EU citizens not confident Ukraine can win.

[rabas]

8 hours ago, BobBKK said:

 

I'm sorry to say, but this is misguided. Have you been to Russia?  Ukraine? I have been many times and I have relatives in Kiev. The issue was Zelenksy's lies at the election when he promised peace in Donbas. Now, of course , there are NO ELECTIONS, and it is an autocracy. I can tell you - clearly - there is very little difference between Russians and Ukrainians, and this war is a tragedy. Russia felt threatened and wanted the USA many times - no NATO expansion on our borders.

The poor Ukrainian people pay the price, as did Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Vietnam, Cuba and all the rest. The one thing different is American troops are kept safely at home while others fight their dirty wars.

 

Where did I say anything about Russians and Ukrainians being 'different'? TBH you seem to be expressing your own anti West rhetoric rather than addressing my post. We have a few like that here.

 

And yes, I've been to both as far back as the informative cold war. Grew up in cold war Europe and  have lifelong very close  Russian friends, some I've worked with for decades and still do. My views come from history and Russians. (Don't have a current Ukraine friend but my first wife was Lithuanian if that helps.)

 

Short form: Ukrainians good, Russians good, Putin worse than it gets, and no the West didn't make Putin do all his evil things. And no, most Russians don't like him. If you think so, your'e likely suffering Putin propaganda.  

[sirineou]

Making no value judgments. 

When talking about win or lose. one needs to define the objective. 

What was Ukraines objective, and what was Russia's objective. 

Ukraine wanted to join NATO and be part of the EU. Why? because they wanted security and European prosperity , but the had a geographical problem. 

  Russia did not want NATO in their back door  , With Ukraine pro Russian or neutral a threat of invasion could only come from The Suwałki Gap and a squeeze through the 65 km gap between Russian Kaliningrad and pro Russian Belarus.  

  As The US would not allow Russian nuclear missiles in Cuba  for obvious reasons, the Russians would not allow Nato in their back door.  This should not had come as a surprise to anyone . Many notable diplomats and heads of state had said the Russia would take NATO in Ukraine as a defacto declaration of war. (these were the words of Angela Merkel at the Budapest NATO samit)  

And indeed that's what happened. 

  So has Ukraine achieved its objectives? Is their country fully integrated in  NATO?  , Would their whole country be an EU member? Are they better off now, than they were before the war? 

  Has Russia achieved its objectives? Even if Ukraine was to become a NATO member, Russia  has but a buffer zone between itself and NATO, it is called  the western oblasts (  Donetsk, Kherson, Luhansk, Mykolayiv, and Zaporizhzhya ) a large percentage of Ukraine. 

So who is winning this war? 

So finally the Europeans are waking up to realities after two years of economic decline . IMO better late than never. But it would had been nice if they did before the beautiful country, the breadbasket of Europe was put through the meat grinder. 

All and all a very sad situation to say the least.  

 

 

[beautifulthailand99]

1 hour ago, rabas said:

 

Where did I say anything about Russians and Ukrainians being 'different'? TBH you seem to be expressing your own anti West rhetoric rather than addressing my post. We have a few like that here.

 

And yes, I've been to both as far back as the informative cold war. Grew up in cold war Europe and  have lifelong very close  Russian friends, some I've worked with for decades and still do. My views come from history and Russians. (Don't have a current Ukraine friend but my first wife was Lithuanian if that helps.)

 

Short form: Ukrainians good, Russians good, Putin worse than it gets, and no the West didn't make Putin do all his evil things. And no, most Russians don't like him. If you think so, your'e likely suffering Putin propaganda.  

As for Putin all available research says you are plain wrong. Many Ukrainians commentators lament how popular he is with the "Orcs" and use that fact for a blanket Russian condemnation.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/12/europe/russian-support-putin-election-intl-cmd/index.html

 

The latest polling, from the respected Levada Center in Moscow, puts public trust in Putin at an astonishing 86%.

Of course, in a country where critics are routinely jailed, exiled or killed, public opinion polls are flawed. Another factor is the constant pro-Kremlin propaganda pumped out on state-controlled media, where most Russians get their news.

But as this election approaches, you can’t discount what so many ordinary Russians tell you, face to face.

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, sirineou said:

I  am not sure Zelensky will crawl anywhere other than a third country that would give him citizenship where he can spend the millions he has made from this war. I would be surprise to see him in Ukraine a year from now, maybe even less. 

 

I agree that he will likely do a runner. I should have said "Zelensky or his successor crawl........."

[thaibeachlovers]

11 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

For better or worse, the American century is coming to an end and it's naive to think that the old orthodoxies still hold true.

Agree, but IMO the American decline began in the 1970s after North Vietnam defeated America ( or whatever the reason for the American abandonment of South Vietnam may be ). They lost the illusion of invincibility.

[sirineou]

2 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I agree that he will likely do a runner. I should have said "Zelensky or his successor crawl........."

When I made the of shore accounts comments some got offended.and replied so.  Demanding proof and links to the information. 

Of course I did not take the bait 

Before the war Zelensky's secret of shore accounts were reported in leaked documents.

But we are now to assume that Zelensky and a country that was ranked in the top 10 most corrupt countries suddenly found Christ. Especially with all the foreign money that is flowing into Ukraine much of it going unaccounted off. 

  IMO it would be extremely stupid if playing the game he is playing , if he did not have a plan B . I like to think I am not a corrupt person, and I know I would.  But some people are simple, and they think everyone else is also simple.