Ireland's Profound Support for Palestine: A Historical and Political Analysis

[RayC]

1 hour ago, ChicagoExpat said:

I hope Israel recognizes a Catalan or Basque state.  Not quite apples to apples, but also not a bad way for payback.

 

Far from apples to apples. Payback for what? Can you explain how such a move would help any party (Israel, Palestine, Spain, Catalan or Basque separatists, the EU)?

[Excogitator]

4 hours ago, ChicagoExpat said:

I'm both refuting your arguments and not fitting the mold you want me to fit, so you run.  I'm the one with the nuanced view of the conflict, seeing fault on many sides, and I'M the "brainwashed fanatic."  You see things only from a pro-Palestinian point of view, and are totally ignorant of the actual history of this conflict and the region, and YOU "get it."

 

If you can't handle it when someone politely challenges something you said, as I initially did, and you make up lies about what I said and after several posts it's clear you haven't the least idea what you're talking about... JUST SHUT UP.

Lol, triggered and brainwashed...

[Excogitator]

4 hours ago, jayboy said:

But that is what you appear to be doing - only Palestinians/Muslims good and Israel/Jews bad.

Only in your mind. I said nothing of the sort..

[RuamRudy]

16 hours ago, ChicagoExpat said:

If they believe installing Hamas as an internationally recognized government will lead to such things as liberal Western social values... well, it's hard to know what to say about that.

What led to liberal western values? So you think that they have always been there? 

[ChicagoExpat]

7 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

What led to liberal western values? So you think that they have always been there? 

Not sure of the relevance?

[ChicagoExpat]

11 hours ago, Excogitator said:

Lol, triggered and brainwashed...

Lol, stupid with no self-awareness.

[ChicagoExpat]

16 hours ago, RayC said:

 

Far from apples to apples. Payback for what? Can you explain how such a move would help any party (Israel, Palestine, Spain, Catalan or Basque separatists, the EU)?

Sure -- it would be a useless gesture designed to get under the skin of the other country.  Help anyone other than a feel-good gesture for one side (just like the other gesture)?  Likely not.

[ChicagoExpat]

21 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

What led to liberal western values? So you think that they have always been there? 

Not sure of the relevance?  But sure I'll answer.  A long a complicated history that involved social, philosophical, and religious values -- the Judeo-Christian tradition, the Enlightenment, Marxism, the American and French revolutions... many many things, some in opposition to each other.

 

Did that help?

[RuamRudy]

32 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

Not sure of the relevance?  But sure I'll answer.  A long a complicated history that involved social, philosophical, and religious values -- the Judeo-Christian tradition, the Enlightenment, Marxism, the American and French revolutions... many many things, some in opposition to each other.

 

Did that help?

 

It certainly did. It shows that you recognise that renaissance are not overnight, spontaneous events. They come through the freedom of individuals to act and think independently. 

 

Fundamentally, we all have the same basic needs and desires. When it boils down to it, there is zero reason to assume that Palestinians are and different to the rest of us. 

 

The question therefore is, should we continue to allow Israel to oppress, dispossess and dehumanise them because we don't like the people in charge of them, or should we recognise that they have a fundamental right to the same freedoms we enjoy?

 

Admittedly, there will be issues along the way. Generations of anger at how Israel and the world has abused them cannot be washed away in an instant, but with support from the rest of the world, hopefully a prosperous and peaceful Palestine can return.

[Excogitator]

59 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

Lol, stupid with no self-awareness.

Projecting again I see.

You have some real issues man.

Take a chill-pill, relax.

 

[ChicagoExpat]

5 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

It certainly did. It shows that you recognise that renaissance are not overnight, spontaneous events. They come through the freedom of individuals to act and think independently. 

 

Fundamentally, we all have the same basic needs and desires. When it boils down to it, there is zero reason to assume that Palestinians are and different to the rest of us. 

 

The question therefore is, should we continue to allow Israel to oppress, dispossess and dehumanise them because we don't like the people in charge of them, or should we recognise that they have a fundamental right to the same freedoms we enjoy?

 

Admittedly, there will be issues along the way. Generations of anger at how Israel and the world has abused them cannot be washed away in an instant, but with support from the rest of the world, hopefully a prosperous and peaceful Palestine can return.

Well, among the ways I think you might be off here is that you seem to assume that 1) Palestinians will (eventually) want Western values.  I don't think that's a given.  And think there is plenty of reasons to assume Palestinians, and many other cultures, ARE INDEED "different from the rest of us."  Heck, WE'RE "different from the rest of us."  There is no 100% consensus in the West on what values are right and good for society.  The idea that the Islamic world, or other world cultures, want Western values is on its face wrong.  2) And you can see from my other responses that I completely and totally reject a simplistic assignment of blame to this conflict, so I reject the premise of "the question."

[ChicagoExpat]

5 minutes ago, Excogitator said:

Projecting again I see.

You have some real issues man.

Take a chill-pill, relax.

 

Awesome comeback!  If you're ever up for, you know, discussing the subject intelligently I'm game.

[RuamRudy]

12 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

Well, among the ways I think you might be off here is that you seem to assume that 1) Palestinians will (eventually) want Western values.  I don't think that's a given.  And think there is plenty of reasons to assume Palestinians, and many other cultures, ARE INDEED "different from the rest of us."  Heck, WE'RE "different from the rest of us."  There is no 100% consensus in the West on what values are right and good for society.  The idea that the Islamic world, or other world cultures, want Western values is on its face wrong.  2) And you can see from my other responses that I completely and totally reject a simplistic assignment of blame to this conflict, so I reject the premise of "the question."

 

Why should whether a people subscribe to 'western values' be the arbiter of whether they should be relived of oppression, especially when, as you admit, the very notion of 'western values' is subjective? There are plenty of countries that reject 'western values' but live in peace, indeed in collaboration with, the west. 

[Excogitator]

14 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

Awesome comeback!  If you're ever up for, you know, discussing the subject intelligently I'm game.

Thats better.

 

I was commenting factually and calmly, then you barged in, disregarded any facts and views that didn't conform to your bias, and reacted with anger as soon as I pointed that out.

 

Not cool, and it doesn't set the tone for a meaningful conversation.

 

Anyway. I have no quarrel with anyone in here, and I wish you a good day.

 

[RayC]

7 hours ago, ChicagoExpat said:

Sure -- it would be a useless gesture designed to get under the skin of the other country.  Help anyone other than a feel-good gesture for one side (just like the other gesture)?  Likely not.

 

So a retaliatory "useless" gesture, which offers little, if any, practical benefit to Israel but which would potentially alienate traditional allies.

 

A rational decision would be to be avoid doing so but rationality seems to be a dwindling resource in this conflict.

[ChicagoExpat]

6 hours ago, Excogitator said:

Thats better.

 

I was commenting factually and calmly, then you barged in, disregarded any facts and views that didn't conform to your bias, and reacted with anger as soon as I pointed that out.

 

Not cool, and it doesn't set the tone for a meaningful conversation.

 

Anyway. I have no quarrel with anyone in here, and I wish you a good day.

 

What you're saying, though, simply isn't true.  This is my first comment to you.  It wasn't "barging in, disregarding facts" etc.

 

This really needs to be qualified.  I too think that someday there should be a Palestinian state but also believe that now is 100% NOT the time to do it.  It DOES reward Hamas -- saying anything else is an obvious untruth, and practically speaking... there's nothing to recognize.  Who would run this "state", where the controllers of half the territory are corrupt, incompetent and ineffectual and controllers of the other half are quite literally bloodthirsty murderers (who wiped out representatives of Fatah in a brutal purge)?  It's sadly hilarious that pretty much EVERYTHING Hamas stands for, and SO MUCH Palestinians would choose to make the law of their land, would be anathema to Irish and EU values.

 

 

[ChicagoExpat]

22 minutes ago, RayC said:

 

So a retaliatory "useless" gesture, which offers little, if any, practical benefit to Israel but which would potentially alienate traditional allies.

 

A rational decision would be to be avoid doing so but rationality seems to be a dwindling resource in this conflict.

First of all, don't take comments made in a forum like this as serious policy proposals.  That said, Israel owes these "traditional allies" nothing; clearly they weren't worried about alienating Israel when they did this.  My point is, turnabout is fair play and Spain in particular is in no place to be trying to force an issue.

[RayC]

12 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

First of all, don't take comments made in a forum like this as serious policy proposals.  That said, Israel owes these "traditional allies" nothing; clearly they weren't worried about alienating Israel when they did this.  My point is, turnabout is fair play and Spain in particular is in no place to be trying to force an issue.

 

I am fully aware that this is a discussion forum as opposed to a legislative chamber. However, one reason for these discussion forums is to discuss policy (alternatives).

 

I did not say that Israel 'owed' allies anything. I was pointing out that at a time when Israel needs all the support that it can get - imo Israel needs the EU more than the EU needs Israel -  getting involved in a diplomatic tit-for-tat would not be the best course of action.

[Somjot]

@Excogitator, @ChicagoExpat

 

Guys, please stop arguing,

 

except one or two other posters in this thread like @RuamRudy, you are the only ones delivering interesting and informative posts.

 

Most members post only a few words, which have been clearly brainwashed into their minds, when it comes to the Middle East topic.

You guys don't and I can clearly see that both of you are well educated and have informed yourselves about the topic.

 

Yet you have different opinions, which makes your discussion interesting and valuable.

You could learn a thing or two from each other and the rest of us could learn a lot from you.

 

Back in the day, if we would hear a person with a completely opposing opinion sitting at another table, we would invite him to our table, buy him a beer and say, “Let's talk”.

Sure, discussions could get heated, yet we never insulted each other, as we had a so-called “culture of debate”.

Unfortunately, this has been by cancel culture.

 

If you side with Palestine, you are automatically a Hamas supporter and anti-Semitic, if you side with Israel, you are automatically a friend of apartheid, a white supremacist and a child slayer.

I personally side with none of them but I do understand that both (talking about Palestine and Israel now) are somehow fighting for their existence.

 

I only side with those innocent people, especially the children, no matter if Palestinian or Israeli, who have been maimed and killed by the orders of completely incompetent leaders, who should be displaced ASAP and pay for their crimes as they are not willing to find a peaceful solution.

 

And I find it absolutely shocking when people in our western world with our western values still condone and actively support the actions of an army, which deliberately targets doctors, aid workers and journalists and burns children alive.

 

The most famous of them was Hind, a 5-year-old girl hiding in a car and surrounded by the bodies of her family members, who just had been shot by the IDF. Hind called her mother, begging for her life and after the IDF finally issued a clearance to the Palestinian authorities for an ambulance to go and rescue the girl, they murdered both, the two aid workers in the ambulance and 5 year old Hind.

 

I won't even try to understand how an adult man, a trained soldier, is able to aim at an innocent girl and fire bullets into her little body.

But in my opinion every person, who condones such an action and supports the army, who issued those orders, has completely lost his humanity.

 

By the way, what are actually our western values and how do other cultures perceive them?

Don't get me wrong. I think those values, like freedom, equality, freedom of speech, justice and same rights for every person, human rights and so on are among our most valuable achievements.

Yet somehow, we do not apply them to everyone.

 

When we hear radical Muslim, we imagine a guy with black hair and a black beard wearing an explosive belt trying to kill hundreds.

When they hear Christian, they imagine a plane dropping bombs and soldiers invading their country.

 

Al Qaeda committed a horrible crime on September 11. At that time, they had 70,000 insurgents spread over 60 nations, so maybe only a few thousand of them in Afghanistan, which has a population of 41 million.

Yet we started a war and invaded the country leading to a death toll of almost 7000 US military or contractors, 70,000 Afghan military, more than 100,000 Afghan civilians until we finally found out, oops, the bad guy is in the neighboring country.

 

Or the second Iraq war, we started because of Saddam’s “weapons of mass destruction”, from which we definitely knew, they don't exist and which led to hundreds of thousands being killed.

Not only a few on our side.

 

Interestingly all those Hollywood war movies with all those heroes somehow forget that actually we are the invaders sending troops to and throwing bombs on foreign countries, killing thousands of innocent civilians, yet we keep being the good guys and the other ones, who are actually protecting their country, and their families are the bad guys.

 

Brainwash accomplished.

 

The media coverage has never been so widespread like in the actual conflict in the Middle East and the message it sends to the rest of the world is clear:

The western values are only applied for western people. The human rights which should protect every human being on this planet are only applied to western people.

Which means, the rest of the world is not seen as human by the west, who created those rights.

 

This message, the exposure of our double standards has reached the rest of the world, and it will have a deep impact on our future.

More and more countries will turn away from us. It is no coincidence that Thailand has applied to be a member of the BRICS states.

 

Most of our economies are stagnating or on their way down; the actual incidents will only worsen that.

 

However, please keep the discussion civilized and your personal emotions out of it.

 

Apologies, if anyone feels patronized by me. Never was my intention.

And being a non-native speaker, I may have expressed myself in a wrong way.