

 

From the next morning overhead picture, it appears that the coastguard plane was pushed or dragged a short distance, finishing and burning at C6, next runway entry point.

 

I believe that the JAL aircraft, was still in a nose up position, either on the ground or landing, when the collision occurred, which would account for the limited nose damage, loss of front landing gear and underside damage to the belly of the aircraft.
 

There is unverified video footage from a passenger on another plane on the taxiway, which shows the JAL plane touch down just behind the coastguard plane’s position (coastguard plane can not be seen in video) and then a fireball. I will not post that until I have seen it verified as real.

 

It is also reported that a Notice to Air Missions (NOTAM) message was issued on Dec. 27 to alert pilots to the fact that the warning lights that alert pilots to an open runway were not working at Haneda Airport, at the time of the accident. It remains unclear whether the lack of these warning lights on the runway played a role in accident. Copy of NOTAM below.

 

 

yes, I believe you are right

 

The Dash 8 - q300 has a tail height of 7,49m and if this diagram of the A350 is correct, the middle of its nose is 5 meters above ground, so the A350's front wheel would still have been about 2m above ground at impact.

 

Japanese TV also explains the same :

 

 

 

39 minutes ago, tgw said:

 

 

yes, I believe you are right

 

The Dash 8 - q300 has a tail height of 7,49m and if this diagram of the A350 is correct, the middle of its nose is 5 meters above ground, so the A350's front wheel would still have been about 2m above ground at impact.

 

Japanese TV also explains the same :

 

 

 

Seen that and some other coverage by Japanese TV, and even without translation you can follow the discussion.

 

The dash 8 wreckage was removed yesterday and it was planned to start removing the JAL wreckage today, so I assume all 4 black (orange in real life) boxes have been recovered, but have only seen reports of the investigation confirming recovery of the ones from the Dash 8.

 

I think this incident is interesting, as so much data, video, pictures, recordings and information is available in the public domain, you can assemble you own basic investigation, and cross check it with other data, without having to guess, too much.

 

The initial report will be interesting, and should be released in English, but maybe delayed because of the side by side  Tokyo Police criminal investigation.

 

Found this comparison of the A350 and Dash 8

 

 

Edited January 5, 20242 yr by Georgealbert

1 hour ago, Georgealbert said:

I think this incident is interesting, as so much data, video, pictures, recordings and information is available in the public domain, you can assemble you own basic investigation, and cross check it with other data, without having to guess, too much

 

 

I don't know if an incident is interesting when what happened is so obvious.

 

The only aspects that still need investigation are what happened inside the cockpits and how this accident could have been prevented.

 

I have always been interested in cybernetics, and ATC fits this interest pretty well.

 

Seeing how many deadly incidents have been caused by the pilots/ATC not knowing where their plane was, and considering a simple smartphone location service has a precision of 2-3 meters, I have been wondering for years why planes are not equipped with a locator (GPS) and a map (akin to a google maps navigation).

This could even be paired with ground infrastructure to allow for very precise location in realtime and broadcast to both ATC and pilots, as well as plane systems. "Hey, on the runway you want to land on, there is a plane".

It's really baffling.

Edited January 5, 20242 yr by tgw

33 minutes ago, tgw said:

 

I don't know if an incident is interesting when what happened is so obvious.

 

The only aspects that still need investigation are what happened inside the cockpits and how this accident could have been prevented.

 

I have always been interested in cybernetics, and ATC fits this interest pretty well.

 

Seeing how many deadly incidents have been caused by the pilots/ATC not knowing where their plane was, and considering a simple smartphone location service has a precision of 2-3 meters, I have been wondering for years why planes are not equipped with a locator (GPS) and a map (akin to a google maps navigation).

This could even be paired with ground infrastructure to allow for very precise location in realtime and broadcast to both ATC and pilots, as well as plane systems. "Hey, on the runway you want to land on, there is a plane".

It's really baffling.

Yes it looks obvious, but like most major incidents and emergencies, it is not normally a single event that causes the accident, but a series of minor events that lead up-to it.

 

i believe that all commercial planes are fitted with a ADS-B transponder which would have alerted the JAL to the Dash 8 on the runway, and which also allows websites and apps, like flightradar24 to track the planes. Military aircraft are not required to have this type of transponder fitted. That seems very strange when both are using public airspace and airports. 
 

i quote for reference.

 

ADS-B is an acronym for Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast, according to the Federal Aviation Administration. It provides a three-dimensional position and identification of aircraft or other vehicles.

ADS-B transponders automatically broadcast information about an aircraft, including:

 

Global Positioning System location.

Altitude

Ground speed.

 

The information is relayed by satellite-linked GPS to air traffic controllers and other aircraft once every second. It’s considered more accurate than conventional radar systems.

 

The ATC message log, looks very clear when printed on paper, but when you listen to the radio recordings, that were released, you can see how easy it would be to misunderstand or not correctly hear a message.

it also seems that ATC /Tower could communicate on 118.725MHz with planes landing and on 124.350MHz with planes taking off. Both are ATC/Tower frequencies. There is no information saying planes connected to one frequency could hear what was going on on the other. It is common that they can but not always.

 

https://youtu.be/lLMj1BnmNFA?si=3H-N3wQNgjSFc7Ei

11 hours ago, tgw said:

here some footage of the evacuation.

note the difference with the footage I posted before

 

 

Given the circumstances, that is incredibly orderly, although TBF I don't think the US incident was too bad. I've been on many a flight where a normal disembarkation is more chaotic.

6 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

Given the circumstances, that is incredibly orderly, although TBF I don't think the US incident was too bad. I've been on many a flight where a normal disembarkation is more chaotic.

 

I think you will find that any evacuation of this type will be "incredibly orderly" with Japanese people.

 

If you have ever been on a cruise ship, there are mandatory evacuation drills. I had not been slow, but when I reached the rally point, not only did the Japanese have their lifejackets on, but they were neatly standing, almost at attention, in a military style rank & file formation.

15 minutes ago, Georgealbert said:

Yes it looks obvious, but like most major incidents and emergencies, it is not normally a single event that causes the accident, but a series of minor events that lead up-to it.

 

i believe that all commercial planes are fitted with a ADS-B transponder which would have alerted the JAL to the Dash 8 on the runway, and which also allows websites and apps, like flightradar24 to track the planes. Military aircraft are not required to have this type of transponder fitted. That seems very strange when both are using public airspace and airports. 
 

i quote for reference.

 

ADS-B is an acronym for Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast, according to the Federal Aviation Administration. It provides a three-dimensional position and identification of aircraft or other vehicles.

ADS-B transponders automatically broadcast information about an aircraft, including:

 

Global Positioning System location.

Altitude

Ground speed.

 

The information is relayed by satellite-linked GPS to air traffic controllers and other aircraft once every second. It’s considered more accurate than conventional radar systems.

 

The ATC message log, looks very clear when printed on paper, but when you listen to the radio recordings, that were released, you can see how easy it would be to misunderstand or not correctly hear a message.

it also seems that ATC /Tower could communicate on 118.725MHz with planes landing and on 124.350MHz with planes taking off. Both are ATC/Tower frequencies. There is no information saying planes connected to one frequency could hear what was going on on the other. It is common that they can but not always.

 

https://youtu.be/lLMj1BnmNFA?si=3H-N3wQNgjSFc7Ei

 

yes, systems for positioning exist of course, it's the display of the data that isn't handled too well inside planes and ATC, and then the use made by systems of that data.

Catch me up here.  Has there been any reporting (or even speculation) regarding the coast guard pilot in reference to his state of rest, how many hours he had flown/ slept etc? 

 

Not hard to imagine a guy involved in an earthquake relief effort getting dragged out of bed or exceeding hours and making mistakes.

 

10 minutes ago, impulse said:

Catch me up here.  Has there been any reporting (or even speculation) regarding the coast guard pilot in reference to his state of rest, how many hours he had flown/ slept etc? 

 

Not hard to imagine a guy involved in an earthquake relief effort getting dragged out of bed or exceeding hours and making mistakes.

 

these factors always have to be considered in the investigation when there is human error.

 

2 hours ago, impulse said:

Catch me up here. Has there been any reporting (or even speculation) regarding the coast guard pilot in reference to his state of rest, how many hours he had flown/slept etc? 

 

Not hard to imagine a guy involved in an earthquake relief effort getting dragged out of bed or exceeding hours and making mistakes.

 

Very good question. As the Dash 8 did not have a ADS-B transponder, then tracking previous flights on public software is not giving any results.

 

Military restrictions on pilots hours will be different from commercial pilots, and these set by Japanese Coastguard regulations.

 

The Japanese Coastguard did operate 25 fixed wing aircraft, of which 8 were Dash 8s.

 

I have not seen any details issued on the Dash 8 recent flight hours, or any details, including the experience or names, of the pilots involved, maybe have to wait until the initial report. There may also be a conflict on releasing such information due to the Tokyo Police criminal investigation.

 

Ministry of Transportation reported today that works to clear the runway are under way and the flight data recorder of the JAL  A359 was recovered, the CVR has not yet been found. The runway is expected to reopen on 8 January.

 

5 hours ago, tgw said:

 

I think you will find that any evacuation of this type will be "incredibly orderly" with Japanese people.

 

If you have ever been on a cruise ship, there are mandatory evacuation drills. I had not been slow, but when I reached the rally point, not only did the Japanese have their lifejackets on, but they were neatly standing, almost at attention, in a military style rank & file formation.

Today the Japanese Media reported that a reporter on board of the JAL A359 as a passenger, that the evacuation was mainly completed in about 7 minutes after the collision, the captain subsequently walked through the aircraft and found a number of passengers who had not yet evacuated and prompted them to leave the aircraft. The captain was the last to leave the aircraft 18 minutes after coming to a stop.

 

 

Edited January 5, 20242 yr by Georgealbert