Where do foreigners fit in the Thai hierarchy?

[bob smith]

1 minute ago, NorthernRyland said:

 

You said this before but surely you're joking right? How come foreigners can date women 30 years younger than them if they're so low on the scale? Can a Burmese construction worker marry a 30 year old when they're 60? I don't see those people can date ANY Thai women. 

 

Thai people are money obsessed and guess who has money? that's right, foreigners. Women aside, how do we do against Thai men? More money, taller, lighter skin is generally true. Are we really viewed that poorly here? 

 

From the perspective of Thai men, absolutely.

 

For the Thai women it depends where she is in her monthly cycle.

 

bob.

[thainet]

1 hour ago, bob smith said:

this is completely wrong, Charlie.

 

That is not how thai culture works at all!

 

bob.

Well Bob you ask the original question, then a few posts later you tell us how it really works. 🤔

[ChumpChange]

2 minutes ago, bob smith said:

Thais must therefore be very conflicted when it comes to foreigners.

 

They see us that way and yet millions depend on farang money to feed their kids!

 

what an existence.

 

bob.

The simple truth is that in reality none of this debate even matters. In any country foreigners never have equal rights to the native locals/citizens. In addition, locals rarely ever give foreigners the same respect as natives.
 

In many countries the immigrants are outright rejected by the native population. You can find that in many poor, developing, and rich developed countries. And even if you have money and contribute, it often doesn't earn you any better treatment or respect. Nor, if you get naturalized in a foreign country, are you often going to get treated any better by the local population. At best you get the right to live, work, vote, pay taxes, etc, but it often it still doesn't gain you any greater status amongst the locals in the social hierarchy if you have money or gain citizenship. 

At least in Thailand, if you are a foreigner, have money, pay your way, and don't bother anyone then they usually leave you alone and treat you with decency and politeness on the surface. That's the beauty of Thailand. Even though they might see you as an outsider and not value you equally as one of their own, you will at least be treated with superficial respect if you act friendly, dress cleanly, pay what you owe and don't patronize or make a fuss. 

[Yagoda]

Dont know about you, but there is only one Dude and his family above me in the hierarchy here. 

 

[OneMoreFarang]

49 minutes ago, KhunLA said:

To the title ..

... they / we don't.  We're incidental, irrelevant, tolerated as tourist, even less so as expats.

 

No different than citizens, as simply tolerated to serve and provide services and tax revenue to the elite in control.

 

I disagree - especially for the expats - farangs who live here since many years.

 

I think most tourists are seen as often strange creatures with too much money. Looking at many tourists I agree with this.

 

I think expats who live here, especially if they have a Thai wife, are somehow integrated.

Many Thais who I see regularly greet me and are friendly towards me, same as I treat them and be friendly.

We all know we have our differences. 

I think an important part is that we don't give Thais the idea that we are somehow better. They have a different culture than most of us. And we decided to live here. Why? Because many of us like to live here. If we respect the locals, then (in average) they respect us.

 

 

 

[bob smith]

4 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I think an important part is that we don't give Thais the idea that we are somehow better.

isn't this what Thais themselves do with pretty much everyone else whom they deem as inferior? Indians, Cambodians, Laos, Burmese etc.

is it OK for them to do it to others but others can't do it to them?

 

That's just my observation.

 

bob.

[ChumpChange]

Another really important point is that you are here by choice. You aren't a political refugee. Nobody is forcing you to do anything or live any particular way in Thailand and you can leave anytime that you want to. You have options. You are here because your life here seems better to you than it might be in your own country. So it's a good deal for you in your eyes no matter what the locals may or may not think of you. And what they think also doesn't affect your daily life in Thailand. So again, what this all means is that what they think really doesn't matter. It's what you think that counts. That's the only reason why you're here to begin with. 

[0ffshore360]

1 hour ago, bob smith said:

what kind of truth is it?

 

are you saying that foreigners cannot naturalize and become Thais?

 

and let me guess, those foreigners aren't really thais, right?

 

bob.

Quite right. Caucasian foreigners even if naturalized are indistinguishable from tourists in the eye and mind of the general Thai population. Other Asians are also not exempt from similar perception even when naturalized even if from multi generational immigrant backgrounds. It is not automatically a negative. Especially so in a more localized community or extended family setting where individual acceptance and appreciation can be achieved. Alternatively consider the constant reference to the origins of many prominent Thai politicians such as Thaksin.

I would defy any western Caucasian who in their home country who says they do not register the probable racial origin of a non Caucasian in their home territory. It does not automatically imply anything more than recognition . Discrimination is a different thing because that can present between people of same racial origin such as Caucasians.

Naturalized people become Thai citizens but not Thai.

 

[KhunLA]

11 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I think an important part is that we don't give Thais the idea that we are somehow better. They have a different culture than most of us. And we decided to live here. Why? Because many of us like to live here. If we respect the locals, then (in average) they respect us.

[VBer]

From my opinion:

-migrants from Asia

-low class

-foreigners

-middle class

- high class

[JimTripper]

Stopped worrying about it when I realized they were not all that smart. 

[Robert Paulson]

It’s easy to answer this question in my estimation just think what a cop or judge would do if you were up against the lowest of the low Thais like a homeless freak or a strung out prostitute. They would favor the Thais. Everytime. So you’re lower than the lowest. 

[nobodysfriend]

This thread is too full of generalizations .

 

Statistically seen , a certain percentage of Thais see foreigners in a specific way ... others do not , or think different about foreigners . It all depends on the individual , and the personal experiences this individual has or had with " foreigners " ...

 

Foreigners : Again , statistically seen , a certain percentage of foreigners are troublemakers who do not respect Thai culture or even care about ... Of course , in general , Thais become upset with this kind of disrespectful behavior . So would you if you were a thai national . But that is a certain statistical percentage and does not necessarily relate to any foreign individual himself .

 

If you live within a thai community , you are ' checked out for your behavior ' , if you do things in a good way , in general Thai people will like that and respect you for what you do and the way you behave . Being able to speak thai , or , at least , know a few thai jokes , is of great help  ...

 

The statistic does not fit on an individual , therefore thinking that all thais or farangs are the same just shows a very limited mindset .

In the community ( if you can call it a  'Community " because they are all different ) where I live in , people judge me for what I do and how I behave , not  just because I am not thai .

 

Some like me , others do not , but they do not interfere as long as I do nothing wrong .

 

 

[TXTony]

47 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I am happy that we frangs are a different group. We are out of the hierarchy and that means we can mix with anybody in Thailand. I knew a farang who lived at times in a slum and then he had a HiSo friend from the royal family. I don't think Thai can do that.

I can relate to this. I have friends that are unemployed or make about 8000 baht per month. I also have a range of friends including many millionaires and at least one billionaire. I treat everyone with respect until they prove that I cannot. 

[bob smith]

2 minutes ago, nobodysfriend said:

: Again , statistically seen , a certain percentage of foreigners are troublemakers who do not respect Thai culture or even care about ...

I don't care about Thai culture or my own.

 

Does that make me a trouble maker?

 

I believe cultures/nation states are a figment of the hominoids imagination. 

They don't exist.

 

There are just humans walking about the planet that were born in different places.

 

bob.

[Walker88]

I'm not sure all foreigners are just below Soi dogs, even among the elite.

 

Several years ago I was invited to a reception for Tiger Woods at the PM's residence. Tiger was chased around the entire night by hi-so women bedecked in Chanel and Armani, dripping with jewels, desperately trying to introduce their daughters to Tiger (who was single at that time). He's less Thai than Chinese (his Dad had a little Chinese blood) and he's not exactly fair skinned. He is, however, very rich and very famous.

 

To the extent Thais believe one has wealth and evidences some sort of status (in the Thais' minds), one moves up the social scale, leaving barking Soi dogs in their wake.

[Hummin]

Very few thais have asked me about my life, my opinions, what Im Thinking, and I found out thats how it is, so I agree with Charlie! It is your presence right here now thats matters to them, and how they percieves you!

 

Simply put your past is no interest to them. 

 

They judge you for who you are now, what you do now, your car, your house, how wisely you spend your money, status symbols,cars, house, locationand how you take care of your wife and how you treat the family.

 

If you are a single man in thailand, something is wrong with you, no man should live alone, be alone, and every man  need avwoman in their life to take care of them.

Very few thais have asked me about my life, my opinions, what I'm Thinking, and I found out that's how it is, so I agree with Charlie! It is your presence right here now thats matters to them, and how they percieves you!

 

 Simply put, your past is of no interest to them. 

 

 They judge you for who you are now, what you do now, your car, your house, how wisely you spend your money, status symbols,cars, house, location and how you take care of your wife and how you treat the family.

 

 If you are a single man in thailand, something is wrong with you, no man should live alone, be alone, and every man  need a woman in their life to take care of them

 

[BangkokReady]

I disagree with those who say that foreigners don't fit in at all.  Although we are of course not Thai, we still exist in Thai society (real or imagined) and therefore have a position within it.

 

I think it varies by the individual, both the foreigner and the Thai, in terms of their socio-economic class (a poor Thai might look up to a rich foreigner), but foreigners are still viewed as typically being at a low position within the social hierarchy in Thai society.

 

I get the impression that Thais don't always feel the need to make the allowances for foreigners that they would make for other Thais, but still often expect that they make them for them.  What I mean is, they might not be as polite or deferent to foreigners, but would still be annoyed if the foreigner did not show the expected level of respect to the Thai.  So the foreigner is expected to follow the Thai social rules with the Thai, but the Thai might not do so with the foreigner.

 

That's just a general feeling, I could be mistaken.

[nobodysfriend]

1 minute ago, bob smith said:

I don't care about Thai culture or my own.

 

That might be a mistake and the reason why you are not a happy man ...

 

3 minutes ago, bob smith said:

I believe cultures/nation states are a figment of the hominoids imagination. 

They don't exist.

 

" We " are all products of our upbringing and education what leads to our values in life which are , at least partly , responsible for our actions .

 

That is different in other parts of the world , in people who have a different philosophies or even religion from what we have .

 

A fact is that to make a better world , it would be nice to see people overcome their cultural differences  and work together to develop a strategy that enables our species ( that consists of many different nationalities and races ) , to survive in a rapidly changing world ...

 

May be social networks and even AI can help achieve this ...

[BangkokReady]

15 minutes ago, bob smith said:

I believe cultures/nation states are a figment of the hominoids imagination. 

They don't exist.

 

That's like saying that you don't believe that the individual teams in a pub trivia game exist.  But there they are, split into groups.

 

Sure, cultures/countries don't exist like a physical object, but they exist as an idea.  They have a shared identity and unique histories and experiences.  Often they have a unique racial/ethnic/religious makeup that separates them (possibly by design).

[connda]

1 hour ago, NorthernRyland said:

 

You said this before but surely you're joking right? How come foreigners can date women 30 years younger than them if they're so low on the scale? Can a Burmese construction worker marry a 30 year old when they're 60? I don't see those people can date ANY Thai women. 

 

Thai people are money obsessed and guess who has money? that's right, foreigners. Women aside, how do we do against Thai men? More money, taller, lighter skin is generally true. Are we really viewed that poorly here? 

 

"How come foreigners can date women 30 years younger than them if they're so low on the scale?"

You've missed the point.  Where do foreigners fit into the Thai hierarchy.

If the woman marries a foreign man, she essentially shares his rank and status within Thai society -- although she herself is still a Thai native and as an individual and when considered unassociated with her husband still fits within the Thai hierarchy as a Thai citizen -- but her husband rates around the status slightly below a soi dog.

Now - if a foreign women marries a Thai man?  That Thai man carries all the benefits of a Thai citizen and his foreign wife then shares his rank and status within Thai society -- and as such she is a valued and charished member of Thai society and is extended the opportunity to become a Thai citizen after three year, and should she product a Thai child with her Thai husband she is extended the opportunity to become a Thai citizen after one year.

Now the status of a foreign woman not married to a Thai man?  She too has the status that may be slightly above a soi dog as she has the potential to become a valued member of Thai society should she marry a Thai man. 

[OneMoreFarang]

I think it is amazing how many people here see themselves as being treated about the level of soi dogs.

Personally, I never had that experience.

That means option 1, I meet other people than you.

Option 2, you are a special sort of farang who is seen at the level of soi dogs...

[ChumpChange]

14 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

I think it is amazing how many people here see themselves as being treated about the level of soi dogs.

Personally, I never had that experience.

That means option 1, I meet other people than you.

Option 2, you are a special sort of farang who is seen at the level of soi dogs...

How they see you and how they treat you is very different. Two very different things. And that's the most important part. Who cares how they see you. High, low, or in between, doesn't matter. As long as they treat you with superficial respect and a smile that's all you need. If you think it's ever really going to be more than that then you are just fooling yourself. 
 

On the other hand, the OP constantly posts long complaints about how he's paying good money for things and still gets no politeness or respect. Now that's a problem if you can't even buy yourself some courtesy in Thailand. But people who are in that category of the OP are a rarity and are typically a product of how badly they treat others. But that's a subject for a whole different discussion. 

[richard_smith237]

18 minutes ago, ChumpChange said:

How they see you and how they treat you is very different. Two very different things. And that's the most important part. Who cares how they see you. High, low, or in between, doesn't matter. As long as they treat you with superficial respect and a smile that's all you need. If you think it's ever really going to be more than that then you are just fooling yourself. 

 

You've projected....     

Some of us can pick up on genuine like and respect vs superficial platitude... 

 

I have some very close genuinely true Thai friends...    through them I've made other acquaintances who are friendly, but I feel a underlying lack of genuine feeling (if that makes sense), with others I can feel a genuine like, respect, consideration... 

 

Other groups I can see are genuinely considerate and place me firmly within their 'bracket' in the Thai 'socio-totem-pole'....

 

18 minutes ago, ChumpChange said:

On the other hand, the OP constantly posts long complaints about how he's paying good money for things and still gets no politeness or respect. Now that's a problem if you can't even buy yourself some courtesy in Thailand. But people who are in that category of the OP are a rarity and are typically a product of how badly they treat others. But that's a subject for a whole different discussion. 

 

Thai's are as astute as anyone else...  they see what we see, are often more tolerant on the surface, but underneath make their judgements as we do.

 

They are able to place us on this 'socio-economic-educational totem pole' as easily as we can place each other, initially that judgement is based on appearance, behavior, even who we are with...  and that evolves as then know us more.

 

Thus: Some are treated like soi dogs because thats how they behave, others are treated with mutual and equal respect as that is manner of treatment they attract...  the often becomes genuine care

 

 

 

The difficulty I seem to encounter is when interacting with some Thai's who'd other Thai's would place lower on the socio-totem-pole, the uneducated Thai's who lack the discretion of how to place us, or through experience (mainly in area's of high tourist footfall) have had poor encounters and carry some form of grudge or are simply ignorant. 

 

This may occur more in tourist areas, less so in area's such as Bangkok where the 'type of expat' ranges from 'tourist to execs' so we are often treated with the benefit of doubt until we prove otherwise....  but this is the same anywhere in the world... 

 

So where do we fit in.

1) Exactly as other Thai's - treated with a respectful indifference until our position is established.

2) Once our 'position' on that socio-totem pole cab be established we are 'thought of' accordingly, but generally treated politely. 

 

How and where we fit in on that socio-totem-pole is something that is individual to all of us, there are no hard an fast rules.

 

 

 

 

 

[Purdey]

Westerners and Easterners (Asians) are thought of differently. Africans, more differently. Westerners are respected but can never be Thai. Asians are similar and 'understand' Thais. Africans are worst in their eyes. Remember how Tiger Woods refused Thai nationality because of how his mum was treated for having a child with a black American?

Thais make wild assumptions about westerners. So many examples of how different we "aliens"  are:

- You are so rich because your government gives you FREE money when you are old 

- you get FREE medical care and education

- you squeeze the toothpaste tube from the end not the middle (someone actually said this to me)

 

But in the hierarchy westerners are respected for all being rich, polite and caring (more than a Thai guy).

 

[richard_smith237]

59 minutes ago, connda said:

If the woman marries a foreign man, she essentially shares his rank and status within Thai society -- although she herself is still a Thai native and as an individual and when considered unassociated with her husband still fits within the Thai hierarchy as a Thai citizen -- but her husband rates around the status slightly below a soi dog.

 

A lot of the above also depends on the status of the Thai female... 

 

If she is of a well regarded status, this is often visible in the manner in which she speaks (socio-phonetics), the way she carries herself, dresses etc...      Thai's pick up on this and extend this status to the partner...

 

So the extension of status seems to work both ways...

 

i.e. 

Thai female of higher status - that status is extended to the husband (or until he shows otherwise).

Thai female of lower status - her status may be elevated slightly, but his may drop.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bob smith]

5 minutes ago, Purdey said:

Thais make wild assumptions about westerners. So many examples of how different we "aliens"  are:

- You are so rich because your government gives you FREE money when you are old 

- you get FREE medical care and education

....you can thank all the bar-stool philosophers for that false perception.

The stuff they come out with when they have had a drink beggars belief.

 

I've met about 10 lottery winners this year alone!

But the tight gits wouldn't even get a round in.

Make of that what you will..

 

 

bob.

[JoseThailand]

4 hours ago, ChaiyaTH said:

We do not fit in, and we are seen as a separated group with separated expectations etc. You will never be seen as part of them or comparable etc. In terms of expectations: of course they judge anyone, and they always expect the very best possible.

 

And that is the beauty of being a foreigner in Thailand!

[ChumpChange]

38 minutes ago, richard_smith237 said:

You've projected....     

Some of us can pick up on genuine like and respect vs superficial platitude... 

 

I have some very close genuinely true Thai friends...    through them I've made other acquaintances who are friendly, but I feel a underlying lack of genuine feeling (if that makes sense), with others I can feel a genuine like, respect, consideration... 

 

Other groups I can see are genuinely considerate and place me firmly within their 'bracket' in the Thai 'socio-totem-pole'....

 

Thai's are as astute as anyone else...  they see what we see, are often more tolerant on the surface, but underneath make their judgements as we do.

 

They are able to place us on this 'socio-economic-educational totem pole' as easily as we can place each other, initially that judgement is based on appearance, behavior, even who we are with...  and that evolves as then know us more.

 

Thus: Some are treated like soi dogs because thats how they behave, others are treated with mutual and equal respect as that is manner of treatment they attract...  the often becomes genuine care

 

The difficulty I seem to encounter is when interacting with some Thai's who'd other Thai's would place lower on the socio-totem-pole, the uneducated Thai's who lack the discretion of how to place us, or through experience (mainly in area's of high tourist footfall) have had poor encounters and carry some form of grudge or are simply ignorant. 

 

This may occur more in tourist areas, less so in area's such as Bangkok where the 'type of expat' ranges from 'tourist to execs' so we are often treated with the benefit of doubt until we prove otherwise....  but this is the same anywhere in the world... 

 

So where do we fit in.

1) Exactly as other Thai's - treated with a respectful indifference until our position is established.

2) Once our 'position' on that socio-totem pole cab be established we are 'thought of' accordingly, but generally treated politely. 

 

How and where we fit in on that socio-totem-pole is something that is individual to all of us, there are no hard an fast rules.

 

Yes, I didn't mean to say it's impossible to gain a higher level of acceptance amongst locals if you put in the effort to make friends and get to know people and then treat them with the same caring and generosity you would like from them. The same is also true the world over. People are people. I was just making a sweeping statement based on an accepted generalization about the superficiality of perceived acceptance of foreigners in Thailand. 

 

But as you said, at the lower levels in Thai society, it's much harder to get an acceptance from the locals, even when trying to get closer to them. Lack of education, feeling jealous of you, not understanding you, lacking their own confidence, making judgements based on stereotypes and perhaps, even a level of racism, all play a role. It isn't as much like that in other countries though. 

 

Regarding the OP, yes, he thinks he can act pitifully and still be treated well because he considers his money to be his calling card. But that rarely works well anywhere in the world with locals when you mistreat them, not even in poor and/or developing countries. He will of course deny that's how he does them. But "deny" stems from the word "denial" and there you have your answer when it comes to his experiences and interactions. For the most part, his stories and posts complaining about bad treatment in Thailand are better just ignored. 

 

Another point very often less discussed are the benefits of being and remaining an outsider. The less you fit in then the less you are expected to follow and adhere to any petty social norms that are required in order to fit in. That's what makes Thailand so pleasant for many of the long term foreigners living in Thailand. The locals care much less about how foreigners behave and foreigners aren't shamed in the same way that locals would be if they acted similarly. So foreigners have much more social freedom than locals do in Thailand. Of course if foreigners do cross the line and physically hurt a local or damage the property or reputation of a local then the foreigner can expect the legal ramifications to be exponentially worse than they would be for a local. 

 

Ask some Thai people living in the USA or Europe why they prefer living there though as opposed to living Thailand. Many will tell you more freedom. They don't have to act, dress, etc a certain way. Nobody cares what they do. More autonomy. 

 

So foreigners living in Thailand also benefit from more privacy/freedom/autonomy than the locals by not being accepted. So I much rather be an outsider and not be accepted too much into the Thai social hiarchy. I don't want to be considered too much of a local. No benefit. Just more social scrutiny. 

 

On the other hand, speaking Thai fluently reduces a bit of that social freedom for foreigners even though the language can be a valuable tool. Now you are expected to not only know the polite use of the language, but also to understand and fit in with social norms. So "going native" can and will reduce some/a lot of your freedom and autonomy. Eventually though you learn when to hide local language proficiency and stick to English. It can have its benefits too.  

 

I spend a lot of time in other Asian countries too and I purposely avoid learning the language and trying to integrate at all. I much prefer remaining an outsider and the benefits that go with "getting a pass" and being treated with kid gloves because I'm the all unknowing outsider. 

 

 

[Bert got kinky]

4 hours ago, bob smith said:

But you wouldn't be a foreigner. You would be Thai, with a Thai ID card.

whatever argument a native Thai would put to a naturalized one falls at the first hurdle when, at the dinner table, one presents the blue ID card which is the same as the native Thais.

 

don't you see the discrepancy here?

 

bob.

 

But you wouldn't be a foreigner. You would be Thai, with a Thai ID card.

You are absolutely correct here, you would definitely be Thai, So you can just merge into their society, unnoticed.

Very much in the same as American citizens, who happened to be the descendants of black slaves were able to easily merge into white America in places like Mississippi and Alabama in the 1960s.