Make take on the new tax laws and panic

[xeniv23]

On 6/9/2024 at 3:26 AM, wmlc said:

May I ask how you think they would enforce this regulation on people that refuse to file and ignore that letter you described ? Especially, if they don't insist on seeing any evidence of you filing before doing your extension. I've given my ideas of how they could enforce it and I don't think they have the budget, man power, or the organization skills to take on such a large task. What are your ideas on this?

 

Further, I was just thinking that the letter you described would be similar to the overstay warning they often get us to sign at immigration. However, the difference is that overstay is easily enforced on exit out of Thailand or during a spot check in a club, bar, or roadside stop. 

I can easily imagine a Thai universe in which I am sitting across from the Thai IO at my annual extension interview and the IO says "Where are your tax documents proving that you have filed and paid taxes in Thailand on your worldwide income?"  Game over at that point.  In addition you just never know how the IO you are sitting in front of will interpret the law.  Arbitrary and capricious are a couple of words that come to mind.  

[wmlc]

3 minutes ago, xeniv23 said:

I can easily imagine a Thai universe in which I am sitting across from the Thai IO at my annual extension interview and the IO says "Where are your tax documents proving that you have filed and paid taxes in Thailand on your worldwide income?"  Game over at that point.  In addition you just never know how the IO you are sitting in front of will interpret the law.  Arbitrary and capricious are a couple of words that come to mind.  

Just like you can use an agent to do your retirement visa if you don't have the 800 K or you don't have 12 months of bank statements showing 65,000 Baht per month, I am sure you will be able to use an agent on the off chance what you are describing happens. Don't imagine too much though lol.

Edited June 10 by wmlc

[foreverlomsak]

9 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

That was last year's change to the existing law, removing the "1-year seasoning" provision from the remitted income rules.

 

This new proposed legislation will tax worldwide income, remitted or not, superseding the "seasoning" clause.

Taxing remitted sum is on the books and will be implemented, it doesn't require changes to the law for it to happen.

Taxing world wide income is still at the proposal stage and will require new laws to be passed to allow it to be enacted, so is possibly not going to happen.

[JohnnyBD]

9 minutes ago, xeniv23 said:

I can easily imagine a Thai universe in which I am sitting across from the Thai IO at my annual extension interview and the IO says "Where are your tax documents proving that you have filed and paid taxes in Thailand on your worldwide income?"

And, my response would be, I didn't stay in your country for 180 days, therefore I am not a tax resident.

[wmlc]

Look what happened today guys. No more entry fee to Thailand. This has been trying to get passed for months now. Weed is legal. Weed is not legal. 60 day visa exemption June 1st. Oh sorry we made a mistake, please wait. Old tax law that was not enforced for years gets amended that is geared towards Thais, expats go crazy, there is no enforcement. Thais don't care. Random government official mentions something about world wide tax system. Thais ignore it and expats go even more crazy. Still no enforcement. New government gets elected. Election decision not accepted. Next Bangkok post will post a story saying Pattaya officials will enforce prostitution and close walking street to open a family friendly area. Wait, this already happened. Anyone see a trend here? 

Edited June 10 by wmlc

[Letseng]

On 6/9/2024 at 10:56 AM, wmlc said:

 

Considering that the 180 day rule has been around for years and just some changes on what income is included were amended this year, I would say everyone  is overreacting about all this tax news. Why? Because of enforcement. Until they announce any enforcement measures, I would not even worry. The more logical statement is "IF" they announce. I don't think there will be a "when". Why? Because they didn't enforce it before, so they likely won't enforce it now. Regarding ways they could enforce it. Currently, they only enforce the filing of personal income tax in Thailand when one needs to renew a work permit. Moving forward, they could use the exit and entry history from immigration and send notices out, but then what? They could impose stricter bank of Thailand regulations where banks would need to notify the revenue dept more often on the money you receive from abroad. Then what? They could ask immigration to request proof you filed personal income tax before they extend your Retirement visa or Thai wife visa. ****For all you ridiculous people, extension of stay based on being retired or married to a Thai....geeze who cares. Most members understand visa and visa extension and it's easier for them to comprehend.*** So, anyways, then what? Immigration won't want to deal with all this. That's for sure. 

 

In my opinion, all this will be too much trouble for the Thai government. They won't be able to organize all this properly. They would have to make an online website for foreigners to register for a tax ID. They would have to have a concrete plan of enforcement with multiple government sectors  involved. All that to force foreigners to file. Yes, that's right. Force them to file, not pay. With most countries, there are DTAs to prevent people from being double taxed. 

 

Guys, they can't even get the weed laws straight. They can't even get the 60 days visa exemption announcement straight. How can we assume they will get the tax laws straight and a system in place that would take years of planning and multiple government sectors to enforce. It will never happen. Just like it never happened before. 

 

When I saw the latest announcement how they will implement a world tax system, I laughed hysterically. I wish Thailand the best of luck, but I don't think they will be able to pull any of this off. Besides, a new government will come along in a few years and change the strategy again on all these things. Enjoy your retirement in Thailand guys and stop moaning about stuff that has not happened yet and most likely won't. 

We can live in hope. 

[xeniv23]

7 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

And, my response would be, I didn't stay in your country for 180 days, therefore I am not a tax resident.

But I did and they have the 90 day reports and TM30s on file.  So.....

[Expat68]

9 hours ago, xeniv23 said:

I can easily imagine a Thai universe in which I am sitting across from the Thai IO at my annual extension interview and the IO says "Where are your tax documents proving that you have filed and paid taxes in Thailand on your worldwide income?"  Game over at that point.  In addition you just never know how the IO you are sitting in front of will interpret the law.  Arbitrary and capricious are a couple of words that come to mind.  

If it comes to that everyone will go through an agency, that is probably what they want

[JohnnyBD]

1 hour ago, xeniv23 said:

But I did and they have the 90 day reports and TM30s on file.  So.....

Sorry Mr. xeniv23, your extension-of-stay is rejected and you have 7 days to leave my country or face arrest...

Edited June 11 by JohnnyBD

[Guderian]

16 hours ago, topt said:

I am looking at the calculation that, if it comes to pass, whether it is worth the cost of becoming more nomadic or whether in fact that doing so will cost more than the likely tax I would have to pay plus all the inconvenience.

 Yes, indeed, the financial calculation is simple enough, but the personal cost of the upheaval is down to each individual to decide. When they were only talking about taxing remittances to Thailand it was a no-brainer for me, stay put and cough up whatever small tax they may decide I owed, if any. Taxing my worldwide income, though, most of which is offshore and tax-free at source, is another matter altogether. I'm not really interested in spending my retirement filling in tax returns and paying accountants and juggling my affairs to minimise my tax liability, I haven't done so for the last 20 years and see no reason to start now. The cheapest option would be to spend 5 months of the year in Cambodia or Malaysia. I could drive the car there and use it, which would save money over renting a vehicle, and then rent a house, which would be the only real additional cost over staying put in Thailand, as you have to eat and drink and use electricity wherever you are. Say the local equivalent of 30K THB/month, or 150K THB for each annual visit. The TRD doesn't have to come up with a particularly onerous tax bill to make the migration worthwhile, and then it's down to our own subjective estimate of the personal cost of the inconvenience.

[patman30]

 

On 6/9/2024 at 6:38 PM, bg53 said:

The Thais who work abroad are not tax residents. 

pretty sure not everyone is the same
Many Thais who work abroad do so illegally,
so YES they are not tax residents in the country they are working
so no tax is paid on their earnings
Thai gov wants a slice of that action.
 

[patman30]

On 6/9/2024 at 6:48 PM, bg53 said:

You think those girls will ever pay tax? Who knows what they earn?

That is exactly the point, they will not be able to just send money home or bring back lumps without the possibility of being audited
they will not waste their time on small fry
but some farm girl who just bought her mum a 10m baht house may raise some eyebrows
they can no longer just say the money came from elsewhere

[KhunHeineken]

23 hours ago, foreverlomsak said:

how would they know who is high net worth

Tracking large transactions, which would include deposits from overseas. 

 

Australia tracks every transaction over $10,000. 

[KhunHeineken]

On 6/10/2024 at 5:11 AM, connda said:

Well said.  Kick back, relax, wait for 2025 - or - until the Thai government publishes concrete laws which includes written enforcement measures (and still wait until 2025) and then see what shakes out.  Then plan-act accordingly. 

As per Mike The Mod's calculations, the 180 days in Thailand, whereby one will become a tax resident of Thailand, is the 27th June 2024.  After that, you are caught in the net. 

 

Those who POSSIBLY stand to lose a lot of money in tax, probably should leave Thailand before the 27th June 2024, and return after the 1st January 2025, and then observe what happens to those who have remained the whole time.

 

Everyone has different circumstances, but that famous saying is now also true for the Thai government as well.  "Only put into Thailand what you are prepared to lose." 

[wmlc]

I really don't think this will happen the way people are saying.

Edited June 11 by wmlc

[MeePeeMai]

17 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Tracking large transactions, which would include deposits from overseas. 

 

Australia tracks every transaction over $10,000. 

 

The USA does as well.  

[KhunHeineken]

8 minutes ago, wmlc said:

Mass exodus guys. Book your flights now. Sell your condos. Divorce your wives. Move to Cambodia. Super Thailand and efficient Thailand is coming after your money. *****Breaking news***** Thailand hires 1000 new government officers to work in the Revenue Dept. Immigration implements a 180 day visa exemption scheme so they can transfer officers to the retirement  extension section to make sure you don't get away with not showing proof you have filed your taxes and paid. "Its on folks"

Very sarcastic, but I appreciate your humor. 

 

Those with considerable money to lose, probably should vacate Thailand before the 27th June 2024, in the same way high net worth individuals seek out the cheapest tax jurisdiction for their money, and sometimes for them personally.  Eg.  Monaco.

 

As for hiring extra staff, it will be more like they contract some IT guys in, or re-task their current IT section to have the data bases in the departments communicate with each other. 

 

The immigration data base can be tweaked to calculate the amount of days inside Thailand each calendar year.  This would be based on your passport / face / fingerprints entering / exiting Thailand.  Just some coding for some geeks.  No big deal.  

 

Also, probably ramp up their online tax reporting portal for different languages, higher bandwidth, uploading documents etc to cater for foreigners.  Yes, like 90 day reporting, it will crash, throw you out, can't register yourself, can't sign in etc etc.   They will probably extend from 8th April 2025 the cut off time to cater for foreigners, but ultimately, because they will be turning a baht out of foreigners, they will get something in place.  

 

In my opinion, there will be chaos, but after announcement after announcement, I just can't see all of this going away.  It tells me they are working on it.  Too much easy money involved, either legit, or through "agents."

 

Maybe the best to hope for is the policy is postponed until 1st January 2025. 

[Presnock]

On 6/9/2024 at 6:15 PM, KhunHeineken said:

You have to produce a bank document for the 800k to immigration. 

 

What's stopping the TRD demanding you show them a bank document showing the total of deposits in your bank account/s for the calendar year, and based on those totals, minus some allowances, is what you pay in tax in order for them to give you the document you need for your extension?

 

I know everyone wants to go on about what's "assessable" income, savings etc etc blah blah.  They will not care because they haven't got a clue.  They will throw a figure at you, based on bank deposits.  Pay it, or no extension.  They know foreigners will pay. 

 

It will be messy, possibly unjust for some, and some tax evasion for others, but they will make money out of it, whereas, they never did before, and that's all they care about, the extra money coming in.  TIT.

Well I for one would not be intimidated by not knowing my financial situation in relations to this or any other new tax laws.  They can claim all they want but I am well aware of the laws concerning my finances so all they have to do is change the laws and THEN let us know.  Until then I am relaxing and enjoying life here without worrying about something that may or may now ever happen here.  Good luck to all.

[NoDisplayName]

47 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

As per Mike The Mod's calculations, the 180 days in Thailand, whereby one will become a tax resident of Thailand, is the 27th June 2024.  After that, you are caught in the net. 

 

Those who POSSIBLY stand to lose a lot of money in tax, probably should leave Thailand before the 27th June 2024, and return after the 1st January 2025, and then observe what happens to those who have remained the whole time.

 

Everyone has different circumstances, but that famous saying is now also true for the Thai government as well.  "Only put into Thailand what you are prepared to lose." 

 

This is true of the current remittance policy change that came into effect in January.  But most posters seem to be reducing their remittances, and income prior to Jan 2024 still falls under the old rule.

 

The NEW legislation for worldwide income won't be approved for a while, and the regulation "should" come into force Jan 2025 at the earliest.  In that case tax filings would be due March 2026 on 2025 global income.

 

I'm assuming D-day will be June 27, 2025 to avoid tax residency and global income being taxed.

[Presnock]

3 hours ago, Guderian said:

 Yes, indeed, the financial calculation is simple enough, but the personal cost of the upheaval is down to each individual to decide. When they were only talking about taxing remittances to Thailand it was a no-brainer for me, stay put and cough up whatever small tax they may decide I owed, if any. Taxing my worldwide income, though, most of which is offshore and tax-free at source, is another matter altogether. I'm not really interested in spending my retirement filling in tax returns and paying accountants and juggling my affairs to minimise my tax liability, I haven't done so for the last 20 years and see no reason to start now. The cheapest option would be to spend 5 months of the year in Cambodia or Malaysia. I could drive the car there and use it, which would save money over renting a vehicle, and then rent a house, which would be the only real additional cost over staying put in Thailand, as you have to eat and drink and use electricity wherever you are. Say the local equivalent of 30K THB/month, or 150K THB for each annual visit. The TRD doesn't have to come up with a particularly onerous tax bill to make the migration worthwhile, and then it's down to our own subjective estimate of the personal cost of the inconvenience.

so not paying any taxes on earned income for he last 20 years...you sound like one of those that they are hoping to catch with these new laws written for you in particular that will catch others too.

[KhunHeineken]

6 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

This is true of the current remittance policy change that came into effect in January.  But most posters seem to be reducing their remittances, and income prior to Jan 2024 still falls under the old rule.

 

The NEW legislation for worldwide income won't be approved for a while, and the regulation "should" come into force Jan 2025 at the earliest.  In that case tax filings would be due March 2026 on 2025 global income.

 

I'm assuming D-day will be June 27, 2025 to avoid tax residency and global income being taxed.

I see your point.

 

The point I am making is, for those who stand to lose a lot of money, in order to pay no tax at all, and be able to observe how it unfolds, with no exposure to either tax, they should consider vacating Thailand before the 27th June 2024. 

 

Basically, spend less than 180 days in Thailand in 2024 and they can't touch you. 

[wmlc]

29 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Very sarcastic, but I appreciate your humor. 

 

Those with considerable money to lose, probably should vacate Thailand before the 27th June 2024, in the same way high net worth individuals seek out the cheapest tax jurisdiction for their money, and sometimes for them personally.  Eg.  Monaco.

 

As for hiring extra staff, it will be more like they contract some IT guys in, or re-task their current IT section to have the data bases in the departments communicate with each other. 

 

The immigration data base can be tweaked to calculate the amount of days inside Thailand each calendar year.  This would be based on your passport / face / fingerprints entering / exiting Thailand.  Just some coding for some geeks.  No big deal.  

 

Also, probably ramp up their online tax reporting portal for different languages, higher bandwidth, uploading documents etc to cater for foreigners.  Yes, like 90 day reporting, it will crash, throw you out, can't register yourself, can't sign in etc etc.   They will probably extend from 8th April 2025 the cut off time to cater for foreigners, but ultimately, because they will be turning a baht out of foreigners, they will get something in place.  

 

In my opinion, there will be chaos, but after announcement after announcement, I just can't see all of this going away.  It tells me they are working on it.  Too much easy money involved, either legit, or through "agents."

 

Maybe the best to hope for is the policy is postponed until 1st January 2025. 

You are really paranoid. Have you bought your ticket yet?

[KhunHeineken]

14 minutes ago, Presnock said:

Well I for one would not be intimidated by not knowing my financial situation in relations to this or any other new tax laws.  They can claim all they want but I am well aware of the laws concerning my finances so all they have to do is change the laws and THEN let us know.  Until then I am relaxing and enjoying life here without worrying about something that may or may now ever happen here.  Good luck to all.

It would depend on an individual's personal financial circumstances. 

 

Stand to lose a little, sit back and laugh at the mess.  Stand to lose a considerable amount of money, then one is faced with a more serious decision.  Stay, or go, for the year 2024, and possibly only 179 days inside Thailand a calendar year going forward. 

 

Everyone has different circumstances. 

[Presnock]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

It would depend on an individual's personal financial circumstances. 

 

Stand to lose a little, sit back and laugh at the mess.  Stand to lose a considerable amount of money, then one is faced with a more serious decision.  Stay, or go, for the year 2024, and possibly only 179 days inside Thailand a calendar year going forward. 

 

Everyone has different circumstances. 

exactly! that is what it is best if one educates oneself on the current laws.  IF one is paying taxes every year anyway then there should be little change.  A difference could occur if one's income is below the lowest level or if one has income that is counted different in one's resident country as opposed to the that persons tax residency.   Fortuanately several generous individuals have taken their free time to try to educate as many on this forum as they can.  At the same time, "agents" seem to be chomping at the bit so to speak in hopes of being needed when that tax collectors come around.  Good luck to all!

[Presnock]

On 6/10/2024 at 12:26 PM, KhunHeineken said:

Spend more than 180 days inside Thailand in a calendar year and you will be deemed a resident of Thailand for tax purposes. 

 

One could even rack up 180 days on tourist visas doing visa runs. 

 

The type of visa/s used to stay the 180 days is irrelevant. 

well until the govt cancels the royal decree of the LTR, that tax on remittances is a moot point,  And as I mentioned previously my earnings are solely a US govt pension so unless they also terminate the treaty with the US in the DTA, I won't have any assessable income even if a tax-resident.  NOW, if they plan on doing away with those then I would ask nicely for my cost be refunded...then I would reconsider based on how much it might cost me to remain or leave this country that I still love living in.  But until the day comes that they decide to take such drastic action that will in the short run as well as the long run will decrease funds generated by the revenue department instead of increasing them.  Just for this year, when we are shown the tally next year, and they break it down by groups that pay it will be interesting to see what part expats show.  I think a drastic drop but...who knows.

[KhunHeineken]

40 minutes ago, wmlc said:

You are really paranoid. Have you bought your ticket yet?

I'm not paranoid.  Anything is possible here.  Thailand is not a stable country. 

 

I haven't bought my ticket yet.  I have said in other forums / threads over the years that I rent here, I'm single, I only transfer living expenses each month, I pay an agent for extensions because I don't even want to put 800k into Thailand. 

 

I have nothing I couldn't sell at a fire sale (eg. motorbike, home entertainment center) or throw away, donate, or just leave behind, or put in storage, and head straight to the airport, should I ever need or have to.  My losses would be minimal.  This is by design.  

 

I rent a decent condo, and have a good lifestyle here, so my remitted funds means I will be paying some tax.  

 

My plan is to stay and see how this all unfolds, not only for myself, but everyone else, early 2025. 

 

Thailand can, and probably will get me in 2025, just how, and for much much, I will hang around and see. 

 

If the way they implement the system sees me have to pay an amount of tax i am not happy to pay, then my Plan B is 6 months in Vietnam each year. Thailand will only get me once. 

 

I understand many expats do not have the freedoms I have, but once again, it is by design. 

 

In my opinion, all of this will not go away.  Too much money involved.  Just how it effects individuals, and whether or not they can afford an annual tax bill and can  remain living in Thailand, or if heir tax bill will impact their lifestyle, is up to the individual to self asses. 

 

It may be the case that Thailand no longer offers a good value for money lifestyle for many, due to these tax/s. 

Edited June 11 by KhunHeineken

[KhunHeineken]

12 minutes ago, Presnock said:

exactly! that is what it is best if one educates oneself on the current laws.  IF one is paying taxes every year anyway then there should be little change.  A difference could occur if one's income is below the lowest level or if one has income that is counted different in one's resident country as opposed to the that persons tax residency.   Fortuanately several generous individuals have taken their free time to try to educate as many on this forum as they can.  At the same time, "agents" seem to be chomping at the bit so to speak in hopes of being needed when that tax collectors come around.  Good luck to all!

Ok, so some people who stand to lose a considerable amount of money should be "paranoid" and should consider buying a "ticket."  Right? 

[KhunHeineken]

7 minutes ago, Presnock said:

well until the govt cancels the royal decree of the LTR, that tax on remittances is a moot point,  And as I mentioned previously my earnings are solely a US govt pension so unless they also terminate the treaty with the US in the DTA, I won't have any assessable income even if a tax-resident.  NOW, if they plan on doing away with those then I would ask nicely for my cost be refunded...then I would reconsider based on how much it might cost me to remain or leave this country that I still love living in.  But until the day comes that they decide to take such drastic action that will in the short run as well as the long run will decrease funds generated by the revenue department instead of increasing them.  Just for this year, when we are shown the tally next year, and they break it down by groups that pay it will be interesting to see what part expats show.  I think a drastic drop but...who knows.

Once again, I am speaking in general, you are speaking about your personal circumstances. 

 

I have posted my plan in a subsequent post.

 

I am merely stating, not everyone is in your position.  We all have different circumstances.  Of course, we all must do what's financially best for ourselves, or, what we can afford.  These tax/s may end up making the decision for many expats for them. 

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, wmlc said:

I really don't think this will happen the way people are saying.

How do you think it will happen, with a particular focus on possible compliance / enforcement, or do you think it will be repealed and just go away? 

 

I've put forward some ideas how I think the Thai government MAY try to get this to work, efficiently, or otherwise. 

 

Happy to listen to others about what they think will happen.  

Edited June 11 by KhunHeineken

[Joedoebarinio]

That’s let the cat of the bag. Immagration will take this on,