Nine Anti-coup Leaders Detained

[Plus]

In Thailand though, still caught in an equivalent of Dickensian times in the UK, none of what Social Democrats the world over have fought for has been accomplished. So, out of necessity - a Social Democratic Party in Thailand would need to put main emphasis on labor right issues, work closely with Unions, etc. The Democrats in Thailand though don't. They mostly work with big business and middle class - they are a typical conservative party, and a regional power without any ideology but Thai typical part of the patron client system.

It was the Democrat party that introduced Thailand labour law protecting workers rights - like minimum amount of compensation for laid off staff, minimum number of holidays etc etc. Or will they become social democratic only when they work with labour unions, protecting all worker's rights doesn't count?

And if you find the time in your busy schedule, read books, or the Wikipedia article on the Democrats (modern Democrats are described there as "center-left and liberal", which is not Social Democratic), you will find not one single reference to the Democrats being social democratic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrat_Party_(Thailand)

I can't believe my eyes!!! Colpyat goes out and finds a quote!!! Too bad it goes against his own position that Democrats are "very conservative" and "any more right and it would be troubling".

And I don't know if Colpyat is aware of it or not, but if one clicks on definition of "center-left" in that wiki article, one will find this:

The centre-left includes social liberals, social democrats, democratic socialists and some greens.

Was it a deliberate misrepresentation or shoot yourself in the foot case?

I hope we can lay that idiotic arguing at rest now.

Idiotic - too true.

[ColPyat]

Idiotic - too true.

For Christ's sake, stop redefining Social Democracy, stop picking and choosing. The Democrats, as quoted are a party that was founded on monarchist-conservative principles. It has, as many such parties all over the world, softened its position, has adopted some of the ideas that Social Democracy have brought up. But it still is not a Social Democratic party.

Heck, along your definition all western conservative parties could be defined as Social Democratic because the have come over time to adopt certain policies of Social Democracy, such as a certain set of labor protection (which in Thailand though is still absolutely miserable, if you read the details, nothing to brag about, only a small concession that is still badly open to abuse) and universal healthcare.

Which they aren't - they are still conservatives, and fulfill within that definition a very important function in any Democracy.

I guess you are not from Europe, where Social Democracy was developed, and has its strongest tradition. You are therefore somewhat forgiven for your rather simplistic views on this ideology with a strong tradition and history. Social Democracy is not just a fashionable label to be attached whenever one feels fit to - it is something that has to be earned by tradition. And that is not a generally pro monarchist tradition that now includes a few slightly modern policies.

Thailand needs a Social Democratic Party - a left leaning party that can balance the conservative party (a role the Democrats do fulfill) , and therefore leading to a better functioning democracy in which all sectors of society can be represented.

But i wish to stop this debate now, it has been going on for too long. It tires me endlessly to debate with someone who has not even understood the basic principles of political theory and history, but who engages in a debate that is clearly over his head, trying to score points where there are no points to be scored. And worst of all, who gets confused by his own bias and redefines everything according to his slanted views, reads none of the recommended books because he feels they are "too communist", who has on countless occasions argued his preference for an authoritarian system along nationalist ideology, and who still hasn't explained his utterly anti-semitic comment of a few months ago.

Edited August 2, 2007 by ColPyat

[TAWP]

As someone that has lived the majority of my years under 'Social Democratic' rule I'm happy there isn't such a party in thailand. Nor that there are any marxist or communist ones.

That doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to be formed. I'm just happy there aren't any.

[ColPyat]

As someone that has lived the majority of my years under 'Social Democratic' rule I'm happy there isn't such a party in thailand. Nor that there are any marxist or communist ones.

That doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to be formed. I'm just happy there aren't any.

That is just a question of preference - i felt most happy when my place of birth was under a Social Democratic government. Sometimes a conservative government is necessary though, change is important. It's all a question of balance.

But anyhow, thanks that you agree with me that the Democrats cannot be labeled as Social Democratic.

[A_Traveller]

The problem here seems to be that people don't appreciate that what is right wing in one country is quite likely to map closely to left wing in another. In other words the supposed centre ground is not congruent. With few exceptions home grown 'leftists' in Thailand are still by comparison to Europe some way right of Attila the Hun. The same problem is exacerbated by using terms which simply don't fit, such as conservative here which might match reactionary or even more extreme in much of Europe.

It strikes me as bizarre {one might also suggest it reeks of condescension} that people are trying to transplant a euro-centric polity model to Thailand. It just does not fit. In my view Thailand would be better looking at the Korean and Japanese experiences for building a democratic framework. {No they are not perfect either but there again where is?} Though it should be noted that both required land reform to give ordinary people an opportunity to become, as is the fashionable phrase, 'stakeholders'.

After all there are many functions within the equation for a 'liberal' {using the term in the widest horizon} democracy, they include an efficient independent judiciary, police force, bureaucracy and central bank. Without these the {so called} elites are able to assemble voting blocks of rural & urban working class, whilst operating in shifting coalitions that produce little political capital, few {some would say none} lasting systemic benefits to the populous, and without having to concern themselves unduly with oversight.

Labels do not take us forward, tragically the parties here within the country don't seem to have understood that either.

Regards

[ColPyat]

The problem here seems to be that people don't appreciate that what is right wing in one country is quite likely to map closely to left wing in another. In other words the supposed centre ground is not congruent. With few exceptions home grown 'leftists' in Thailand are still by comparison to Europe some way right of Attila the Hun. The same problem is exacerbated by using terms which simply don't fit, such as conservative here which might match reactionary or even more extreme in much of Europe.

It strikes me as bizarre {one might also suggest it reeks of condescension} that people are trying to transplant a euro-centric polity model to Thailand. It just does not fit. In my view Thailand would be better looking at the Korean and Japanese experiences for building a democratic framework. {No they are not perfect either but there again where is?} Though it should be noted that both required land reform to give ordinary people an opportunity to become, as is the fashionable phrase, 'stakeholders'.

After all there are many functions within the equation for a 'liberal' {using the term in the widest horizon} democracy, they include an efficient independent judiciary, police force, bureaucracy and central bank. Without these the {so called} elites are able to assemble voting blocks of rural & urban working class, whilst operating in shifting coalitions that produce little political capital, few {some would say none} lasting systemic benefits to the populous, and without having to concern themselves unduly with oversight.

Labels do not take us forward, tragically the parties here within the country don't seem to have understood that either.

Regards

Some of the homegrown leftists though are also frighteningly left as well, lets not forget that. They are though outside the parliamentary system.

And yes, a land reform is highly advisable here in Thailand. I don't see any official party advocating this in any substantial way. The problem is, that with all its faults - TRT was the only party who has achieved that the previously only ruled over sectors became somewhat stake holders, to some extend.

I wouldn't make though such a clear separation between Thai or Asian political ideologies, as most of the right wing Thai ideologies have been borrowed heavily from western nationalist movements and somewhat adapted to Thailand. Why could Social Democracy not be incorporated as well one day?

[Plus]

To sum it up:

Acording to wikipedia definitions supplied by Colpyat:

"The Democrat Party.... has a center-left and liberal ideology."

"The centre-left includes social liberals, social democrats, democratic socialists and some greens."

How could he call them right wing conservatives and accuse ME or modifying definitions is probably not very interesting to TV members.

Generally speaking Democrat Party is the closest Thailand has to Social Democrats and, conversly, Social Democrats is the closest fit if Democrat Party in its current form is to be defined in Western terms.

And, in fact, it's the only party with ANY ideology, as even Colpyat's beloved TRT has to run to the extreme right winger Samak without stopping for a second to admit that ideologically they are worlds apart.

But yes, it's all "for the people", they need to carry their "people's policies". How could any sane person believe this bullshit???

[John K]

Sounds like political theory is clashing with political reality.

[TAWP]

But anyhow, thanks that you agree with me that the Democrats cannot be labeled as Social Democratic.

It wasn't in agreement, it was in a tone of 'lets say you are correct'.

[ColPyat]

But anyhow, thanks that you agree with me that the Democrats cannot be labeled as Social Democratic.

It wasn't in agreement, it was in a tone of 'lets say you are correct'.

So, for us non-native English speakers, something like - same same but different.

Right, got it.

[TAWP]

But anyhow, thanks that you agree with me that the Democrats cannot be labeled as Social Democratic.

It wasn't in agreement, it was in a tone of 'lets say you are correct'.

So, for us non-native English speakers, something like - same same but different.

Right, got it.

The same old ColPyat, always bending the truth to fit his own reality.

And no, it doesn't mean 'same same but different'.

But thanks for telling me what I was thinking. Be sure to tell me what I like for breakfast tomorrow morning.

[ColPyat]

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/08/03...al_30043525.php

Jaran entitled to protest: NHRC

The National Human Rights Commission yesterday defended its member Jaran Dittha-apichai's civil and political rights to protest against the coup.

Published on August 3, 2007

The NHRC, led by its chairman Saneh Chamarik, called a press conference after meeting to discuss the performance of Jaran, who was involved in a violent anti-coup rally in front of the residence of General Prem Tinsulanonda last month.

Saneh said the eight commissioners who attended the meeting concluded that Jaran had exercised his individual and political rights and the NHRC had no legal right to intervene and remove him from office.

Saneh said that people could decide for themselves if Jaran acted as an individual or as a human rights commissioner.

Two commissioners, Surasee Kosolnawin and Suthin Nophaket, did not attend the meeting.

Prominent human rights expert Gothom Arya agreed that Jaran exercised his rights in leading the protest and he, as member of the National Legislative Assembly, could not see any reason for the signature campaign to remove Jaran.

"I wouldn't join [in signing]. If there is any charge, it is still unclear and is a matter for the law and the police," he said.

Nearly 100 NLA members have signed a petition to sack Jaran, saying that Jaran "as a state officer acted against the government and the current political regime".

Angkhana Neelapichitr of the Campaign for Human Rights supported the move by the NLA members to remove Jaran, saying that Jaran worked for a government agency but threatened the rights of others.

"He spoke in front of General Prem's house and caused unrest and I don't think it's right," said Angkhana, who added that when former senator Kraisak Choonhavan was attacked in an earlier incident while observing an anti-coup protest, Jaran, who she claimed was at the protest site, did nothing to help.

However, the September 19 Network Against the Coup supported Jaran's actions, saying that as someone from the democratic system, Jaran had a duty to oppose the coup. The NLA members should ask themselves if they were acting as a rubber stamp assembly in their defence of the military-installed government, it said.

The anti-coup network also warned the NHRC not to become a "political tool", to stand firm on human rights principles and to protect the right to political assembly.

Jaran himself said that the NLA had no authority to remove him from his post and he would not resign.

Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

[Plus]

This is geting messy - he sure have rights to protest as a Thai citizen and being a member of NHRC should not restrict these rights (what kind of Human Rights Commission would restrict rights of its very members?), but does he have right to instigate violence?

I don't think so.

No one protested against his involvement in anti-coup movement until he was accused of instigating violence.

As a member of NHRC he also enjoys protection from being easily removed by politicians or anybody else, and apparently even from his own colleagues. It makes sense - they can't just ditch one of their own they happen to disagree with.

So legally he is well-protected and perhaps he should be allowed to sit on the Commission until sentenced by the Court.

But he should also learn to live with the heat - lots of people think it would be more appropriate for him to resign and if he openly challenges their opinion he should be prepared to face their reaction.

[ColPyat]

No one protested against his involvement in anti-coup movement until he was accused of instigating violence.

So, accusations already are a conviction?

And no, he didn't instigate any violence, careful editing/censoring of the news media makes it appear so. We should just wait and see the outcome of the real trial, preferably after the elections when there is a resemblance of freedom returned.

[hammered]

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/08/03...al_30043525.php

Jaran entitled to protest: NHRC

The National Human Rights Commission yesterday defended its member Jaran Dittha-apichai's civil and political rights to protest against the coup.

Published on August 3, 2007

The NHRC, led by its chairman Saneh Chamarik, called a press conference after meeting to discuss the performance of Jaran, who was involved in a violent anti-coup rally in front of the residence of General Prem Tinsulanonda last month.

Saneh said the eight commissioners who attended the meeting concluded that Jaran had exercised his individual and political rights and the NHRC had no legal right to intervene and remove him from office.

Saneh said that people could decide for themselves if Jaran acted as an individual or as a human rights commissioner.

Two commissioners, Surasee Kosolnawin and Suthin Nophaket, did not attend the meeting.

Prominent human rights expert Gothom Arya agreed that Jaran exercised his rights in leading the protest and he, as member of the National Legislative Assembly, could not see any reason for the signature campaign to remove Jaran.

"I wouldn't join [in signing]. If there is any charge, it is still unclear and is a matter for the law and the police," he said.

Nearly 100 NLA members have signed a petition to sack Jaran, saying that Jaran "as a state officer acted against the government and the current political regime".

Angkhana Neelapichitr of the Campaign for Human Rights supported the move by the NLA members to remove Jaran, saying that Jaran worked for a government agency but threatened the rights of others.

"He spoke in front of General Prem's house and caused unrest and I don't think it's right," said Angkhana, who added that when former senator Kraisak Choonhavan was attacked in an earlier incident while observing an anti-coup protest, Jaran, who she claimed was at the protest site, did nothing to help.

However, the September 19 Network Against the Coup supported Jaran's actions, saying that as someone from the democratic system, Jaran had a duty to oppose the coup. The NLA members should ask themselves if they were acting as a rubber stamp assembly in their defence of the military-installed government, it said.

The anti-coup network also warned the NHRC not to become a "political tool", to stand firm on human rights principles and to protect the right to political assembly.

Jaran himself said that the NLA had no authority to remove him from his post and he would not resign.

Pravit Rojanaphruk

The Nation

As off topic as most of the rest of the recent comments on here, but I wonder what statement Khun Jaral would like to make about the return of massacre man to supposedly head up the remanants of TRT. As a champion of human rights we can only speculate that he finds this an abhorent event and will in the due course of time condemn the political expediency that led to the return of one so linked to the biggest massacre ever, not to mention a bunch of book burning, in Bangkok. It is an opportunity for Khun Jaral to show he is not a hired gun of Mr. Thaksin as claimed by more than a few people. We will see.

[ColPyat]

[quote name='ColPyat' post='1452736' date='2007-08-03

As off topic as most of the rest of the recent comments on here, but I wonder what statement Khun Jaral would like to make about the return of massacre man to supposedly head up the remanants of TRT. As a champion of human rights we can only speculate that he finds this an abhorent event and will in the due course of time condemn the political expediency that led to the return of one so linked to the biggest massacre ever, not to mention a bunch of book burning, in Bangkok. It is an opportunity for Khun Jaral to show he is not a hired gun of Mr. Thaksin as claimed by more than a few people. We will see.

Given his track record - don't forget, he and his fellow human rights commissioners were the first ones who made a strong stand against the drug war killings, at a time while most PAD leaders and members of the present parliament, military junta and prime minister were strong supporters of the drug war or simply silent - he will not like that man at all. There are other protest leaders, at least one of them in jail now, who have survived that massacre, and they will have a hard time with that man as well.

But, Samak, when linked to the massacre you are talking about, had some very high level support at the time, and that makes it almost impossible to properly talk about it in the fullness this incident deserves.

[hammered]

[quote name='ColPyat' post='1452736' date='2007-08-03

As off topic as most of the rest of the recent comments on here, but I wonder what statement Khun Jaral would like to make about the return of massacre man to supposedly head up the remanants of TRT. As a champion of human rights we can only speculate that he finds this an abhorent event and will in the due course of time condemn the political expediency that led to the return of one so linked to the biggest massacre ever, not to mention a bunch of book burning, in Bangkok. It is an opportunity for Khun Jaral to show he is not a hired gun of Mr. Thaksin as claimed by more than a few people. We will see.

Given his track record - don't forget, he and his fellow human rights commissioners were the first ones who made a strong stand against the drug war killings, at a time while most PAD leaders and members of the present parliament, military junta and prime minister were strong supporters of the drug war or simply silent - he will not like that man at all. There are other protest leaders, at least one of them in jail now, who have survived that massacre, and they will have a hard time with that man as well.

But, Samak, when linked to the massacre you are talking about, had some very high level support at the time, and that makes it almost impossible to properly talk about it in the fullness this incident deserves.

Hi Colpyat

Yes there are many layers to everything that is happening or has happened. Personally I am just looking to see if there is anyone honorable enough to rise above the sides that everyone has taken and publically criticise the wrongs on their own side as well as on the other. After all if want to see any healing of the divides in teh country the only way forward will be for those on both sdies to accept their own mistakes etc. I dont live in hope. Now is a time of almost total hypocricy.

For the record and to be even handed there is also a need for coups past and present to be looked at, as there is also for abuses of democratic governments. At the end of the day some sort of South Africa style truth and reconciliation (which I think you once mentioned) process may be needed if there is a will in Thailand to actually exorcise the ghosts of some pretty horrendous activities. Still that remains something that few countries would go through and so I doubt it will happen, and lets be honest some thrive on the open hatreds of the past and the TRT rump versus the military could be seen as just the latest in these political vendettas. Certainly the odd alliances being forged implies more of a personal fight than an ideological one, but that is not new for Thailand.

[ColPyat]

Hi Colpyat

Yes there are many layers to everything that is happening or has happened. Personally I am just looking to see if there is anyone honorable enough to rise above the sides that everyone has taken and publically criticise the wrongs on their own side as well as on the other. After all if want to see any healing of the divides in teh country the only way forward will be for those on both sdies to accept their own mistakes etc. I dont live in hope. Now is a time of almost total hypocricy.

For the record and to be even handed there is also a need for coups past and present to be looked at, as there is also for abuses of democratic governments. At the end of the day some sort of South Africa style truth and reconciliation (which I think you once mentioned) process may be needed if there is a will in Thailand to actually exorcise the ghosts of some pretty horrendous activities. Still that remains something that few countries would go through and so I doubt it will happen, and lets be honest some thrive on the open hatreds of the past and the TRT rump versus the military could be seen as just the latest in these political vendettas. Certainly the odd alliances being forged implies more of a personal fight than an ideological one, but that is not new for Thailand.

I fear that we are still far away from any sort of reconciliation. The present conflicts within society root in the distant past of contemporary Thai politics and history. There still is an unhealthy mixture of ideology and profiteering on most sides in the power game dominating the events and debate.

[hammered]

Hi Colpyat

Yes there are many layers to everything that is happening or has happened. Personally I am just looking to see if there is anyone honorable enough to rise above the sides that everyone has taken and publically criticise the wrongs on their own side as well as on the other. After all if want to see any healing of the divides in teh country the only way forward will be for those on both sdies to accept their own mistakes etc. I dont live in hope. Now is a time of almost total hypocricy.

For the record and to be even handed there is also a need for coups past and present to be looked at, as there is also for abuses of democratic governments. At the end of the day some sort of South Africa style truth and reconciliation (which I think you once mentioned) process may be needed if there is a will in Thailand to actually exorcise the ghosts of some pretty horrendous activities. Still that remains something that few countries would go through and so I doubt it will happen, and lets be honest some thrive on the open hatreds of the past and the TRT rump versus the military could be seen as just the latest in these political vendettas. Certainly the odd alliances being forged implies more of a personal fight than an ideological one, but that is not new for Thailand.

I fear that we are still far away from any sort of reconciliation. The present conflicts within society root in the distant past of contemporary Thai politics and history. There still is an unhealthy mixture of ideology and profiteering on most sides in the power game dominating the events and debate.

Agreed on that, and a big event could shake everything even further.

[John K]

I found it amazing at the suggestion the 8 were political prisoners from the Bangkok post headlines. This was clearly a premeditate act in that they brought all their gear for an assault on Prem. Clearly criminal and not political.

[ColPyat]

I found it amazing at the suggestion the 8 were political prisoners from the Bangkok post headlines. This was clearly a premeditate act in that they brought all their gear for an assault on Prem. Clearly criminal and not political.

Not that clear.

Carefully edited/censored reporting in the mass media only gives you the impression.

[Mid]

judge , jury and executioner ....................

amazing how a loose anti group becomes a organised assembly of subversives ...............

[John K]

I found it amazing at the suggestion the 8 were political prisoners from the Bangkok post headlines. This was clearly a premeditate act in that they brought all their gear for an assault on Prem. Clearly criminal and not political.

Not that clear.

Carefully edited/censored reporting in the mass media only gives you the impression.

Colypat, they had rock the size of melons and according to Siripon other gear like gloves for barbed wire. Go back and look at the photos and tell me where they found that stuff laying on the streets of Bangkok. Certainly not at an excavation site, there is only dirt and clay under Bangkok not rocks. Premeditated no doubt at all in my mind.

[hammered]

I found it amazing at the suggestion the 8 were political prisoners from the Bangkok post headlines. This was clearly a premeditate act in that they brought all their gear for an assault on Prem. Clearly criminal and not political.

Its all a political game in the perception war on both sides. One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist.

[TAWP]

I found it amazing at the suggestion the 8 were political prisoners from the Bangkok post headlines. This was clearly a premeditate act in that they brought all their gear for an assault on Prem. Clearly criminal and not political.

Not that clear.

Carefully edited/censored reporting in the mass media only gives you the impression.

So why don't you inform us with facts - preferably with pictures and movies. That disrepute the pics and movies we have seen sofar. That according to you are edited.

[Tony Clifton]

I say release them all now on one condition.

Big, obvious and cumbersome red clown shoes must be worn 24/7!

[John K]

There is plenty more evidence to support premeditated:

It clearly was their goad to get arrested based on how cocky they acted when they got arrested. For the moment that seems to have backfired on them. Look how few are showing support for them, far less than to thousands who were part of the assault.

Meanwhile Thaksin is sitting comfortable spending other peoples money as if it were his own. If the 8 stay in jail, do you really think Thaksin will care? I doubt it seeing as he has set his own flesh and blood up for possible jail time.

Edited August 3, 2007 by John K

[ColPyat]

I found it amazing at the suggestion the 8 were political prisoners from the Bangkok post headlines. This was clearly a premeditate act in that they brought all their gear for an assault on Prem. Clearly criminal and not political.

Not that clear.

Carefully edited/censored reporting in the mass media only gives you the impression.

So why don't you inform us with facts - preferably with pictures and movies. That disrepute the pics and movies we have seen sofar. That according to you are edited.

Well, if you go to Sanam Luang, you can pick up a CD with an edited version of their view including footage that was not shown on television, for obvious reasons. If you combine both of what is shown there, and the edited version you can see on television - you will come closer to the truth of what really happened there.

[ColPyat]

For the moment that seems to have backfired on them. Look how few are showing support for them, far less than to thousands who were part of the assault.

Not true. Last weekend there were 10 000 people gathered at Sanam Luang.

I would suggest to have a look tonight and tomorrow at Sanam Luang yourself, and see how many people gathered. At weekends it has been a stable crowd of around 10 000 people, give or take, depending on weather as well. During the week it has been stable at around 5000 people, sometimes less, also depending on weather.

[hammered]

I found it amazing at the suggestion the 8 were political prisoners from the Bangkok post headlines. This was clearly a premeditate act in that they brought all their gear for an assault on Prem. Clearly criminal and not political.

Not that clear.

Carefully edited/censored reporting in the mass media only gives you the impression.

So why don't you inform us with facts - preferably with pictures and movies. That disrepute the pics and movies we have seen sofar. That according to you are edited.

Well, if you go to Sanam Luang, you can pick up a CD with an edited version of their view including footage that was not shown on television, for obvious reasons. If you combine both of what is shown there, and the edited version you can see on television - you will come closer to the truth of what really happened there.

Truth. Nobody it seems wants that even if it is possible to ever know - debatable. This is just a PR war. To date the Junta seem to have the upper hand, or at least judging by the way the international media presented what for them was a low interest story. "Never get involved in controversial acts such as riots or acts of violence if your opponent has more control of the media than you" - the art of war (fourth generation) by hammered