How will it end?

[Woof999]

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Hasn't RT been banned in some western countries? So much for free speech.

 

... and if they are not breaking any laws then I would say that is wrong.

 

5 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Didn't some British politician try to make chanting "from the river to the sea" an arrestable offense?

 

and failed.

[rabas]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Hasn't RT been banned in some western countries? So much for free speech.

 

This is a quantification fallacy, an argument that makes unjustified claims about the scope of something. It's also a form of whataboutisam, perfected in Russian cold war propaganda.

 

"Look, someone somewhere banned something so mass state censorship is OK."

 

Here's what it's quickly becoming under Putin, which you won't criticize. He recently introduced a form you can fill out and get your neighbor locked up for years just for things like singing Ukraine supportive songs? No trial. OK, back to your evil USA. 

 

 

 

 

 

[BobBKK]

11 minutes ago, rabas said:

 

This is a quantification fallacy, an argument that makes unjustified claims about the scope of something. It's also a form of whataboutisam, perfected in Russian cold war propaganda.

 

"Look, someone somewhere banned something so mass state censorship is OK."

 

Here's what it's quickly becoming under Putin, which you won't criticize. He recently introduced a form you can fill out and get your neighbor locked up for years just for things like singing Ukraine supportive songs? No trial. OK, back to your evil USA. 

 

 

 

 

 

 He is relatively young, but he supported the Legion of Free Russia, which fights alongside Ukrainian forces. This is illegal in Russia, as is even speaking Russian in Ukraine. Hopefully, once the war is won, he will get leniency - thousands have been locked up in Ukraine, and churches have been stormed and shut.

Democracies do not ban opposition parties. The fact that so many such parties ever existed says something about the level of opposition faced by the Ukrainian nationalist government that came to power after the 2014 revolution. Then in May of 2022, the Ukrainian parliament passed a law formally banning all these parties.

https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-sure-doesnt-look-like-democracy-anymore-opinion-1844799

[Woof999]

4 hours ago, BobBKK said:

He is relatively young, but he supported the Legion of Free Russia

 

Do you have any links to articles covering his trial?

 

4 hours ago, BobBKK said:

thousands have been locked up in Ukraine

 

Thousands of 15 year olds? Any citations?

 

4 hours ago, BobBKK said:

Democracies do not ban opposition parties

 

Democracies typically have at least two parties that have some semblance of a chance of winning a majority. When was the last time (any time) this was the case in Russia?

[ChicagoExpat]

On 6/28/2024 at 3:42 PM, BobBKK said:

They indeed behaved the same in Donbas for many years - it was a form of genocide, of course - shutting the language down, burning books and lawless killings.

That is nonsense, and you know it.

[ChicagoExpat]

On 6/29/2024 at 9:23 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Was it not yourself that posted

 

 

I was quoting you -- YOU were "not aware that you were called out"/  🤔

[ChicagoExpat]

On 6/29/2024 at 9:19 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

It was an entirely expected result of Ukraine's intent to join NATO. I don't condemn expected events, else I'd be outside shaking my fist at the sky for raining.

If I'm going to condemn anything, it's the neocons that IMO manufactured this war.

And the invasion of Poland, taking of the Sudentenland, Operation Barbarossa, etc were entirely expected results of having a murderous dictator as a neighbor.  So is the invasion of Ukraine.  When unhinged autocrats are grabbing the land of their neighbors, and they have both already done so to you and promise to come and finish the job, you look for help.  That's what free nations do.  If Putin and friends (i.e. you) don't want their neighbors joing NATO -- THEN DON'T GIVE THEM A REASON TO.

 

Kremlin logic is no logic at all.  You're not a dumb guy, @thaibeachlovers.  How you swallow this BS is just... astonishing.  Right.  It's THE NECONS that forced poor Vladimir to cause the deaths of hundreds of thousands (thus far).  He just couldn't help himself.  He was left with no other options.

[ChicagoExpat]

17 hours ago, BobBKK said:

Democracies do not ban opposition parties.

"Democracy is important to me, but I support an alliance of the most undemocratic nations on earth and the destructions of nations that try to move toward democracy."

[ChicagoExpat]

17 hours ago, rabas said:

 

This is a quantification fallacy, an argument that makes unjustified claims about the scope of something. It's also a form of whataboutisam, perfected in Russian cold war propaganda.

 

"Look, someone somewhere banned something so mass state censorship is OK."

 

Here's what it's quickly becoming under Putin, which you won't criticize. He recently introduced a form you can fill out and get your neighbor locked up for years just for things like singing Ukraine supportive songs? No trial. OK, back to your evil USA. 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's a case that's beyond belief, but happened while I was living in Russia -- several minors were playing Minecraft and built, and then destroyed, a replica of FSB headquarters.  THEY WERE SENTENCED TO HARD TIME IN PRISON FOR THIS TERRORISM.

[ChicagoExpat]

23 hours ago, Woof999 said:

"All those deaths for nothing". So the wife beater was right. It WAS the wife's fault that her husband had to keep hitting her. If only she'd do what she was told he would stop.

"I love you so much I'll kill you if you leave me for another man."  -- Russia to Ukraine

[ChicagoExpat]

On 6/29/2024 at 9:51 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

I never realised till I came on this thread how many western people believe in the Russians bad bad boogyman, western allied good good saviours of humanity.

 

If Russia didn't exist the neocons would have to invent one to scare the children with.

You "never realized" that people might fear and hate a country that does what Russia does?

 

"Neocons"  >>DRINK<<

[connda]

This is germane to the conflict and can explain why the conflict grinds on without end although there seems to be some cracks emerging within the Ukraine population, especially among the youth, that suggests that Ukrainians are open to negotiations. 

https://carnegieendowment.org/research/2024/06/ukraine-public-opinion-russia-war?lang=en
 

War and Peace: Ukraine’s Impossible Choices

Two years into Russia’s full-scale war against Ukraine, a Carnegie-sponsored opinion poll found that Ukrainians still believe strongly in their national cause, even as doubts creep in about the path to victory.

 

Analysis:
https://www.thenation.com/article/world/ukraine-russia-zelensky-war-peace-diplomacy/?mc_cid=343aeaa34a

Note for mods: This is not The Nation Thailand (nationthailand(dot)com)
"The narrative of totally unified Ukrainian opinion is premised on polls from the earliest days of the war showing nearly unanimous Ukrainian support for the government and its handling of the war effort. This seeming consensus has steadily eroded since the peak of Ukraine’s battlefield successes in 2022, when 70 percent of survey respondents affirmed that Ukraine “should continue fighting until it wins the war.” That number dropped to 60 percent in the summer of 2023, according to Gallup. Polling since the failure of Ukraine’s 2023 offensive shows that 44 percent of Ukrainians favor entering into talks with Russia and only 48 percent—still a plurality but, notably, no longer a majority—believe Ukraine should fight on."

Edited July 1 by connda

[ChicagoExpat]

On 6/30/2024 at 10:12 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Hasn't RT been banned in some western countries? So much for free speech.

 

Didn't some British politician try to make chanting "from the river to the sea" an arrestable offense?

"Free speech is important to me, and I support a country that literally allows no free speech whatsoever."

[BobBKK]

5 hours ago, ChicagoExpat said:

"I love you so much I'll kill you if you leave me for another man."  -- Russia to Ukraine

 Ukraine to Russia - "Don't mind us beating up your family and kids - get used to it"

[BobBKK]

1 hour ago, ChicagoExpat said:

"Free speech is important to me, and I support a country that literally allows no free speech whatsoever."

 USA again? 

[BobBKK]

6 hours ago, ChicagoExpat said:

That is nonsense, and you know it.

 All true, and you know it - it will be over by mid-2025.

My prediction is Donbas will be a 'special zone' with no NATO for Ukraine, and Zelensky will retire with his millions. Game Over.
 

 

[MicroB]

On 6/29/2024 at 9:19 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

It was an entirely expected result of Ukraine's intent to join NATO. I don't condemn expected events, else I'd be outside shaking my fist at the sky for raining.

If I'm going to condemn anything, it's the neocons that IMO manufactured this war.

 

Finland has joined NATO. What was this reaction to an apparent miitary threat to their borders? They withdrew units from along the Finnish border to throw into the meat grinder in occupied Ukraine. ie. Putin knows NATO is not a threat to him. Its a convenient cover for his other objectives which rest on internal politics and demographics.

 

Since you decline to blame Dugin in this, I assume you are, if not an acolyte of his, at least broadly supportive of his views.

 

[ChicagoExpat]

16 hours ago, BobBKK said:

 Ukraine to Russia - "Don't mind us beating up your family and kids - get used to it"

The analogy doesn't work and you know it.  Russia invaded Ukraine, not the other way around.

[ChicagoExpat]

15 hours ago, BobBKK said:

 All true, and you know it - it will be over by mid-2025.

My prediction is Donbas will be a 'special zone' with no NATO for Ukraine, and Zelensky will retire with his millions. Game Over.
 

 

There is a very good chance Russia could come out of this with much of what it wanted in the first place.  I've never been one of those people who has said Ukraine will certainly win.  Evil does sometimes win, though in the end, as it's simply the occupation of land by a foreign army, when Russia goes through another existential crisis (as such a rotten government and society surely will do), Ukraine will take its freedom back.  Happened in the breakup of the Soviet Union, it'll happen again.

 

That said, though, I fervently hope Russia is bled dry and loses, and Putin meets the same end as Mussolini, or Hitler, or Qaddafi, or Hussein.  If ever a man deserved it, it's him.

[ChicagoExpat]

17 hours ago, BobBKK said:

 USA again? 

So, Bob, I hurt your feelings by calling you out and you had my comment removed.  For someone advocating for the worst regimes on the planet, you sure are thin-skinned and don't like to have the obvious shortcomings of your position exposed.

 

I'll repeat it for your edification.  Until you have the courage of your convictions, and actually forego all that USA has provided for you in your lifetime -- a world order that for all its shortcomings has provided more prosperity and freedom in the past 70 years than combined previous millennia -- and go live in Russia, China, or Iran, you've just a hypocrite.

 

Ironic that you were literally fake advocating for free speech in your quoted comment but you're the fastest to cry about a comment that hurts your feelings.  It's really important when you're advocating for the destruction of a nation, and the deaths of hundreds of thousands, to do so without being offended.

 

Bob, in a microcosm, illustrates the core issue here -- there are some here that advocate for repression, death, and destruction, doing so safely from a lifetime of living in the countries that oppose these things.  For all of their many shortcomings, Western countries are the only places any of us choose to live in.

[BobBKK]

7 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

So, Bob, I hurt your feelings by calling you out and you had my comment removed.  For someone advocating for the worst regimes on the planet, you sure are thin-skinned and don't like to have the obvious shortcomings of your position exposed.

 

I'll repeat it for your edification.  Until you have the courage of your convictions, and actually forego all that USA has provided for you in your lifetime -- a world order that for all its shortcomings has provided more prosperity and freedom in the past 70 years than combined previous millennia -- and go live in Russia, China, or Iran, you've just a hypocrite.

 

Ironic that you were literally fake advocating for free speech in your quoted comment but you're the fastest to cry about a comment that hurts your feelings.  It's really important when you're advocating for the destruction of a nation, and the deaths of hundreds of thousands, to do so without being offended.

 

Bob, in a microcosm, illustrates the core issue here -- there are some here that advocate for repression, death, and destruction, doing so safely from a lifetime of living in the countries that oppose these things.  For all of their many shortcomings, Western countries are the only places any of us choose to live in.

 Ad hominem again - I don't live in the USA, so your advocacy is misled. I advocate for peace, not destruction. Grow up.

[ChicagoExpat]

3 minutes ago, BobBKK said:

 Ad hominem again - I don't live in the USA, so your advocacy is misled. I advocate for peace, not destruction. Grow up.

You advocate for peace in its most hypocritical form -- the peace of the grave.

 

Telling me to "grow up"?  That's pretty ad hominem, Bob.  I ought to report you for that.

 

If you can't take the blowback, don't shill for fascists and murderers.  Your feelings will be less hurt then.

[BobBKK]

2 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

You advocate for peace in its most hypocritical form -- the peace of the grave.

 

Telling me to "grow up"?  That's pretty ad hominem, Bob.  I ought to report you for that.

 

If you can't take the blowback, don't shill for fascists and murderers.  Your feelings will be less hurt then.

I can assure you your immature attacks do not disturb my feelings at all.  Let's debate respectfully and politely, which is something you cannot do. I do not support war in any form or the expansion of USA interests by interfering with other countries constantly - not just Ukraine. I do not support any Russian takeover of Ukraine or anywhere else.

Please STOP the insults, ad hominem attacks, trolling, flaming and baiting. Thank you.

[owl sees all]

The Don will sort it within 48 hours of getting back in as POTUS.

 

What the Ukrainians have to hope for, is that the Ruskies don't take the whole coast before the election in November.

[ChicagoExpat]

1 hour ago, owl sees all said:

The Don will sort it within 48 hours of getting back in as POTUS.

 

What the Ukrainians have to hope for, is that the Ruskies don't take the whole coast before the election in November.

Moving at a couple of miles per month, that seems to be a remote danger indeed.  The real problem is after inauguration, when the Don will give Russia the gift they want most at the moment -- allowing them to do what they want in Ukraine.

[ChicagoExpat]

1 hour ago, BobBKK said:

I can assure you your immature attacks do not disturb my feelings at all.  Let's debate respectfully and politely, which is something you cannot do. I do not support war in any form or the expansion of USA interests by interfering with other countries constantly - not just Ukraine. I do not support any Russian takeover of Ukraine or anywhere else.

Please STOP the insults, ad hominem attacks, trolling, flaming and baiting. Thank you.

It really is weird that every day you advocate for murder and mayhem, and are so thin-skinned.  Every single day you advocate for Russia.  Every day.  Even by defining Russia's brutal invasion as "expansion of USA interests" -- a lie as bold as it is transparently false -- you are shilling for Russia.

 

And Bob, every single day I'm going to point out the immorality of your stance, and your hypocrisy.  Every day.  You can't have it both ways.

[BobBKK]

47 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

Moving at a couple of miles per month, that seems to be a remote danger indeed.  The real problem is after inauguration, when the Don will give Russia the gift they want most at the moment -- allowing them to do what they want in Ukraine.

 He advocates for peace and not throwing your country's money away for nothing. In this respect Trump makes sense and I hope he wins over senile Biden.

[BobBKK]

40 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

It really is weird that every day you advocate for murder and mayhem, and are so thin-skinned.  Every single day you advocate for Russia.  Every day.  Even by defining Russia's brutal invasion as "expansion of USA interests" -- a lie as bold as it is transparently false -- you are shilling for Russia.

 

And Bob, every single day I'm going to point out the immorality of your stance, and your hypocrisy.  Every day.  You can't have it both ways.

Stalking is against forum rules. Ukraine is a proxy war for the USA and you know it.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 6/30/2024 at 7:57 PM, rabas said:

 

This is a quantification fallacy, an argument that makes unjustified claims about the scope of something. It's also a form of whataboutisam, perfected in Russian cold war propaganda.

 

"Look, someone somewhere banned something so mass state censorship is OK."

 

Here's what it's quickly becoming under Putin, which you won't criticize. He recently introduced a form you can fill out and get your neighbor locked up for years just for things like singing Ukraine supportive songs? No trial. OK, back to your evil USA. 

 

 

 

 

 

If I thought Russia was some Utopian paradise on earth I'd be offended by that, but as I don't I'm not.

 

What makes me chuckle to myself are those that apparently think their corner of the planet is "good" when it's so obvious to me that no country is perfect.

 

I'm mindful of a certain Bible verse: Matthew 7

 

`Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 hours ago, ChicagoExpat said:

For all of their many shortcomings, Western countries are the only places any of us choose to live in.

Western countries are the only places any of us choose to live in.

 

Do try and get it right. Some of us ( quite a lot actually ) choose to live in Thailand, and the last time I looked it's not a western country. Not only that, it doesn't support the proxy war in Ukraine.