BOI LTR important to maintain qualifications

[Middle Aged Grouch]

LTR is definately useless and not worth the hassle for the retirees who are in Spain or south of France in Summer and who only want to come to Thailand for 4 months during the winter season back in Europe.

[oldcpu]

4 hours ago, Middle Aged Grouch said:

LTR is definately useless and not worth the hassle for the retirees who are in Spain or south of France in Summer and who only want to come to Thailand for 4 months during the winter season back in Europe.

 

There are many people for whom the Long Term Residence visa is not appropriate for.   It is after called a Long Term Residence Visa.  Note the word "RESIDENCE" in LTR?   People who only want to come to Thailand for 4 months of the year clearly will NOT be residents.  BoI designed this visa for those who wish to be Long Term Residents who meet certain financial situations.  Again - note the word "residents".   Why would someone who does NOT plan to be a resident, apply for a resident Visa? ??????

 

Thailand has many different Visas, and it makes sence that foreigners should apply for the Visa that is most suitable for their individual situation.

 

I've pointed it out before, and I will once again.  Go to the BoI website, and one will read that as of end-April-2024 there were 7,322 applicants for the LTR visa. Clearly those applicants do NOT believe the visa is useless, as they would not apply for such if they considered it useless.  Rather THEY see it useful.  Likely those 7,322 applicants looked at what the LTR visa had to offer, and they see advantages for THEIR situations. 

 

As noted , others will have different situations with regard to Thailand, and those others should apply for Thailand Visas that are appropriate for them.  No one on this thread is claiming everyone should apply for an LTR - JUST THE OPPOSITE.  This thread is for those who are interested in the LTR to share their knowledge (on qualification maintenance). 

 

I dare say the vast majority of expats to Thailand will find the LTR visa is not suitable for them, ... and that is perfectly fine.  They should look for and find other Visas.  But for the 7,322 LTR Visa applicants, if they meet the requirements, I hope their application is successful, as the LTR visa does have its advantages.

Edited May 10 by oldcpu

[samsung99]

I truly believe that the LTR “Wealthy pensioners” VISA is a lifesaver for many wealthy Pensioneers in Thailand.

 

You pay ZERO taxes on all money you bring into Thailand. That’s enough said. No other VISA e.g. Thai Elite allows you to live tax free in Thailand from money you transfer into Thailand.

 

And as a Bonus you have the right to stay unlimited aka resident in Thailand for 5/10 years.

 

Does anyone that has gone through the 80k requirement have some advice for people like me.

 

·         No pension (means around 50 years old and not yet in the pension system)

·         No monthly / yearly fixed income

·         Passive income solely from capital gains in Stocks & Cryptos. To be precise: The total value of my stock and crypto account increased by appr. 100k in 2023. Total Portfolio Value appr. 1 million USD.

 

2023 was obviously a good stock market year for me, so I qualified. However, there is no guarantee or let’s say it’s a given that I cannot fulfil the qualification every year. When the stock markets go down, I will lose a substantial amount instead of having a required capital gain of 80k.

Is such a volatile capital gain accepted by the BOI?

 

Anyone with experience?

 

A downside from this application is that you have to open your books toward the Thai authorities. From the moment you apply, they know you are “rich”. This might once backfire in the future because you can not pretend to be an average citizen anymore. I’m not feeling comfortable to show them all the cards I have…

 

Thanks for your thoughts, experience and answers!

[oldcpu]

14 hours ago, samsung99 said:

Does anyone that has gone through the 80k requirement have some advice for people like me.

 

·         No pension (means around 50 years old and not yet in the pension system)

·         No monthly / yearly fixed income

·         Passive income solely from capital gains in Stocks & Cryptos. To be precise: The total value of my stock and crypto account increased by appr. 100k in 2023. Total Portfolio Value appr. 1 million USD.

 

2023 was obviously a good stock market year for me, so I qualified. However, there is no guarantee or let’s say it’s a given that I cannot fulfil the qualification every year. When the stock markets go down, I will lose a substantial amount instead of having a required capital gain of 80k.

Is such a volatile capital gain accepted by the BOI?

 

I wish you good luck on your approach - and I hope you succeed.

 

I have an LTR visa (due to my pensions and investments in Thailand) and not due to my stock investments.

 

Still , i am curious if you will succeed.

 

I confess, based on my experience with BoI with obtaining self health insurance, I am not confident you will succeed.

 

The 'issue' , as I see it, is BoI may look not only for wealth meeting certain criteria, but they also want high confidence (or perhaps 'strong verification' is a better word) that such wealth is sustainable and repeatable. 

 

Hence they asked for tax returns from many of us, not for just 1 year, but they wanted tax returns for 2 years (in my case I ended up giving them 3 years due to unlucky timing on my part).  Further, they rejected stock/trading accounts (which had the necessary $100k US$ equivalent) for self health insurance, even thou the $100k US$ cash equivalent in the stock trading accounts was exceeded significantly (I dare say exceeded by multiple amounts).

 

So when it comes to proving the $80K US$ annual income for an LTR Wealth Pensioner Visa (and also proving the financial amount as a Wealth Global citizen), I think BoI may struggle to accept a stock portfolio.  

 

I wonder thou, if one submits a tax return (to the country where their stock portfolio exists), does that tax return show, over multiple years, an income that meets the LTR requirement?  If so, I ask myself if that would providing that tax return ONLY be adequate 'proof'/'verification' of income consistency and sustainability for BoI?

 

I am curious as to what others may post on this - but I am skeptical based on my limited experience here.  i.e I believe its not just having the wealth and income to obtain the LTR visa, but its able to prove to BoI that the wealth and income is verifiable and sustainable (all in my humble opinion) over time.  I could be wrong of course.

 

Best of luck in your efforts.

 

[Presnock]

3 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

I wish you good luck on your approach - and I hope you succeed.

 

I have an LTR visa (due to my pensions and investments in Thailand) and not due to my stock investments.

 

Still , i am curious if you will succeed.

 

I confess, based on my experience with BoI with obtaining self health insurance, I am not confident you will succeed.

 

The 'issue' , as I see it, is BoI may look not only for wealth meeting certain criteria, but they also want high confidence (or perhaps 'strong verification' is a better word) that such wealth is sustainable and repeatable. 

 

Hence they asked for tax returns from many of us, not for just 1 year, but they wanted tax returns for 2 years (in my case I ended up giving them 3 years due to unlucky timing on my part).  Further, they rejected stock/trading accounts (which had the necessary $100k US$ equivalent) for self health insurance, even thou the $100k US$ cash equivalent in the stock trading accounts was exceeded significantly (I dare say exceeded by multiple amounts).

 

So when it comes to proving the $80K US$ annual income for an LTR Wealth Pensioner Visa (and also proving the financial amount as a Wealth Global citizen), I think BoI may struggle to accept a stock portfolio.  

 

I wonder thou, if one submits a tax return (to the country where their stock portfolio exists), does that tax return show, over multiple years, an income that meets the LTR requirement?  If so, I ask myself if that would providing that tax return ONLY be adequate 'proof'/'verification' of income consistency and sustainability for BoI?

 

I am curious as to what others may post on this - but I am skeptical based on my limited experience here.  i.e I believe its not just having the wealth and income to obtain the LTR visa, but its able to prove to BoI that the wealth and income is verifiable and sustainable (all in my humble opinion) over time.  I could be wrong of course.

 

Best of luck in your efforts.

 

Actually the BOI from my experience really prefers the tax returns for the past couple of years as it shows sustained income over the 80K  the stickler may be in the 50K USD hospitalization part of the health insurance requirement.  The only way to know for sure is to fill out the TM.95 and ask the BOI folks.  They are very patient and helpful and speak English.  

[aublumberg]

14 hours ago, samsung99 said:

Does anyone that has gone through the 80k requirement have some advice for people like me.

 

·         No pension (means around 50 years old and not yet in the pension system)

·         No monthly / yearly fixed income

·         Passive income solely from capital gains in Stocks & Cryptos. To be precise: The total value of my stock and crypto account increased by appr. 100k in 2023. Total Portfolio Value appr. 1 million USD.

 

2023 was obviously a good stock market year for me, so I qualified. However, there is no guarantee or let’s say it’s a given that I cannot fulfil the qualification every year. When the stock markets go down, I will lose a substantial amount instead of having a required capital gain of 80k.

Is such a volatile capital gain accepted by the BOI?

 

Anyone with experience?

 

No personal experience with LTR-WP but a couple observations with regards to the LTR Wealthy Pensioner requirements: earned income does not qualify at all, only passive income. As per BOI website "unearned or passive income includes, but are not limited to pension, rental, capital gain, dividend, and interest payments". So capital gain in general seems accepted, at least in their generic overview. Not sure whether that includes crypto. However, under the list of requirement documents BOI states "Individual income tax return such as P.N.D. 90/91, BIR60, Form 1040, SA100, T1 General etc. showing income of no less than 80,000 [...] USD per year in the past 2 years. In case of “Wealthy Pensioner category”, please provide a pension certificate or individual income tax return e.g. 1099r or any documents showing UNEARNED or PASSIVE income such as interests, dividends, royalties or rental incomes etc. of no less than 80,000 [...] USD per year". So (a) they seem to want at least 2 years history and (b) there's no more mention of capital gains in this section and the examples given for passive income have a recurring connotation. 

 

At the end of the day every case is different, and I would suggest you speak to BOI directly about your case and ask whether the documentary evidence that you can provide is sufficient for LTR-WP or not. They are usually quite responsive and helpful. Good luck!

[LivinLOS]

On 5/10/2024 at 8:22 PM, samsung99 said:

I truly believe that the LTR “Wealthy pensioners” VISA is a lifesaver for many wealthy Pensioneers in Thailand.

 

You pay ZERO taxes on all money you bring into Thailand. That’s enough said. No other VISA e.g. Thai Elite allows you to live tax free in Thailand from money you transfer into Thailand.

 

And as a Bonus you have the right to stay unlimited aka resident in Thailand for 5/10 years.

 

Does anyone that has gone through the 80k requirement have some advice for people like me.

 

·         No pension (means around 50 years old and not yet in the pension system)

·         No monthly / yearly fixed income

·         Passive income solely from capital gains in Stocks & Cryptos. To be precise: The total value of my stock and crypto account increased by appr. 100k in 2023. Total Portfolio Value appr. 1 million USD.

 

2023 was obviously a good stock market year for me, so I qualified. However, there is no guarantee or let’s say it’s a given that I cannot fulfil the qualification every year. When the stock markets go down, I will lose a substantial amount instead of having a required capital gain of 80k.

Is such a volatile capital gain accepted by the BOI?

 

Anyone with experience?

 

A downside from this application is that you have to open your books toward the Thai authorities. From the moment you apply, they know you are “rich”. This might once backfire in the future because you can not pretend to be an average citizen anymore. I’m not feeling comfortable to show them all the cards I have…

 

Thanks for your thoughts, experience and answers!

 

They dont accept crypto at all.. even if you have > 1m USD crypto asset gain that year doesnt count 1 baht. 

I am confused by the process really, even tho I have a few 100k in capital gains last year I understand many of those are hard to demonstrate (crypto, physical precious metals etc) but I had a clearly documented 130k USD in passive income.. However as I live in Thailand, and have done for decades, I dont have a tax return to show this, I suspect thats what they want ?? I also showed almost 5m THB sent into Thailand in just 2023 spent. 

My 2023 app failed but they will not tell me why, however they repeatedly emphasized you are welcome to apply again.. OK so what about the application were you not happy with ?? We do not have to tell you !! OK so what do you want me to change ?? We do not have to tell you !! But I showed you 130k usd passive income 100k in the bank fpr insurance and 5m thb imported in 2023 whats not good enough ?? We do not have to tell you ??

At this point I have given up as I will spend my summer in Europe so couldnt collect it even if I was granted it now. 

I have since Jan started to have a company pay me 8k EU as a clear passive income (rent on IP) and will resubmit that next Dec, but the refusal is just strange.. We wont say why but please try again ?? Everything was there. 

[LivinLOS]

23 hours ago, oldcpu said:

The 'issue' , as I see it, is BoI may look not only for wealth meeting certain criteria, but they also want high confidence (or perhaps 'strong verification' is a better word) that such wealth is sustainable and repeatable. 

 

Hence they asked for tax returns from many of us, not for just 1 year, but they wanted tax returns for 2 years (in my case I ended up giving them 3 years due to unlucky timing on my part).  Further, they rejected stock/trading accounts (which had the necessary $100k US$ equivalent) for self health insurance, even thou the $100k US$ cash equivalent in the stock trading accounts was exceeded significantly (I dare say exceeded by multiple amounts).

 

So when it comes to proving the $80K US$ annual income for an LTR Wealth Pensioner Visa (and also proving the financial amount as a Wealth Global citizen), I think BoI may struggle to accept a stock portfolio.  

 

I wonder thou, if one submits a tax return (to the country where their stock portfolio exists), does that tax return show, over multiple years, an income that meets the LTR requirement?  If so, I ask myself if that would providing that tax return ONLY be adequate 'proof'/'verification' of income consistency and sustainability for BoI?

 

BOI lawyers made it clear to me stock returns were variable and not what they considered proof.. Dividend portfolio returns maybe.. 

Also insurance was bank deposit only not any invested assets.. My bank needs me to keep 100k in cash to retain premier / relationship manager etc so that I had but I have no idea really what they didnt like.. 

My guess is what they want are overseas tax returns but if you live here long term (I have been here since my 20s) then its unlikely you have them if you dont work here. 

[Presnock]

10 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

 

They dont accept crypto at all.. even if you have > 1m USD crypto asset gain that year doesnt count 1 baht. 

I am confused by the process really, even tho I have a few 100k in capital gains last year I understand many of those are hard to demonstrate (crypto, physical precious metals etc) but I had a clearly documented 130k USD in passive income.. However as I live in Thailand, and have done for decades, I dont have a tax return to show this, I suspect thats what they want ?? I also showed almost 5m THB sent into Thailand in just 2023 spent. 

My 2023 app failed but they will not tell me why, however they repeatedly emphasized you are welcome to apply again.. OK so what about the application were you not happy with ?? We do not have to tell you !! OK so what do you want me to change ?? We do not have to tell you !! But I showed you 130k usd passive income 100k in the bank fpr insurance and 5m thb imported in 2023 whats not good enough ?? We do not have to tell you ??

At this point I have given up as I will spend my summer in Europe so couldnt collect it even if I was granted it now. 

I have since Jan started to have a company pay me 8k EU as a clear passive income (rent on IP) and will resubmit that next Dec, but the refusal is just strange.. We wont say why but please try again ?? Everything was there. 

well any question about my finances and health was to give them for finance, my 1040R tax returns for 2022 and 2023.  I had the govt 1099R from which I file my taxes as it gives the total amount paid to me during year and taxes paid and health insurance paid but as for the health insurance, I have a US govt sponsored insurance that I had before I retired and kept that and the benefits booklet for that showed that hospitalization coverage was "unlimited" so that means to me and other Americans, more that the $50K that the BOI was saying they needed.  Another former govt retiree who has the LTR saw my response and said he ran into the same problem so he emailed the insurance company in the US and explained about the BOI needing the company to spell out that the hospitalization was at least $50K.  I did the same and got a letter (email) spelling out that very figure and BOI accepted it immediately.  Total time with 5-8 telephone calls to the BOI showed to me that they were very helpful and patient but that they needed certain documentation that the more senior advisors who say yea or nay would understand I think that is the reason.  So, I assume you are in a EU country and therefore I am not sure what documentation your govt provides to you yearly and thus I am not able to really provide you with anything.  Just remember, this is an opinion, I think the low-level people within the BOI are pretty well Fluent in English both spoken and reading text but more senior folks while they can sometimes carry on a conversation fairly well, sometimes certain written material such as insurance benefits pamphlets were quite extensive and while I highlighted some of the 17 pages of the same from my health insurer, 99% of it had nothing to do with the hospitalization so it snowed them under.  This is only my opinion but it seems thaty need government provide documentation that spells out the qualifictions of the LTR.  For me, it was almost too easy and took only 3 weeks from applying and approval but like I said above - 5-8 telephone calls too where they would spell what they needed and since I also have dealt with foreigners since I worked overseas for 30 years I learned I needed patience too om order to fully understand what they wanted.  I hope this helps somewhat but like I said I know my situation and this visa fits me perfectly in every aspect.  good luck

[Presnock]

11 minutes ago, Presnock said:

well any question about my finances and health was to give them for finance, my 1040R tax returns for 2022 and 2023.  I had the govt 1099R from which I file my taxes as it gives the total amount paid to me during year and taxes paid and health insurance paid but as for the health insurance, I have a US govt sponsored insurance that I had before I retired and kept that and the benefits booklet for that showed that hospitalization coverage was "unlimited" so that means to me and other Americans, more that the $50K that the BOI was saying they needed.  Another former govt retiree who has the LTR saw my response and said he ran into the same problem so he emailed the insurance company in the US and explained about the BOI needing the company to spell out that the hospitalization was at least $50K.  I did the same and got a letter (email) spelling out that very figure and BOI accepted it immediately.  Total time with 5-8 telephone calls to the BOI showed to me that they were very helpful and patient but that they needed certain documentation that the more senior advisors who say yea or nay would understand I think that is the reason.  So, I assume you are in a EU country and therefore I am not sure what documentation your govt provides to you yearly and thus I am not able to really provide you with anything.  Just remember, this is an opinion, I think the low-level people within the BOI are pretty well Fluent in English both spoken and reading text but more senior folks while they can sometimes carry on a conversation fairly well, sometimes certain written material such as insurance benefits pamphlets were quite extensive and while I highlighted some of the 17 pages of the same from my health insurer, 99% of it had nothing to do with the hospitalization so it snowed them under.  This is only my opinion but it seems thaty need government provide documentation that spells out the qualifictions of the LTR.  For me, it was almost too easy and took only 3 weeks from applying and approval but like I said above - 5-8 telephone calls too where they would spell what they needed and since I also have dealt with foreigners since I worked overseas for 30 years I learned I needed patience too om order to fully understand what they wanted.  I hope this helps somewhat but like I said I know my situation and this visa fits me perfectly in every aspect.  good luck

If you paid taxes wherever you are a tax resident, that is what they want to see.  Part of the new tax interpretations here is to find people that did not pay taxes anywhere and therefire the Thais want a piece of that action - I don't know this for sure but it seems to be from the meetings that the tax agents have hosted or embassy has hosted, that this is one of the people being looked at.  As for the health coverage if you self cover then I think it is equivalent to USD 100K and it must have been in an account for at least a year already.  Like I said, you may not be an American so I have absolutely little knowledge of your financial world - even if you are an American, based on what you wrote, I know nothing about that world.  My finances are from 40 years govt service and I kept my govt financed insurance - I have my finances planned (I am 77 years old) since I retired here 20+ years ago and remarried now with a 20 year old college kid so I wanted to insure that they were to be cared for once I do fade away and my type pension does just that.  I am basically ignorant of all the new electronic toys and banking schemes.  Good luck.

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

If you paid taxes wherever you are a tax resident, that is what they want to see. 

 

For most of us, its pretty hard to avoid filing a tax return somewhere.  EVEN if in some cases we were not a resident of the country.

 

I have not lived in Canada since 1995.  I lived in Germany from 1999 to 2019.  I have been living in Thailand for 5 years now.   

 

I still have to file a Canadian tax return every year !!!! (again I don't live in Canada and further I have not lived in Canada for almost 30 years) , because I now receive Canadian sourced "Old Age Security" (a very small amount of money) from the Canadian government. Further in my Canadian tax return, I am obligated to state the total of ALL my global income. If I were not to state that, I could be legally prosecuted by Canada.

 

I am fortunate thou, in the case of Germany, because my German pension is small (and because I am a non-resident to Germany), Germany specifically asked me to STOP filing a German tax return every year (unless my tax situation in regards to Germany were to change).  That (not being asked to file a return) astounded me - I had wished Canada would have done the same, although as it turned out (for the LTR visa) my having those Canadian tax returns did come in handy in the end - because I could show them to BoI (and the Canadian tax returns state the total of my Global income).

 

The area I am watching carefully in regards to having an LTR visa, is I am attempting to keep my Thai sourced income (from interest and such) under 150,000 THB year. I want to avoid what I think would be an inconvenience of being legally required to file a Thailand tax return  - although reading this forum, I note some expats consider it not such a big thing to file a Thai tax return.

Edited May 12 by oldcpu

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

 

For most of us, its pretty hard to avoid filing a tax return somewhere.  EVEN if in some cases we were not a resident of the country.

 

I have not lived in Canada since 1995.  I lived in Germany from 1999 to 2019.  I have been living in Thailand for 5 years now.   

 

I still have to file a Canadian tax return every year !!!! (again I don't live in Canada and further I have not lived in Canada for almost 30 years) , because I now receive Canadian sourced "Old Age Security" (a very small amount of money) from the Canadian government. Further in my Canadian tax return, I am obligated to state the total of ALL my global income. If I were not to state that, I could be legally prosecuted by Canada.

 

I am fortunate thou, in the case of Germany, because my German pension is small (and because I am a non-resident to Germany), Germany specifically asked me to STOP filing a German tax return every year (unless my tax situation in regards to Germany were to change).  That (not being asked to file a return) astounded me - I had wished Canada would have done the same, although as it turned out (for the LTR visa) my having those Canadian tax returns did come in handy in the end - because I could show them to BoI (and the Canadian tax returns state the total of my Global income).

 

The area I am watching carefully in regards to having an LTR visa, is I am attempting to keep my Thai sourced income (from interest and such) under 150,000 THB year. I want to avoid what I think would be an inconvenience of being legally required to file a Thailand tax return  - although reading this forum, I note some expats consider it not such a big thing to file a Thai tax return.

Sounds a lot more promising.  Yeah, Mike L. makes it sound like the folks he interacts with at the Revenue Department are somewhat like the BOI folks and very helpful.  I am not concerned with the LTR and  even if I didn't have that, I only have the govt pension.

[LivinLOS]

12 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

For most of us, its pretty hard to avoid filing a tax return somewhere.  EVEN if in some cases we were not a resident of the country.

N American mindset.. Its just not like that for Brits or Euros who do not have domestic source incomes. 

As a Brit, who was filing in 4 countries in a single year at one point due to many directorships / income streams, when you move here territorial tax obligations stop, you file non residence with a P85 and thats it, as long as you stay away (and have no UK income) no more returns. 

Been here since 2001 my last UK return was 2002.. Always remitted funds into Thailand the year after receipt and hence had no Thai liability or need to file. 

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, LivinLOS said:

N American mindset.. Its just not like that for Brits or Euros who do not have domestic source incomes. 

As a Brit, who was filing in 4 countries in a single year at one point due to many directorships / income streams, when you move here territorial tax obligations stop, you file non residence with a P85 and thats it, as long as you stay away (and have no UK income) no more returns. 

Been here since 2001 my last UK return was 2002.. Always remitted funds into Thailand the year after receipt and hence had no Thai liability or need to file. 

Yes, from what I hear, it thus makes the documentation of proof of income for the BOI.  I uderstand that but they are hamstrung by their instructions on what must be presented.  Possibly if enough folks that fall into this type situation could all write emails or letters to the BOI explaining in detail what your particular situation is, and IF you can provide bank statements or pay statements or something along with that letter maybe the BOI rep can suggest what else would be needed for their supervising officials can accept that as proof of financial or the 12 month account of a hospitalization coverage.  I sympathize with ll caught up in this situation and just feel blessed that the LTR fit perfect with my situation.  Good Luck

[oldcpu]

2 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

N American mindset.. Its just not like that for Brits or Euros who do not have domestic source incomes.

 

Indeed !   As noted I was most surprised when I received an official letter from the German government (ie European) advising I no longer needed to file a German tax return (as I was no longer a German resident and my small German pension (where there IS withholding tax withdrawn before I receive the monthly pension amounts) was too small for Germany to want to process a tax return).

 

Hopefully as noted elsewhere, you will find a way to convince BoI that you do indeed have the funds needed to achieve the philosophy of the LTR visa - despite your legally not having any tax returns to show them.

 

Best of luck here !

[LivinLOS]

22 hours ago, Presnock said:

Yes, from what I hear, it thus makes the documentation of proof of income for the BOI.  I uderstand that but they are hamstrung by their instructions on what must be presented.  Possibly if enough folks that fall into this type situation could all write emails or letters to the BOI explaining in detail what your particular situation is, and IF you can provide bank statements or pay statements or something along with that letter maybe the BOI rep can suggest what else would be needed for their supervising officials can accept that as proof of financial or the 12 month account of a hospitalization coverage.  I sympathize with ll caught up in this situation and just feel blessed that the LTR fit perfect with my situation.  Good Luck

Its odd as the BOI lawyers I consulted with on video calls before applying were all 'yes of course just document your earnings'. 

At this point I have no idea why its been denied.. That is the biggest frustration... I also used 100k banked instead of insurance and I now read that has to be banked for 1 year ?? It was banked for 1 year but I didnt show statements for the year. 

At this stage I have some summer travels.. Maybe look back into it in sept on return ? 

[LivinLOS]

On 5/7/2024 at 11:28 AM, Middle Aged Grouch said:

Most of the LTR process is plainly a the reflect of the bureaucratic nightmare image of Thailand with their absurd requests and maybe the bribes  commissions got from the local health insurance companies in Thailand. It is totally absurd to harass people from Europe for health insurance details or other invented requirements,  as by law all western europeans have full medical coverage that goes well beyond the 50'000 $ required. 

 

What are you claiming ?? 

That western health systems somehow extend to Thai hospitals ? 

[LivinLOS]

On 5/7/2024 at 4:07 PM, oldcpu said:

Now if you are talking about the 2nd five year permission to stay - no one yet knows for certain about that.

 

Any financial proof (to be maintained for the past 5 years) at the 5 year point is simply not truly known at this point and there is only speculation on this forum.  It stands to reason, if the LTR program is still in place in 5 years, and if say, BoI refused the second 5-year permission to stay because someones finances dipped below their initial 100% requirement to qualify,  ie ...  they failed to meet the requirement 100% during some period in those past 5 years ...  Then if that denial of a second 5 year period of the permission to stay were to happen, then that said individual could simply apply for another 10 year LTR visa, and in that case proof going back 5 years is not required.

 

So this bit about 'maintaining' annual needs to be taken with lots of grains of salt.

Also I asked the BOI Lawyers if you used the lump sum route can you spend it once the visa is issued (buying land real estate etc.. Not bonds or financial instruments) and they said yes of course. 

So how then would that 'maintaining' work ?? You imported it and proved it, you are free to spend it.. 

[Presnock]

57 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

 

What are you claiming ?? 

That western health systems somehow extend to Thai hospitals ? 

If any of the insurers of EU ex-pats will guarantee at least USD $50K for hospitalization at Thai hospitals, then there should be no problem.  Not all US insurers will provide that coverage either but some do and are willing to provide written confirmation of that for the insurer who can then use that guarantee for a BOI LTR.  If there are no EU insurers that will provide that coverage then it is clear under the qualification documentation, that the applicant must self-insure with a proven USD $ 100K account that is 12 months old.  The initial BOI officers checking an applicant's documents, has to insure that when the application is sent to the deciding officials for the visa, that the documentation does exactly that.  They are not dumb, they are fluent English speakers and are very patient and helpful in my opinion based on many decades of working with foreign government officials.  These BOI officials are a breath of fresh air so to speak and this visa, in my opinion is undoubtedly perfect for my situation at a reasonable cost to me.  If any current or prospective resident meets the qualifications and checks all of the other visas and compares cost and benefits it would have to be the best too!  However, I can's speak for all as I realize I am just one person whose current financial and insurance situation does qualify.

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, LivinLOS said:

Also I asked the BOI Lawyers if you used the lump sum route can you spend it once the visa is issued (buying land real estate etc.. Not bonds or financial instruments) and they said yes of course. 

So how then would that 'maintaining' work ?? You imported it and proved it, you are free to spend it.. 

I am no expert on Thai taxes, the BOI, the LTR, etc but reading about visas, Thai explanations from immigration and BOI to me say that in order to keep that visa, one must maintain the qualifications during the period of the visa.  I know from this forum that people getting other visas do not always maintain the qualifications they used to obtain that visa, especially when they talk about agents providing assistance.  I don't if they are telling the truth or exaggerating but sure seems like that has been going on for a long time.  As for me, I have never faked any qualification necessary for the visas I have held and within Thailand alone that is over 20 years of doing necessary re-newals.  I will easily keep the necessary qualifications for the LTR during the entire time I have that visa.  I do not require anyone else to get that visa or not in anyway.  I also realize that under some visas that I have never had, one does not need to maintain all of the monies throughout the period of the visa.  AS the Thais say " UP TO YOU".  Good Luck.

[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

I am no expert on Thai taxes, the BOI, the LTR, etc but reading about visas, Thai explanations from immigration and BOI to me say that in order to keep that visa, one must maintain the qualifications during the period of the visa.  I know from this forum that people getting other visas do not always maintain the qualifications they used to obtain that visa, especially when they talk about agents providing assistance.  I don't if they are telling the truth or exaggerating but sure seems like that has been going on for a long time.  As for me, I have never faked any qualification necessary for the visas I have held and within Thailand alone that is over 20 years of doing necessary re-newals.  I will easily keep the necessary qualifications for the LTR during the entire time I have that visa.  I do not require anyone else to get that visa or not in anyway.  I also realize that under some visas that I have never had, one does not need to maintain all of the monies throughout the period of the visa.  AS the Thais say " UP TO YOU".  Good Luck.

I agree but the question then becomes is the conditions of the visa 'to maintain 250k USD' or 'to import 250k USD which you can then spend'.. 

The lawyer I spoke to said the latter, but he also said and maintained on a 2nd call things other lawyers strongly dissagree with, as does the local labour office (the exemption for needing a work permit to work online for businesses outside of Thailand). Actually much of what was discussed was later changed, contradictory, he couldnt back up with law, etc. Colour me less impressed with the quality of advice. 

Edited May 14 by LivinLOS

[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

If any of the insurers of EU ex-pats will guarantee at least USD $50K for hospitalization at Thai hospitals, then there should be no problem.  Not all US insurers will provide that coverage either but some do and are willing to provide written confirmation of that for the insurer who can then use that guarantee for a BOI LTR.  If there are no EU insurers that will provide that coverage then it is clear under the qualification documentation, that the applicant must self-insure with a proven USD $ 100K account that is 12 months old.  The initial BOI officers checking an applicant's documents, has to insure that when the application is sent to the deciding officials for the visa, that the documentation does exactly that.  They are not dumb, they are fluent English speakers and are very patient and helpful in my opinion based on many decades of working with foreign government officials.  These BOI officials are a breath of fresh air so to speak and this visa, in my opinion is undoubtedly perfect for my situation at a reasonable cost to me.  If any current or prospective resident meets the qualifications and checks all of the other visas and compares cost and benefits it would have to be the best too!  However, I can's speak for all as I realize I am just one person whose current financial and insurance situation does qualify.

But he claiming 'ALL European' expats somehow have this cover by default, presumably he means from socialized medicine systems.. They dont.. 

This isnt a 'how does the BOI want it' thing he is making a very silly claim. 

[oldcpu]

6 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Its odd as the BOI lawyers I consulted with on video calls before applying were all 'yes of course just document your earnings'. 

At this point I have no idea why its been denied.. That is the biggest frustration

 

I am surprised that you were given no indication as to the refusal. 

 

In the process of my application, I received 11 !!! document requests - Some of which they had simply missed my documents, another case they had misunderstood my finances,  and in other cases they wanted more detail than what I had sent. 

 

The requests I received (to get my LTR visa)

 

1. They asked for a proof of pension document, or a tax return. I had ALREADY provided such (year-2020/2021 tax years) in my initial application in early-January-2023, so I simply sent it to them again.  It turns out, I learned later, they wanted a 2022 tax return, even thou this was January-2023 (and it was too soon for a year 2022 tax return to be submitted).  I should have phoned BoI and asked why?

 

2. For proof of investment in Thailand, they wanted proof of sale purchase of my condo - They noted they wanted an Or.Cor.16.  I had mistakenly provided the 'real estate agent' contract to buy my condo (and the deed to my condo), and so I then provided the Or.Chor.16 purchase document. (My Thai wife had the Or.Chor.16 document in our file cabinet - and I foolishly had never asked her what the document was).

 

3. They again asked for proof of a pension document, or a tax return.  Again I sent them my (year-2020/2021 tax returns and I also sent proof of my passive pensions via official documents - hoping that would be enough). As it turns out, it was not enough, they wanted my year 2022 tax return, even thou this was end-Jan-2023 and too early to submit my year 2022 tax return.  I should have phoned BoI and asked why?

 

4. They again asked for proof of a pension document, or a tax return. So I called BoI.  They stated this time, they stated on the phone wanted my year 2022 tax returns.  Clearly, I should have phoned them earlier.  Possibly if I had stood my ground, they would have accepted the official proof of government pension documents I had given them, but I decided not to fight city hall, and that I would 'rush' doing my year-2023 tax return to satisfy BoI.  This was early year 2023 and I had not yet submitted my tax return to Canada for tax year 2022. So it was some weeks went by before I could (a) get receipts for my 2022 tax return, (b) submit year 2022 tax return to Canada, and (c) get official Canadian acknowledgement of my tax return (which also listed my Global income that BoI wanted to see).  However BoI knew my Type-O Visa permission to stay in Thailand was good for another 11 months, so I was not rushed to get the LTR visa.

 

5.  They again asked for proof of investment in Thailand. I had already provided the Or.Chor.16 and my proof of 2-million THB purchase (copy of my bond book). So I sent that to them again, figuring they had misplaced such.  I learned later they wanted different proof for the bond purchase. I should have phoned them asking for clarification and I did not.

 

6.  By this time, they had my Canadian tax return.  But they then asked for my Canadian T4A tax form (associated with a Canadian Pension, that I did not yet receive as I had deferred my Canadian pension to age 70). So I phoned them, and also sent them an explanation letter, stating that I was not (yet) receiving a Canadian pension, and I was NOT using a Canadian pension for proof of passive income , and I noted I already exceeded the $40k US$ equivalent passive income with my application.  I can't for this day, figure out why they asked for this, unless it was some sort of 'quality check' to try and figure out why as a Canadian I was claiming a "Canadian Old Age Security" (as part of my income), but not claiming a Canadian Pension as part of my income.

 

7.  They again asked for proof of my investment in Thailand, noting my condo purchase was inadequate to achieve the $250K US equivalent (since 50% ownership was with my wife).  I once again sent them the Or.Chor.16 and a copy of my bond book showing $2-Million THB in bonds.  It turns out, they wanted something different, and that was not clear until the next request.  I should have phoned them asking for clarification and I did not.

 

8.  They again asked for proof of my investment in Thailand, but this time they made it clear they wanted more information on the Thai government bond that I had purchased.  I called BoI on the phone, stated the bond book is all the bank gives,  and learned that was NOT enough for them they wanted a bond certificate and they did not only want the 'bond book'.  As it turns out, getting a bond certificate was not feasible from the Bank - and it took me 6 weeks (almost) to sort that, where Bangkok Bank, to help me, wrote a letter to BoI for me exlaining "NO CERTIFICATE", and also Bangkok Bank added extra information to my Bond Book (giving BoI information they wanted which would nominally be on a bond "CERTIFICATE"), where this Bangkok Bank solution satisfied BoI.

 

9.  They asked for health insurance proof. I had previous given them proof of a trading account in Canada which significantly exceeded the $100k USD equivalent in cash, but they had missed my documents in the past, so I sent that to them again.

 

10.  They again asked for health insurance proof. I had previous given them proof of a trading account in Canada which significantly exceeded the $100k USD equivalent in cash, but this time they advised they would not accept an "investment account". They specified it had to be a SAVING account '12 months past'.  So I then sent then details of my Canadian "Registered Retirement Savings Plan" (RRSP) (like a USA 401k) which also significantly exceeded the $100k USD equivalent in cash.  Note the word "savings" in RRSP.

 

11.  They again asked for health insurance proof. I had previous given them proof of a RRSP (like a USA 401k) in Canada which significantly exceeded the $100k USD equivalent in cash, but this time they again advised they would not accept an "investment account".  They specified it had to be a SAVING account '12 months past'.  I phoned them, and they noted my RRSP (a self directed one) allowed me to trade stocks, and it was not acceptable even thou called a "Savings Plan".  So this time I sent them proof of a Foreign Currency Account (in Thailand) with money in Euros that exceeded the $100k USD equivalent in cash. I had not wanted to use this account (as I had other plans for the money), but I decided I could "restructure my finances" for my other plans, and use this acount as my Health Insurance proof.  They accepted that, and at that point, I had met all of their requirements to their satisfication.  In hindsight, I should have used this account immediately (or as noted in this forum - asked my European Cigna to write a letter stating my European Health Insurance (which has unlimited coverage) will provide up to $50K US$ equivalent coverage - I did not know that approach would work (ergo showing $100k US equiv in cash was not necessary for me).

 

While this seems a LOT, other than having to go to the bank to sort the bond book aspects, for the remainder of this I was sitting on my condo balcony with a fabulous sea view, my feet up, and sipping a glass of wine - and doing my phone calls and doing my data uploads from there.  This was a very comfortable process for me (given my situation) despite it being repetitive.

 

Being able to so all this from home - made it very easy.  ... Just a bunch of repetition (a lot of which was due to my stubbornness to not provide more information on my finances than necessary, or my not calling BoI to get clarifications).  

 

I could have sped this up if (1) I had instead not applied in January-2023, but rather applied in March-2023 (when I would have already done my year 2022 tax return to Canada),  (2) I was not so stubborn in not wanting to use my Foreign Currency Account as my health insurance proof, or (3) obtained a letter from my European Health Insurance provider with the $50K US coverage note (I had a generic European 'health insurance' coverage document which was not acceptable to BoI)  and (4) if I had known at the start to get Bangkok Bank to add more information to the Bond Book to satisfy BoI I could have sorted that ASAP, and (5) I should have phoned BoI more often for clarification.

 

Again - I am surprised you were given no indication as to why the refusal.  I assume you called BoI and asked why?

 

 

Edited May 14 by oldcpu

[Misty]

6 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

Its odd as the BOI lawyers I consulted with on video calls before applying were all 'yes of course just document your earnings'. 

 

I'm not sure what a "BOI lawyer"  is - is this a private sector firm charging a fee for advice, or a lawyer who works for the BoI directly, or something else? 

 

The reason I ask is that the LTR unit itself seems to be the best source of information and advice, and there's no fee involved.  My various applications were not at all straight forward or plain vanilla, and the LTR unit was great in getting it all done. There was no need to pay a third party for this.     

[LivinLOS]

5 minutes ago, Misty said:

 

I'm not sure what a "BOI lawyer"  is - is this a private sector firm charging a fee for advice, or a lawyer who works for the BoI directly, or something else? 

 

Thats what he described himself as.. The people you speak to when you email ltr(at)boi.go.th and set up the zoom / video calls.  

You didnt have questions and sort of pre screening by video call ?? 

[LivinLOS]

32 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

I am surprised that you were given no indication as to the refusal. 

 

Again - I am surprised you were given no indication as to why the refusal.  I assume you called BoI and asked why?

 

Me too, its the most frustrating aspect.. I uploaded it all.. month goes by 'consideration by officer' nothing happened.. Emailed.. nothing happened.. emailed again and the case progressed one step on the timeline (final reviewing??).. No contact.. Emailed again (almost 2 month mark now) and got a refusal by email with 'please try again'.. I asked why and the only responses I could get are 'we do not have to tell you.. please try again'.. 

Kind of maddening.. 
 

Quote

 

We apologize for the delay and regret to inform you that, after careful review by relevant government agencies, your LTR Visa application has been rejected as your qualification does not meet the specified criteria.

 

Please note that LTR Visa staff do not have the authority to endorse applications, and we lack access to specific details about the endorsement decision. Our role is limited to document screening and facilitating communication between the applicant and certified agencies.

 

The decision from government agencies is considered final, and applicants are not permitted to contact government officers directly to uphold the fairness and equality of the process.

 

We won't be able to provide further clarification on the reason for rejection in subsequent communications. Thank you for your understanding, and you are welcome to reapply when you meet the necessary qualifications.

 

I tried to ask what they would like me to change and got the same 
 

Quote

 

Please note that LTR Visa staff do not have the authority to endorse applications, and we lack access to specific details about the endorsement decision. Our role is limited to document screening and facilitating communication between the applicant and certified agencies.

 

The decision from government agencies is considered final, and applicants are not permitted to contact government officers directly to uphold the fairness and equality of the process.

 

We won't be able to provide further clarification on the reason for rejection in subsequent communications. Thank you for your understanding, and you are welcome to reapply when you meet the necessary qualifications.

 

 

So forgive me for being a little less than impressed in how to proceed or have the same opinions as others saying how clear the service is.. What do they want ?? As far as I can tell I showed everything they ask for. 

[Misty]

5 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

 

Thats what he described himself as.. The people you speak to when you email ltr(at)boi.go.th and set up the zoom / video calls.  

You didnt have questions and sort of pre screening by video call ?? 

 

No, that sounds like something new. Interesting, I hope those folks are helpful! It sounds like you don't pay them, which is good.

 

I first did a pre-application in Aug 2023, then formal application in Sep 2023.  Then switched LTR visa type in a complicated process in 2H 2023 (Change in qualification for LTR HSP made that one financially much better).   No videos or people calling themselves "BoI lawyers." Lots of calls, emails, and some in person visits though.

[Misty]

2 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

So forgive me for being a little less than impressed in how to proceed or have the same opinions as others saying how clear the service is.. What do they want ?? As far as I can tell I showed everything they ask for. 

 

Definitely understand the frustration. Can you go to LTR unit in person?  I did that a number of times, and that's when most of the really useful communication occurred.

[oldcpu]

1 minute ago, LivinLOS said:

 

Me too, its the most frustrating aspect.. I uploaded it all.. month goes by 'consideration by officer' nothing happened.. Emailed.. nothing happened.. emailed again and the case progressed one step on the timeline (final reviewing??).. No contact.. Emailed again (almost 2 month mark now) and got a refusal by email with 'please try again'.. I asked why and the only responses I could get are 'we do not have to tell you.. please try again'..

 

 

wow!  That is most puzzling.

 

It almost reads like the LTR application was approved at a lower level - but then someone in a higher level, did not like something in the process, and veto'd the application?  Pure speculation on my part. 

 

It might be worth trying again - if you have the energy to do so. 

[LivinLOS]

11 minutes ago, Misty said:

 

Definitely understand the frustration. Can you go to LTR unit in person?  I did that a number of times, and that's when most of the really useful communication occurred.

As I am in Chiang Mai its a trip but I was recently in bangkok and would / should have done.. I wasnt aware they accepted people as walk ins for advice. 

As said before even if I gained it now I wouldnt have ability to go and collect it due to travel plans so will review the process in Autumn..

I also started paying myself an 8k EUR a month, simple clean single payment for IP rental from one source company so there is an easy to understand 96k EUR passive income, as my income was made of many streams and perhaps they didnt like that.