Be on 1-Perm. of Stay=Demed as tax resident even if stay less than 180 days per year in Th?

[Sea Traveller]

I am Swedish man and soon 63 years of age and is married with a women that have both Thai and Swedish citizenships. I plan to be be living in both Sweden and Thailand on a long term basis going forward.The base case as to be counted as having the permanent residence in Sweden is to stay minimum 6 months in a row per 12-month period. This is how I want it to be and this means also that I will be fully taxable in Sweden. However this get access to almost free health care in Sweden etc. Going to also mention that Sweden and Thailand has a double taxation agreement without going into what is written in that..

 

I am looking on two options regards to stay in Thailand quite a lot in the period from like mid October to mid April but to make sure that I always stays less than 180 days in Thailand per calendar year (1 Jan. - 31 Dec.). To my understanding if I stay more than 180 days in Thailand I will automatically be deemed as taxable in Thailand as well…Right or wrong?

 

I look on two options:

 

1. I travel to Thailand on the normal Single Entry Non-Immigrant O E-Visa based on that I am married with a Thai woman as I get via the Thai Embassy in Stockholm and stay up to 90 days i Thailand. I travel back to Sweden for a period sometime during the winter season and do then apply for a new SE (The ME is removed) Non-Imm. O E-visa before to go back to Thailand with another max. 90 day stay period. With this plan is get some ticket expense. But I don’t have to put +400.000 or +800.000 Baht to one of my Thai bank accounts. Of course I make sure that I every calendar do stay less than 180 days in Thailand.

 

2. I apply for and get a 1-Year Permission of Stay with 90-Day Reportings based on my Non-Imm. O E-visa as married with Thai women. I purchase also a Multiple Re-Entry Permit as to be flexible to be able to travel out and back to Thailand on a short notice as whatever happens. But will I with this option be deemed as taxable in Thailand as I have a 1-Year Permission of Stay regardless if I actually make sure that I stay less than 180 days in Thailand on every calendar year?

 

Which one is recommended as to Not likely get counted as taxable in Thailand as well? (if possible?)

 

 

As info only and I request no comments. But if someone likes to do so please do so of course. 
 

The Swedish Embassy in Bangkok do still issue ”Income Certificates” for people that like to use the minimum 40.000 Baht per month as for example married with a Thai or minimum 65.000 per month to a Thai bank account as retired. However they do only approve basis some certain and few types of incomes and which ones can be read on The Swedish Embassy in Bangkok site. For example regardless how much money you have on Bank accounts this do not qualify. Thus only option is to place either minimum 400.000 or 800.000 Baht on a Thai Bank account in your name only. I have speak with quite a few as in Udon Thani and everyone I spoken so far with advice me to Not even try to go with 400.000 option as married with a Thai women. They say is possible but so much more paperworks and that Immigration have done quite a few visits to some. For me personally as is to live partly in Sweden and Thailand I will for sure select based on the Retirement option but will for some years ahead use the minimum 800.000 Baht methode. 

 

I skip write term of for example ”Retirement Visa” or ”Marriage Visa” as if it is actually  about a ” 1-Year Permission of Stay with 90-Day reportings this is referring to. My Visa is cancelled at the moment the Immigration Officer (normally at the International Airport) at the entry into Thailand puts a stamp in my Passport. Ok is possible to have Multiple Entry Visas but still there will get a stamp of how many days I am entitled to stay in Thailand at each entry to Thailand.  Why use the wrong terms as is confusing specially for the not so experienced? 
 

 

[DrJack54]

OP, @Mike Lister may be able to advise.

There is a long thread running about tax implications.  

[Mike Lister]

It doesn't matter, from a tax perspective, what type of visa you have or whether you are married or not. The only thing that matters is the number of days you spend in Thailand, during each calendar year. If you stay more than 180 days in Thailand, you are Thai tax resident, under that you are not.

 

Please see below, a tax guide that may help you better understand what's involved.

 

 

[TroubleandGrumpy]

My advice is to use option 2 - get a 12 month Marriage Visa mulitple entry - and stay in Thailand less than 180 days in total from 1 January to 31 December and you are not a tax resident.  You can do 179 days in Thailand in one trip, or you can do multiple trips over the calendar year that total up to 179 days.  Get a new 12 months Visa in Sweden each time - avoid the annual extension khrapp here in Thailand. 

 

I will say that after a few years you might want to stop all the travelling back and forth between Thailand and Sweden.  I did the same between Thailand and Australia for a few years with my Thai wife (who is also an Aust citizen) and it became 'not so enjoyable' - and it is a lot less travel time/issues than going to/from Thailand and Sweden.  If that happens you might want to stay long term in Thailand - until you get much older and then because your wife is citizen you can move back to Sweden at any time - either for a while, or forever. Obviously that would entail a lot of planning and working things out.

 

You are only taxable in Thailand on 'income' that you remit into Thailand. If you remit savings etc. then that is not taxable in Thailand - only income. But this whole new world of Expat taxation in Thailand is something that is going to evolve over the next few years - it would be a great time for you to only stay <180 days while it sorts itself out. When that is all sorted out in a few years (as much as anything can be in Thailand), then get financial and taxation advice in both Sweden and Thailand and decide what to do - plan well and be flexible.  Avoid the financial legal sammers here - especially the Scandinavian ones - yes there are a few here.

 

Drop me a direct message if you want more advice about my Swedish mate and what he is doing and why.

Edited March 7 by TroubleandGrumpy

[TheAppletons]

If you are in Thailand for less than 180 days per year, you are not classified as a Thai tax resident for that year.

 

The type of visa that you hold isn't particularly relevant (unless you decide to obtain an LTR visa.)

 

 

[Pattaya57]

35 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

It doesn't matter, from a tax perspective, what type of visa you have or whether you are married or not. The only thing that matters is the number of days you spend in Thailand, during each calendar year. If you stay more than 180 days in Thailand, you are Thai tax resident, under that you are not.

But you also do not need to register and file a tax return if you have <120,000 baht Thai assessable income in a calendar year. So he can stay 365 days without submitting a tax return if he wants.

 

Edited March 7 by Pattaya57

[Mike Lister]

7 minutes ago, Pattaya57 said:

But you do not need to register and file a tax return if you have <120,000 baht Thai assessible income in a calendar year. So can stay 365 days without a tax return.

I'm sure you intended to be helpful with your post but I specifically didn't mention assessible income levels because the picture is more complex than you state and the OP is clearly at the start of his learning curve. 

 

I suggest the better approach is to let the OP read the tax guide I have posted and then for him to come back with any questions he may have, that way the discussion here wont confuse him, before he has a grounding in the subject..

[Sea Traveller]

24 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

OP, @Mike Lister may be able to advise.

There is a long thread running about tax implications.  

Yes there is indeed a long thread about tax implications but have not managed to find out if my option number 1 is is the better and safer choice as to avoid be taxed as well in Thailand? Both option 1 as 2 is as can be seen to stay less than 180 days in Thailand per calendar year. If option 1 is best choice I will Not send +800.000 Baht to one of my bank accounts in Thailand which I need to do while I on this visit in Thailand. Thus as I to my understanding need then to get a FET receipt from in my case Bangkok Bank as evidence that the money/currency come from a country outside Thailand into my bank account. Not sure if the FET has to be presented to Immigration if and when apply for 1 -Year Permision of Stay? Just been reading a lot trying to find out the rules but get lost…
 

 

[Sea Traveller]

Thanks so much to all that replied at same time that I did write my self. 

 

It have now come several answers whick I am to read with or without links that are very helpful as for me to take a decision about the path forward for me personally. 

[Sea Traveller]

56 minutes ago, TroubleandGrumpy said:

My advice is to use option 2 - get a 12 month Marriage Visa mulitple entry - and stay in Thailand less than 180 days in total from 1 January to 31 December and you are not a tax resident.  You can do 179 days in Thailand in one trip, or you can do multiple trips over the calendar year that total up to 179 days.  Get a new 12 months Visa in Sweden each time - avoid the annual extension khrapp here in Thailand. 

 

I will say that after a few years you might want to stop all the travelling back and forth between Thailand and Sweden.  I did the same between Thailand and Australia for a few years with my Thai wife (who is also an Aust citizen) and it became 'not so enjoyable' - and it is a lot less travel time/issues than going to/from Thailand and Sweden.  If that happens you might want to stay long term in Thailand - until you get much older and then because your wife is citizen you can move back to Sweden at any time - either for a while, or forever. Obviously that would entail a lot of planning and working things out.

 

You are only taxable in Thailand on 'income' that you remit into Thailand. If you remit savings etc. then that is not taxable in Thailand - only income. But this whole new world of Expat taxation in Thailand is something that is going to evolve over the next few years - it would be a great time for you to only stay <180 days while it sorts itself out. When that is all sorted out in a few years (as much as anything can be in Thailand), then get financial and taxation advice in both Sweden and Thailand and decide what to do - plan well and be flexible.  Avoid the financial legal sammers here - especially the Scandinavian ones - yes there are a few here.

 

Drop me a direct message if you want more advice about my Swedish mate and what he is doing and why.

Thanks! The Multiple Entry Non-Imm. O E-visa has been removed as an option to select from the Thai Embassy in Stockholm unfortunately since the year change I believe. I heard this is the case from some other Thai Embassys in other countries to but I don’t know which ones specifically? But I am regardless thinking at moment in the direction that you advice. I like also to meet my now adult childrens and grand childrens and to stay away like almost 180 days in a row is long time…

 

The point of be flexible is important when it comes to Thailand . I did see the article on Asean Now and the thread on the new Thailand Visa fees from New Zeeland and is just to see what will happens with fees from other countries? When things changes I have to do so sometimes as well. I had some years ago Multiple Entry 1-Year Non-Imm. O-A Visa but that went not an option anymore when the requirement to have insurance in Thai insurance company went to force. 

[TheAppletons]

1 hour ago, Sea Traveller said:

<SNIP> I like also to meet my now adult childrens and grand childrens and to stay away like almost 180 days in a row is long time…

 

 

  You don't need to leave for 180 days consecutively.  

 

  The 180 days is a cumulative total for the year, e.g., you could stay for 90 days, leave for 60 days, stay for another 45 days, leave for 65 days, etc. 

 

  As long as the additive effect/value of your time spent in Thailand over the course of the year is less than 180 days, you'd not be considered a Thai tax resident.  

[Liquorice]

@Sea Traveller

Firstly, forget any implied tax implications, as it wouldn't apply to the situation you describe anyway.

 

You basically covered your alternative options to stay long term in Thailand, although I could suggest another option that would allow staying for almost 5 months without depositing any funds in a Thai bank account, that said I think it's always good practice to have funds in a Thai bank account if staying long term to cover any emergency medical expenses.

 

Obtaining and entering Thailand with a Non Imm O visa based on Thai spouse from the Thai Embassy in Stockholm would grant you a stay of 90 days. Correct that that visa is stamped as 'used' on entry, but the granted 90-day permit of stay is separate and valid. You could apply for a 60-day extension to the 90 days granted on entry to 'visit Thai spouse' towards the end of that 90 days, (1,900 BHT), which would allow you to stay for a total of 150 days,

 

2 hours ago, Sea Traveller said:

1. I travel to Thailand on the normal Single Entry Non-Immigrant O E-Visa based on that I am married with a Thai woman as I get via the Thai Embassy in Stockholm and stay up to 90 days i Thailand. I travel back to Sweden for a period sometime during the winter season and do then apply for a new SE (The ME is removed) Non-Imm. O E-visa before to go back to Thailand with another max. 90 day stay period. With this plan is get some ticket expense. But I don’t have to put +400.000 or +800.000 Baht to one of my Thai bank accounts.

Good sense to keep funds in a Thai bank account though, in case of emergency.
If you applied for a 1-year extension of stay based on Thai spouse, although 400K THB is required to be in a Thai bank account for 2 months prior to submitting the extension application, once the application is approved, you can immediately withdraw that 400K THB and use as living expenses for the remainder of your stay.

 

2 hours ago, Sea Traveller said:

2. I apply for and get a 1-Year Permission of Stay with 90-Day Reportings based on my Non-Imm. O E-visa as married with Thai women. I purchase also a Multiple Re-Entry Permit as to be flexible to be able to travel out and back to Thailand on a short notice as whatever happens.

Correct.

 

2 hours ago, Sea Traveller said:

Thus only option is to place either minimum 400.000 or 800.000 Baht on a Thai Bank account in your name only. I have speak with quite a few as in Udon Thani and everyone I spoken so far with advice me to Not even try to go with 400.000 option as married with a Thai women. They say is possible but so much more paperworks and that Immigration have done quite a few visits to some. For me personally as is to live partly in Sweden and Thailand I will for sure select based on the Retirement option but will for some years ahead use the minimum 800.000 Baht methode. 

Extensions based on retirement can be approved the same day while you wait.
Extensions based on Thai spouse have to be approved at regional level, which can take 30 days.

The so called 'extra' documents for extensions based on Thai spouse, is actually a few photos, a Kor Ror 2 or 22 and 2 copies of all documents. If that constitutes hardship, how do your friends manage to make it to a bar unaided. I'm assuming you married in Thailand?

[Sea Traveller]

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

It doesn't matter, from a tax perspective, what type of visa you have or whether you are married or not. The only thing that matters is the number of days you spend in Thailand, during each calendar year. If you stay more than 180 days in Thailand, you are Thai tax resident, under that you are not.

 

Please see below, a tax guide that may help you better understand what's involved.

 

 

Thanks Mike!
 

This was indeed a very comprehensive general Tax Guide which I now been reading but also saved as to be able to quickly find and read again. Seems to be very clear about the less than 180 days per calendar year stay in Thailand part.

 

But I will have to study this guide a more as it appears like transfer of money to Thailand as it appears can be causing tax issues under some cases? As for example when I recently sent quite a lot of money from my bank account in Sweden to my and my wifes bank Thai bank accounts for the purchase of a car i Thailand. I will have to see if any unwelcome surprises  comes up or not? And for just living in Thailand I have send money from Sweden on regularly base but this will be not in comparison get near as much per transaction. 

 

 

[Sea Traveller]

22 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

@Sea Traveller

Firstly, forget any implied tax implications, as it wouldn't apply to the situation you describe anyway.

Yes looks not apply to me as long as I make sure stay less than 180 days per calendar year in Thailand as per current and simewhat revised rules as come to force 1 January 2024.

22 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

 

You basically covered your alternative options to stay long term in Thailand, although I could suggest another option that would allow staying for almost 5 months without depositing any funds in a Thai bank account, that said I think it's always good practice to have funds in a Thai bank account if staying long term to cover any emergency medical expenses.

I will always keep funds on my and my wifes bank accounts in Thailand as is indeed a good practice. However if I am staying only max. 90 days each time it will be less than if I am on a 1-Year Permission of Stay.

 

The Emergency Medical Insurance when I and my wife are in Thailand have been solved as described this and past times as follows. Me and my wife have via my Home insurance in Sweden a freevof charge Medical Care Insurance that is valid world wide exept for USA and Switzerland for 45 days after leaving Sweden. To this one I pay for a extension medical care insurance for longer visits as get automatically in force on day 46. I have to been paid before come to force but best before paid before travel from  Sweden. If to stay longer than originally planned and paid for it can be extended for example while  we are  in Thailand as long as long as paid for before the before covered period has expired. All Swedish Insurance companies and some of the nearby countries as well own together SOS International Call 24 hours call service as located in Copenhagen. When possible I shold call them if something of medical care feels nesessary. SOS international will if they see a need for medical care then advice you what to do and if going to a hospital not hopefully far away advice which and if ambulance is to be called by them or by you? If accident and you from beginning ended on a not desirably bys SOS International get moved when safe to do so. In rare cases is also move from for example Thailand to Sweden but this again is rare as normally is much less expensive to get treament on the location. 

 

22 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

 

Obtaining and entering Thailand with a Non Imm O visa based on Thai spouse from the Thai Embassy in Stockholm would grant you a stay of 90 days. Correct that that visa is stamped as 'used' on entry, but the granted 90-day permit of stay is separate and valid. You could apply for a 60-day extension to the 90 days granted on entry to 'visit Thai spouse' towards the end of that 90 days, (1,900 BHT), which would allow you to stay for a total of 150 days,

Good! I did not know that it is possible to apply 60-day extension on the 90 days granted. I had only heard about and also applied on 30 days extensions in past basis when I entered on Visa Exempts and that is also possible to get 30 days extensions  on the local immigration offices if entered on a tourist visa. 

22 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

 

Good sense to keep funds in a Thai bank account though, in case of emergency.
If you applied for a 1-year extension of stay based on Thai spouse, although 400K THB is required to be in a Thai bank account for 2 months prior to submitting the extension application, once the application is approved, you can immediately withdraw that 400K THB and use as living expenses for th

Extensions based on retirement can be approved the same day while yoExtensions

Extensions

based on Thai spouse have to be approved at regional level, which can take 30 days.Thso called 'extra' documents for extensions based on Thai spouse, is actually a few photos, a Kor Ror 2 or 22 and 2 copies of all documents. If that ——— hardship, how do your friends manage to make it to a bar unaided. I'm assuming you married in Thailand?

 

This to is very valuable and new information as for me and extension/permission of stay based on Thai spouse get even lesepted an option for me as I look on it. We are married in Sweden but have got through the process of getting our marriage and change of the Surname on my wife registrered also in Thailand. It went rather complicated and took some time but this done. As from Sweden is not possible to get a Marriage Certificate. The only we can get is an ”extract from the population register” from the Swedish Tax authorities as on it can be seen we are married and on which day…This is  by the Thai Embassy in Stockholm as when apply for Non-Imm O Spouse E-visa. A certificate by the Swedish Embassy in Bangko or Marriage Certificate issued in Thailand is required. 

Thanks for all your comments and helpful comments! Sorry for make a mess when to commements but the Ipad seems not be the preferred device as writing as is if I am pointing where I want to edit it writes somewhere else…
 

[Sea Traveller]

As for me starting this  thread I am more than happy with the helpul responds as to now close this thread.

 

Hope also others have the possibility to get good medical coverage insurances within Thailand or through insurance companies for example in their home countries that covers good medical care in Thailand and not are very expensive. The insurances I get through Sweden does not have any age limitation but can have limitations for medical issues as  known when to get the insurance.

[DrJack54]

Closed at OP request.