Despite U.S. pressure, the idea of a Palestinian state seems farther away than ever

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

"The Romans invaded the land of Palestine in 63BC."
If you believe the accounts in the Torah, the Jews took that land from the Canaanites in about 2,000 BCE.
My point in citing this is not to establish some point in time to assign the land to the Jews or not, but it is to show that this land has been inhabited by and under the control of different peoples at different times in history. This control and even the percentage of the population of any certain people has fluctuated throughout history. So, to say this land "belongs" to a certain people is not a claim that can legitimately be made.

"They believed Palestine was their land, given to them by God"

I agree with this, your last statement.

 

"They believed Palestine was their land, given to them by God"

 

If anyone else said that about somewhere they'd be a laughing stock, yet some people seem to accept it in israel's case. I wonder why ( not really )?

[WDSmart]

23 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

"They believed Palestine was their land, given to them by God"

I agree with this, your last statement.
 

If anyone else said that about somewhere they'd be a laughing stock, yet some people seem to accept it in israel's case. I wonder why ( not really )?

I just want to clarify my remark on the post above. I meant I agreed "They believed...," not that the land actually was "given to them by God," whomever they think that is. 

Edited March 2 by WDSmart

[Bkk Brian]

3 hours ago, ezzra said:

Just wondering what is the average Palestinian is thinking now that 5 months later from that 7th October date

and with 30,000 dead?

Gaza is in ruins, millions displaced in hunger and despair, having to loot food trucks to feed their families,

was it worth it all to do what they did back 5 moths ago? and in a hindsight wisdom would  would they

still go out and do the same? better yes, have they learned anything from all of this? What do you think?...

Well, one thing to remember is that this 30k dead is not all civilians of course. Here's a little breakdown.

 

1. 13,000 Hamas terrorists killed 

2. 17,000 Civilians killed

 

 

[Bkk Brian]

2 hours ago, sirineou said:

The vehicle of the eventual decline  of any tribe that attempted to dominate another. 

What is, Is Hubris

 No absolutely not ,( Are we talking about Palestinian or Israeli genocidal terrorists?)  Because both exist in equal measure. 

Israelis  by now IMO have achieved the goal I first described.in my OP , generations have lived there and know no other life or identity they are not going anywhere if they can help it.

But on the other hand neither are the Palestinians, and they have  have been there a lot longer. 

                     At this point equitable coexistence is the only solution.

But the Israelis are trapped just as much as Palestinian though in a much better situation, but just as trapped. 

IMO Israel was a Jewish mistake of monumental proportions,IMO the strength of the  Jewish culture was that inadvertently they had  thrown away the constraints , costs and limitations of nationalism , Yes there were costs associated with internationalism, but the benefits far outweighed the costs .

 In fact there  are Jewish factions who believe that israel is a mistake, and Zion is the world not a geographical location. 

Israelis are trapped and enable to properly react by Israeli demographics. As we all know (or should)

a major problem in the world, is falling fertility rates, and israel is no different, but it has and advantage and/or  disadvantage depending on one's perspective,

Its orthodox population has a fertility  rate of , if I remember correctly  6 children per family . gradually making them a large segment of Israeli political power , and are projected to be  a large percentage of Israeli population in the not too far future . This puts pressure on Israeli politicians to do the politically expedient thing rather than the right thing.   

 

So hat is the solution? A viable palestinian state .

Viable!! there is nothing viable by the fragmented open air concentration camp that exists now. Nothing!! 

whose borders and security is guaranteed by an impartial international peace force . The US can't play any part in it, because it is far   from impartial. 

This has to be forced on Israel. only because it is unable to do so by itself do to some of the internal political dynamics I described above. 

Of course this would have to be worked out in far more detail by professionals in in the subject , of which I am not, and of many different disciplines .  

 

No absolutely not ,( Are we talking about Palestinian or Israeli genocidal terrorists?)  Because both exist in equal measure.

 

When you make statements like all it shows is just how bias and ignorant to the facts you are.

[sirineou]

57 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That's an inconvenient truth that certain posters are sure to ignore.

If I were to use their claim that living somewhere 2,000 years ago is proof of ownership I am entitled to part of England given my Celtic heritage. Somehow I don't think the present inhabitants would be willing to move out for me.

 

What's sad is that old white men half a world away did believe it and stole the land from the inhabitants of Palestine and gave it to the zionists in 1948.

I guess the ensuing chaos is karma on the west.

What are also ignore , or perhaps don't know is that everyone came from somewhere some time and displaced someone. 

and the Celts came from?

"The Celtic people were of Indo-European descent. The tribes originated from Europe around the Greece area. They were eventually pushed out of many areas and only populated the British Isles. " 

https://study.com/academy/lesson/celts-history-culture-religion.html#:~:text=The Celtic people were of,only populated the British Isles.

So before you start laying claim part of England, both my parents were Greek so according to the above, I also have a claim . Perhaps we can get together and divvy up  the place 

But keep it quiet  because we don't want the Neanderthals to get a whiff if that cause I am sure they have claim to first dibs to everything. 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, WDSmart said:

I just want to clarify my remark on the post above. I meant I agreed "They believed...," not that the land actually was "given to them by God," whomever they think that is. 

I understood what you meant, I was just commenting on the "given by God" claim, which is a nonsense. Had God given it to them, God would have made sure the land was vacant before they arrived. No problem to arrange all the bushes to burst into flames with a voice to tell them to get out of town.

[sirineou]

24 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I understood what you meant, I was just commenting on the "given by God" claim, which is a nonsense. Had God given it to them, God would have made sure the land was vacant before they arrived. No problem to arrange all the bushes to burst into flames with a voice to tell them to get out of town.

Not true

God did not remove the people before they arrived because where would the jews get the maids and gardeners from ?

But then god took it away from them and gave it to a lot of different people at different times. 

'cause let's face it god is an indian giver.

He gives and than he takes back. Would not trust him further than I can throw him .

He gave me good looks about 30 years ago! and now look at me.

As for the burning bushes, you need to put it into period specific context.

No TV back then, wife was getting knocked up  by god left and right, what's a man to do?

Burning bushes was just about the only entertainment back then  . that and goats .

If you get my drift. 😜

 

[Jingthing]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That's an inconvenient truth that certain posters are sure to ignore.

If I were to use their claim that living somewhere 2,000 years ago is proof of ownership I am entitled to part of England given my Celtic heritage. Somehow I don't think the present inhabitants would be willing to move out for me.

 

What's sad is that old white men half a world away did believe it and stole the land from the inhabitants of Palestine and gave it to the zionists in 1948.

I guess the ensuing chaos is karma on the west.

To Jew haters European Jews are white when it supports their narrative and Asiatic vermin also when it serves their narrative as the Nazis did.

[Jingthing]

Where should the Jews go?

 

 

[Nick Carter icp]

4 hours ago, WDSmart said:

"What is Israel to do when an utter mayhem and madness is going on in Gaza at the moment?"

Negotiate and carry out a treaty with the Palestinians that is something like this:
1. Israel completely withdraws and commits to a PERMANENT ceasefire, which third-party (UN?) peacekeepers enforce. Palestine returns most (75%) of the hostages.
2. The peacekeepers (UN?) also organize the immediate assistance to and the eventual rebuilding of Gaza.
3. Israel and Palestine negotiate a two-state solution. When complete, Palestine returns the rest of the hostages.
4. The peacekeepers (UN?) enforce the administration of the two-state solution and will probably have to do this for many years.

 

   Lets negotiate ,  

 

 

 

[retarius]

3 hours ago, ezzra said:

Wow, didn't see you coming out with such statements when 1,200 men, women and babies were raped, burned,

mutilated and kidnapped 5 months ago, and you never called for the terrorists an animals to be brought to justice

did you now? or Jews lives don't matter much to you?...

To be perfectly honest, I value bullies and murders lives less than those of innocent people. So if you want a ranking, October 7th innocents (those killed by both Hamas and the IDF) and current poor innocent Palestinians (joint #1) murdered by the IDF much more highly that the lives of IDF or supporters of those murdered by the IDF or zionist settlers that I don't value highly. 

[Nick Carter icp]

3 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

That's an inconvenient truth that certain posters are sure to ignore.

If I were to use their claim that living somewhere 2,000 years ago is proof of ownership I am entitled to part of England given my Celtic heritage. Somehow I don't think the present inhabitants would be willing to move out for me.

 

What's sad is that old white men half a world away did believe it and stole the land from the inhabitants of Palestine and gave it to the zionists in 1948.

I guess the ensuing chaos is karma on the west.

 

   So Jews shouldn't claim the land because they previously lived there , BUT Palestinians can indeed claim the land................................because they previously live there ?

   Isn't that rather unfair and hypocritical ?

Edited March 2 by Nick Carter icp

[WDSmart]

1 hour ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Lets negotiate ,  

 

 

 

Yes, negotiate a stop to the devastation depicted above for 130+ hostages.
 

[Jingthing]

21 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Yes, negotiate a stop to the devastation depicted above for 130+ hostages.
 

Israel needs more than the hostages.

[WDSmart]

9 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Israel needs more than the hostages.

Yes, I've also included a stop to the terrorist attacks in all my recommendations for negotiations.

And Palestine needs more than just a ceasefire. They need immediate assistance, rebuilding, and a two-state solution enforced by third-parties. 

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Yes, I've also included a stop to the terrorist attacks in all my recommendations for negotiations.

And Palestine needs more than just a ceasefire. They need immediate assistance, rebuilding, and a two-state solution enforced by third-parties. 

But they don't want a two state solution.

[WDSmart]

32 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

35 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Yes, I've also included a stop to the terrorist attacks in all my recommendations for negotiations.

And Palestine needs more than just a ceasefire. They need immediate assistance, rebuilding, and a two-state solution enforced by third-parties. 

But they don't want a two state solution.

Yes, I know. Neither does Israel. That's what "negotiations" are all about. And, for this one, the bargaining chips are a mutual, permanent ceasefire and a release of the hostages, but both will have to be done conditionally, and those conditions must be enforced by some third-party, like the UN.

[Jingthing]

34 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Yes, I know. Neither does Israel. That's what "negotiations" are all about. And, for this one, the bargaining chips are a mutual, permanent ceasefire and a release of the hostages, but both will have to be done conditionally, and those conditions must be enforced by some third-party, like the UN.

Wow finally someone that knows how to end the seemingly endless Israel Palestinian conflict! You make it sound so simple!  You need to be flown out there immediately!

[Nick Carter icp]

2 hours ago, WDSmart said:

Yes, I know. Neither does Israel. That's what "negotiations" are all about. And, for this one, the bargaining chips are a mutual, permanent ceasefire and a release of the hostages, but both will have to be done conditionally, and those conditions must be enforced by some third-party, like the UN.

 

   Enforce conditions on both sides who will not accept those conditions and enforced by a group that doesn't have a Army .

   Need to bet back to the drawing board and think about it again 

[WDSmart]

6 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   Enforce conditions on both sides who will not accept those conditions and enforced by a group that doesn't have a Army .

   Need to bet back to the drawing board and think about it again 

No, I've thought about this a lot, and I've come to this conclusion months ago: a two-state solution with multiple layers of conditions for both sides enforced by a group of third-party peacekeepers. The UN could assign these or be a mixed group decided upon during the negotiations. And, yes, they would have to have a military presence. 

[Nick Carter icp]

10 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

No, I've thought about this a lot, and I've come to this conclusion months ago: a two-state solution with multiple layers of conditions for both sides enforced by a group of third-party peacekeepers. The UN could assign these or be a mixed group decided upon during the negotiations. And, yes, they would have to have a military presence. 

 

  And what would happen if and when Hamas begin bombing the U.N military bases in Gaza ?

The U.N and Hamas go to war , just like Hamas and Israel are doing now ?

[WDSmart]

14 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

  And what would happen if and when Hamas begin bombing the U.N military bases in Gaza ?

The U.N and Hamas go to war , just like Hamas and Israel are doing now ?

Yes, but only against the Hamas militants, not the general Palestinian population, as the IDF is doing now. Just as if Isreal broke the ceasefire agreement and continued to bomb Gaza, The UN Peacekeeping forces would realitate against the IDF. But, both of those are extremely unlikely if both parties have reached and agreed to a resolution, even if that negotiation was forced upon them. 

Edited March 2 by WDSmart

[Nick Carter icp]

15 minutes ago, WDSmart said:

Yes, but only against the Hamas militants, not the general Palestinian population, as the IDF is doing now. Just as if Isreal broke the ceasefire agreement and continued to bomb Gaza, The UN Peacekeeping forces would realitate against the IDF. But, both of those are extremely unlikely if both parties have reached and agreed to a resolution, even if that negotiation was forced upon them. 

 

   How would the U.N Army find the Hamas people if they hid among the general population and used schools and hospitals to fire rockets from ?

   How would the U.N Army be the first Army ever in the World to manage not to kill any civilians ?

[WDSmart]

40 minutes ago, Nick Carter icp said:

 

   How would the U.N Army find the Hamas people if they hid among the general population and used schools and hospitals to fire rockets from ?

   How would the U.N Army be the first Army ever in the World to manage not to kill any civilians ?

I don't know all the details of the orders. I'm not a military specialist. But I assume they would search through the territory that the violations had emmenated from and engage with any militants they find there. Again, I'm not an expert in this area, but I'd assume the UN Peacekeepers would not fire on anyone, even in a situation like this, who did not fire on them first.
The UN Peacekeeping force would not have the objective of conquering the entire territory and all the population or take revenge. They would only be after any militants who violated the treaty, and they would accept individual militant's or groups of militants' surrender. Their objective would not be to kill them all.

Also, everything I said above would be applied to actions against the IDF if individuals or groups of them renewed their attacks.

Edited March 2 by WDSmart

[ezzra]

This Israel-Palestinian war has gone way beyond those 2 entities and reaching and agreement to

solve the issue will have to be with the nod of approval from other players in this conflict,

the countries who were actively involved and inserted themselves in this conflict as well,

countries such as Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Qatar, Iran, Iraq,Turkey, Lebanon and Yemen all all involved

up to their neck with Russia, N. Korea and Iran supplying weapons and armaments to Hamas,

 

One thing for sure, agreement or not, other than the Israelis vacating and leaving the whole of Israel for

the Palestinians to 'go back to their land,' the hostilities will never end no matter what paper will be signed,

 

The Palestinians (inflammatory phrase removed by Moderator) will not stop hate Israel and will continue to take any

opportunity to take revenge Arab style, meaning shooting and stabbing at Israelis and Jews...

 

Edited March 2 by Mike Lister
remove the words, "by their nature and tradition".

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, sirineou said:

God did not remove the people before they arrived because where would the jews get the maids and gardeners from ?

and the men to build nice houses for israelis to live in on the land they stole ( are stealing ) from Palestinians.

[Jingthing]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

and the men to build nice houses for israelis to live in on the land they stole ( are stealing ) from Palestinians.

Are you applying for the faculty of Palestinian studies at Berkeley?

[thaibeachlovers]

On 3/2/2024 at 9:41 AM, ezzra said:

There are many anti Israeli posters here that condemned Israel for it's treatment of the Palestinians but don't 

offer solutions, 

Rubbish. I have myself offered solutions. I suppose you missed them or have me on ignore.

 

Two state solution enforced by a proper military prepared to take on the israelis if they attack the West Bank. A military NOT controlled by either israel or the US ( or Britain for that matter ).

 

There is also at least one other poster that has offered similar solutions but I suppose you missed them as well.

[Jingthing]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Rubbish. I have myself offered solutions. I suppose you missed them or have me on ignore.

 

Two state solution enforced by a proper military prepared to take on the israelis if they attack the West Bank. A military NOT controlled by either israel or the US ( or Britain for that matter ).

 

There is also at least one other poster that has offered similar solutions but I suppose you missed them as well.

Have the authorities been informed that an anonymous forum member can solve this  conflict?

[Nick Carter icp]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Rubbish. I have myself offered solutions. I suppose you missed them or have me on ignore.

 

Two state solution enforced by a proper military prepared to take on the israelis if they attack the West Bank. A military NOT controlled by either israel or the US ( or Britain for that matter ).

 

There is also at least one other poster that has offered similar solutions but I suppose you missed them as well.

 

  Whose army would that be ?

South Africa's army ?