proton Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) 33 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said: What consequences exactly ???... The Immigration requirements are easily met for those who are married. Do you think IF Immigration didn't permit these Visa agents then the list of requirements would significantly diminish' ??? It is Immigration themselves who put the requirements in place - They 'could' make PR a lot easier for (legitimately) married people so they don't have to do the hoop jumping each year (just as other countries do) - The reason this is no easier is down to antiquated attitudes within (and the authorities) and result of those gaming the system. Additionally, those 'gaming the system' do so almost at the preference of Immigration as they want the additional source of income (bribes) For one thing the misguided attempt to prevent the fraudsters by making applicants leave the money in the bank for 3 months after the extension and then half of it until the next seasoning period. You seem to think all offices and IO are corrupt, they are not which is why agents often need to go up country where they are. Edited January 28 by proton 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotandsticky Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 40 minutes ago, proton said: For one thing the misguided attempt to prevent the fraudsters by making applicants leave the money in the bank for 3 months after the extension and then half of it until the next seasoning period. You seem to think all offices and IO are corrupt, they are not which is why agents often need to go up country where they are. I have not come across, nor heard of, any Immigration office that is not corrupt. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Red Phoenix Posted January 28 Popular Post Share Posted January 28 11 hours ago, hotandsticky said: Just to add to that - you don't have to be married. Yes, that's correct and it's much quicker to use the non-crowded Thai line at Airport Immigration instead of the Foreigner Line, when accompanied by your Thai wife or girlfriend. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proton Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 17 minutes ago, hotandsticky said: I have not come across, nor heard of, any Immigration office that is not corrupt. How many have you been in and used? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_smith237 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 2 minutes ago, proton said: 19 minutes ago, hotandsticky said: I have not come across, nor heard of, any Immigration office that is not corrupt. How many have you been in and used? How any do you need to be in to understand that what we see as corruption is seen by Thai's as a perfectly normal way of doing things.... Corruption is systemic.... to imply this is not so of Immigration highlights a certain degree of naivety... But if you wanted more confirmation, I have a number of friends who are well placed in the Police force and Immigration.... 'kick backs' are SOP and agents facilitate this perfectly. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proton Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 Just now, richard_smith237 said: How any do you need to be in to understand that what we see as corruption is seen by Thai's as a perfectly normal way of doing things.... Corruption is systemic.... to imply this is not so of Immigration highlights a certain degree of naivety... But if you wanted more confirmation, I have a number of friends who are well placed in the Police force and Immigration.... 'kick backs' are SOP and agents facilitate this perfectly. The usual, it's part of Thai culture, they are all at it nonsense so it's ok, they are NOT all at it. But those involved in bribery like to think so, not all offices are corrupt, not all schools, not all police or local officials. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lacessit Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 13 hours ago, spidermike007 said: I'm going to answer your original question rather than digressing onto the other immigration related issues here. Yes, it is much easier to enter Thailand with a Thai spouse, as you are allowed to go into the line for Thais only with a Thai spouse, and that does speed up the process. I have never had a problem entering Thailand as a single person. My paperwork is impeccable. You may not have noticed there is a separate queue for the elderly, handicapped and pregnant women. I use that, although I have noticed some people use it who are none of the above, except perhaps mentally. Would you still use the Thais only line if your spouse was not with you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhounan Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 No matter what you have, you would always be a guest. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_smith237 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) 41 minutes ago, proton said: The usual, it's part of Thai culture, they are all at it nonsense so it's ok, they are NOT all at it. But those involved in bribery like to think so, not all offices are corrupt, not all schools, not all police or local officials. You know why its the usual, 'it's part of Thai culture' explanation ??..... Because it is !!! What we see as corruption the west is at the very heart the Culture and 'cost of doing business' here - its just not seen as a bad thing, its seen a normal every day life... - Pay 500 baht to get your Certificate of Residence sooner rather than waiting two weeks... - Allow agents to Queue jump and process visas & extensions more quickly... there's a cost for that. - Allow the same agents the 'efficiency' of not checking their paperwork in detail / allow flexibility on some details... there's a cost for that. As I mentioned, I know a number of Police and Immigration officers very well... YOU personally may not see this every time you walk into an Immigration Office or Police station, or do any business here... but the 'facilitation fee' is very much a facet of every day life here. Edited January 28 by richard_smith237 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotandsticky Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 1 hour ago, proton said: How many have you been in and used? 6 personally and another 6 minimum from friends comments over the last 18 years. You? But you are not interested in listening.................. @richard_smith237 summed it up for you. Stay in denial if you are happier with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotandsticky Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 36 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said: You know why its the usual, 'it's part of Thai culture' explanation ??..... Because it is !!! What we see as corruption the west is at the very heart the Culture and 'cost of doing business' here - its just not seen as a bad thing, its seen a normal every day life... - Pay 500 baht to get your Certificate of Residence sooner rather than waiting two weeks... - Allow agents to Queue jump and process visas & extensions more quickly... there's a cost for that. - Allow the same agents the 'efficiency' of not checking their paperwork in detail / allow flexibility on some details... there's a cost for that. As I mentioned, I know a number of Police and Immigration officers very well... YOU personally may not see this every time you walk into an Immigration Office or Police station, or do any business here... but the 'facilitation fee' is very much a facet of every day life here. Thaksin is the epitome of this element of Thai culture. Of course he robbed the country blind.............the Thais know that - but they also know he did some good for the country; being accredited with the 30 Baht health scheme for example Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youreavinalaff Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 3 hours ago, richard_smith237 said: What consequences exactly ???... The Immigration requirements are easily met for those who are married. Do you think IF Immigration didn't permit these Visa agents then the list of requirements would significantly diminish' ??? It is Immigration themselves who put the requirements in place - They 'could' make PR a lot easier for (legitimately) married people so they don't have to do the hoop jumping each year (just as other countries do) - The reason this is no easier is down to antiquated attitudes within (and the authorities) and result of those gaming the system. Additionally, those 'gaming the system' do so almost at the preference of Immigration as they want the additional source of income (bribes) For marriage extensions it is not quite as easy. Applications are sent to the regional HQ for approval. Was that bypassed by the IO being bribed? Without knowing how much "fixing" has been done by the agent, there is no knowing how legitimate, or dodgy, the stamps in the OP's/OP's friend's passport might be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youreavinalaff Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 3 hours ago, Chris Daley said: No immigration rules are based on melanin and skin pigmentation. I have know a few guys who are married with Thai kids as well and they still have to do the bull<deleted>. What bull (deleted) exactly? I guess you mean "No,(comma inserted) immigration rules are based on melanin and skin pigmentation." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youreavinalaff Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 3 hours ago, proton said: For one thing the misguided attempt to prevent the fraudsters by making applicants leave the money in the bank for 3 months after the extension and then half of it until the next seasoning period. You seem to think all offices and IO are corrupt, they are not which is why agents often need to go up country where they are. Not required for mattiage extensions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_smith237 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 23 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said: For marriage extensions it is not quite as easy. Not easy for who ?? (perhaps only those who don't meet the requirements ??? The trickiest part is making sure the submitted photos are acceptable. 23 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said: Applications are sent to the regional HQ for approval. Was that bypassed by the IO being bribed? Without knowing how much "fixing" has been done by the agent, there is no knowing how legitimate, or dodgy, the stamps in the OP's/OP's friend's passport might be. It could be argued that its a grey area - but if the 'stamp came from Immigration' then its valid... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_smith237 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 3 hours ago, proton said: For one thing the misguided attempt to prevent the fraudsters by making applicants leave the money in the bank for 3 months after the extension and then half of it until the next seasoning period. You seem to think all offices and IO are corrupt, they are not which is why agents often need to go up country where they are. I agree, a lot of this is often 'shipped off to the sticks'... But there are also another reasons... - There is less oversight outside of the larger immigration offices. - In the Busier area's there is less need for the officers to compromises themselves with the smaller every day stuff we'd see. - Whereas in the quieter area's there is less opportunity for graft, so they take the opportunity handed to them by agents. For example... in the provinces where there is a lot of foreign labourers the Immigration officers are less likely to be bothered with Visa agents dealing with Westerners because their income stream is from the factories etc who are paying handsomely to avoid immigration raids etc... In much the same way traffic regulations, helmet wearing etc are Policed more in Bangkok and other built up areas than in the quieter area's... its not due to any lesser degree of corruption, a lot of this is also about optics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youreavinalaff Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 20 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said: Not easy for who ?? (perhaps only those who don't meet the requirements ??? The trickiest part is making sure the submitted photos are acceptable. It could be argued that its a grey area - but if the 'stamp came from Immigration' then its valid... If you read the trail of comments you'll know what I meant. Marriage extensions are not so easy for those trying to circumnavigate the rules. I have heard of stamps going in passports without being entered on the system by rogue IOs. These would not be valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TroubleandGrumpy Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 6 hours ago, richard_smith237 said: What consequences exactly ???... The Immigration requirements are easily met for those who are married. Do you think IF Immigration didn't permit these Visa agents then the list of requirements would significantly diminish' ??? It is Immigration themselves who put the requirements in place - They 'could' make PR a lot easier for (legitimately) married people so they don't have to do the hoop jumping each year (just as other countries do) - The reason this is no easier is down to antiquated attitudes within (and the authorities) and result of those gaming the system. Additionally, those 'gaming the system' do so almost at the preference of Immigration as they want the additional source of income (bribes) R U Serious ? You sound like that youtuber who thinks Thailand Immigration is wonderful and there have been no changes since 2010 in order to crack dowen on the 'bad ones'. The bad ones are the reasaon why many Thais have such a negative attitude to Expats for decades, and why any discussion to make it easier for Expats to retire/marry in Thailand are immediately shut down. Yes Xenophobia and Corruption is a big part - but the bad ones are their best excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_smith237 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) 1 hour ago, youreavinalaff said: 1 hour ago, richard_smith237 said: Not easy for who ?? (perhaps only those who don't meet the requirements ??? The trickiest part is making sure the submitted photos are acceptable. It could be argued that its a grey area - but if the 'stamp came from Immigration' then its valid... Expand If you read the trail of comments you'll know what I meant. Marriage extensions are not so easy for those trying to circumnavigate the rules. I have heard of stamps going in passports without being entered on the system by rogue IOs. These would not be valid. Ah... So its not easy for those who who don't meet the requirements... otherwise, easy enough.. no ??? I think the Retirement visa isn't easy for me... in fact its impossible... Edited January 28 by richard_smith237 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youreavinalaff Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 4 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said: Ah... So its not easy for those who who don't meet the requirements... otherwise, easy enough.. no ??? I think the Retirement visa isn't easy for me... in fact its impossible... I've never had a problem. 21 years on Non B and Non O. Meet the criteria, get the extension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_smith237 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 5 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said: R U Serious ? You sound like that youtuber who thinks Thailand Immigration is wonderful and there have been no changes since 2010 in order to crack dowen on the 'bad ones'. The bad ones are the reasaon why many Thais have such a negative attitude to Expats for decades, and why any discussion to make it easier for Expats to retire/marry in Thailand are immediately shut down. Yes Xenophobia and Corruption is a big part - but the bad ones are their best excuse. Really... You sound like a bar-stooler tarring all Thai's with the same negative brush.... The reality is, for those who meet Immigration requirements the visa's are easily and simply secured - sure, jumping through the paperwork hoops on a year basis is a PITA, but its not hard, its just irritating to have to keep doing it when there could easily be better systems... 'The bad ones' are the reason why so many Thai's have such a negative attitude towards expats ???... Really ??? Sorry to burst your 'self important' bubble, but most Thai's don't have any attitude towards us, they dont think about us and when the average Thai does cross paths with a Westerner its just like they are crossing paths with any other stranger, there is a general indifference and thats it... The 'discussions' to make it easier that may or may not exist (no one knows) might be influenced by the numerous foreigners here to attempt to game the system... but its more likely that there are no discussions, systems are in place, change takes effort... as mentioned earlier... the general indifference means no one is really that bothered about it at all, so carry on. I've been here a couple of decades - the only crack down I've seen over the years is on Back to Back Tourist Visas and Visa Exempt entries... the Non-Imm visas haven't really changed at all... and remain just as easy secure for those who meet the requirements as they always have been (the difficulty has been with our respective Embassies refusing various documents). 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woof999 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 4 hours ago, Lacessit said: there is a separate queue for the elderly, handicapped and pregnant women. To be fair, if an elderly, handicapped woman is also pregnant she should get a free limo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_smith237 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) 9 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said: 14 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said: Ah... So its not easy for those who who don't meet the requirements... otherwise, easy enough.. no ??? I think the Retirement visa isn't easy for me... in fact its impossible... I've never had a problem. 21 years on Non B and Non O. Meet the criteria, get the extension. Thats kind of my point... The Visa's are all easy for those who meet the requirements - someone It was TroubleandGrumpy who mentioned that the 'bad guys' such as the Ops 'friend' were making it more difficult and create more issues for those of us playing by the rules... i.e. the 'bad guys give us all a bad rep' argument - but this is flawed IMO. ...But, I don't think so... if we meet the requirements the visas are easy... Edited January 28 by richard_smith237 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CartagenaWarlock Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) 16 hours ago, hotandsticky said: Just to add to that - you don't have to be married. Money can also buy. You can enter the fast track lane by purchasing a business class ticket; however, I believe the OP asked if IOs would harass him for staying too long in Thailand. To answer that question, if one has a Thai wife (or family) and a proper visa, he will not be harassed. Edited January 28 by CartagenaWarlock 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youreavinalaff Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said: Thats kind of my point... The Visa's are all easy for those who meet the requirements - someone It was TroubleandGrumpy who mentioned that the 'bad guys' such as the Ops 'friend' were making it more difficult and create more issues for those of us playing by the rules... i.e. the 'bad guys give us all a bad rep' argument - but this is flawed IMO. ...But, I don't think so... if we meet the requirements the visas are easy... The bad guys do make it more difficult. More and more checks are now required due to bad practices. Scam marriages : Immigration now require a KR2 no less than 24 hrs old. Photos of house, witnesses, home visits. Wife needed at immigration. Return after one month. No money: before one could borrow from a friend for a day or two. Now it's needed between 2 and 5 months. In case of retirement, 400k forever. Bank book and letter from bank on day of application. Monthly income: many more checks now made with regards to origin. Extensions of stay are far more difficult than they were years ago because of the bad guys. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liverpool Lou Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) 5 hours ago, zhounan said: No matter what you have, you would always be a guest. Obviously, no one's doubting that, but so what? . Edited January 28 by Liverpool Lou Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richard_smith237 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 (edited) 29 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said: The bad guys do make it more difficult. More and more checks are now required due to bad practices. Scam marriages : Immigration now require a KR2 no less than 24 hrs old. Photos of house, witnesses, home visits. Wife needed at immigration. Return after one month. No money: before one could borrow from a friend for a day or two. Now it's needed between 2 and 5 months. In case of retirement, 400k forever. Bank book and letter from bank on day of application. Monthly income: many more checks now made with regards to origin. Extensions of stay are far more difficult than they were years ago because of the bad guys. I agree the hoops are there... Are any of these hoops 'because' of the bad guys ?? Or are they the hoops there simply because they are the rules which are now being enforced ? I think a lot of the requirements have always existed... they are just being enforced more stringently - I suspect this is more to do with the modernisation of Thailand rather than anything else. Perhaps you are right and the rules are more stringent because of those who game the system. But, I draw the analogy of driving in Thailand (perhaps a flawed analogy) - the police are more strict on some aspects, speeding etc, especially with more cameras etc... thats not because more people are breaking the law, its just evolution of a maturing society to enforce the rules more stringently. Edited January 28 by richard_smith237 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJack54 Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 34 minutes ago, youreavinalaff said: The bad guys do make it more difficult. More and more checks are now required due to bad practices. Scam marriages : Immigration now require a KR2 no less than 24 hrs old. Photos of house, witnesses, home visits. Wife needed at immigration. Return after one month. No money: before one could borrow from a friend for a day or two. Now it's needed between 2 and 5 months. In case of retirement, 400k forever. Bank book and letter from bank on day of application. Monthly income: many more checks now made with regards to origin. Extensions of stay are far more difficult than they were years ago because of the bad guys. Incorrect in every sentence. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youreavinalaff Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 1 minute ago, richard_smith237 said: I agree the hoops are there... Are any of them 'because' of the bad guys ?? Or are they there because they are there ? I think a lot of the requirements have always existed... they are just being enforced more stringently - I suspect this is more to do with the modernisation of Thailand rather than anything else. Perhaps you are right and the rules are more stringent because of those who game the system. But, I draw the analogy of driving in Thailand (perhaps a flawed analogy) - the police are more strict on some aspects, speeding etc, especially with more cameras etc... thats not because more people are breaking the law, its just evolution of a maturing society to enforce the rules more stringently. Up to date KR2 has not always been required, wife present at immigration has not always been required, proof of origin of income has not always been required, keeping 800k in bank for 3 months after extension issued and 400k for ever has not always been required, as examples. Most of the above rules were implemented to stop those trying to bend the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youreavinalaff Posted January 28 Share Posted January 28 Just now, DrJack54 said: Incorrect in every sentence. That would be your, flawed, opinion. So, please show me the rules I've stated in EVERY sentence are incorrect. Let's start with KR2 needed along with photos to prove marriage is real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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