Gays Who Deny Their Sexuality Are Not Cowards. Discuss?

[Tyke]

This should put the rooks up the queens, as the king said to the bishop!

This topic arose from another discussion in this forum, but is so fundamental to gay life, especially in Asia, that I am sure it will lead to an interesting debate. I hope to hold a poll for this topic in a couple of weeks or so depending on how the discussion goes, so I will keep you posted about that.

Edited August 1, 2007 by endure
Title made less provocative

[PeaceBlondie]

Let me give this a couple of hours of thought, with help from fellow moderators, but we recently closed other topics which met forum rule #1 about flaming, something to the effect that topics which are insulting, or meant to inflame other members, aren't allowed.

So I'll start by saying that no, closeted gays are not cowards. hel_l, if you lived in Texas in the 1990's, it was nearly suicidal to admit you were gay, and criminal to admit you had engaged in intercourse with another man. I knew a public schoolteacher who lost his career because he demonstrated for gay rights in Houston. No, they weren't cowards to stay in the closet.

Consider the plot of Brokeback Mountain, in which one of the gay lovers tries to stay in the closet and gets killed anyway.

[endure]

Consider that pre-1967 in the the UK the maximum sentence for sodomy was life imprisonment.

[canadiangirl]

No, they weren't cowards to stay in the closet.

Consider the plot of Brokeback Mountain, in which one of the gay lovers tries to stay in the closet and gets killed anyway.

OMG Peace Blondie! I never finished watching Brokeback Mountain and now it's ruined forever! He dies? Which one? The hot one with long eyelashes, or the butch one?

Seriously, I agree that not all people in the closet are cowards. One of my uni friends is the child of conservative Muslim immigrants -- he hasn't told them.

[ProThaiExpat]

Like Peaceblondie, I was ready to defend closet cases, until I read the full topic heading which is well worded when read in its entirety.

Yes some people may think closet cases are cowards, but then "some people" may think any small group of other people are cowards due to their lack of understanding of the situations faced by these "cowards"

Sexuality and the way you choose to express it and live with whatever you choose is not by definition "cowardice" but merely a choice that some might not agree with.

Acting in accordance with fearful thoughts in the face of threat or danger would be my attempt to describe cowardice.

Properly presented, there is only one option, fight or retreat. A gay in the closet who chooses to remain there by choice is not a coward. On the other hand, I suppose, you could argue that staying in the closet out of fear may be so classified.

Going further, society brands its "cowards" through societies mores. Since society in many countries treats homosexuality as wrong, against nature and reprehensible, that society would certainly not judge the closet case as a coward.

To the point, cowardice is a societal defined moral standard and has no place in the complex area of sexual orientation and ones willingness to act out or not on it, depending on your informed choice.

[PeaceBlondie]

Tyke and I have reached an agreement on the title, which originally was too provocative and then was too wishy washy. Sorry to change titles twice in those few hours, and sorry to have spoiled (in part) the plot of a movie which is now a few years old.

Some people might be branded sexually as 'cowards' if they refuse to address their own mixed feelings of sexuality. Some gay bashers are truly cowards! The bravest people I've known are pacifists, and none of them were cowards, including the gay pacifists.

I've written novels in which the gay basher gets killed by a straight man before he can kill the gays, who are incredibly brave pacifists....

[Tyke]

Hi,

I should really have titled this 'old movie' as ¨Gays have an obligation to admit their sexuality¨ because I doubt many gays would agree with closet gays being cowards. Alas, never mind.

In my opinion, sexuality is so personal that it is only the individual gay person's 'property' and so he/she is entitled to do most things to protect it from anyone else. It is not necessarily about fear of physical punishment, not about a pacifist approach. It's just more personal than, say, one's HIV status, medical records or DNA profile etc.

I might also add that, despite what many gay activists feel, gayness or even general sexuality. is not necessarily the greatest driving force in everyone, nor does it have to be his/her overriding concern in life. For example, in asian societies, their family, job and friends are often much more important than is their need to express their sexuality. If 'coming out' into the open means these other more important facets of their life are threatened, albeit unfairly, then i can well understand that they would feel the need to deny their sexuality and perhaps be tempted to marry a woman in later life to satisfy their parents wishes.

This approach doe not further the cause of gay rights, of course, as activists may desire, but if a gay prefers to accept the negative consequences to him/herself then its entirely up to them as they have no obligation to other gays at all. Not an ideal situation, I know. but in some cases better than 'coming out'. The closetted gay already knows the risks of 'coming out', so I think the 'out' gay has a role to play in explaining the possible approaches to and advantages of 'coming out', but never criticism of the closetting.

[midas]

This subject is fascinating ! It doesn't seem to be an issue that often

with the Thai's and even in places like Issan I'm surprised that in such a

rural environment it seems to be accepted most of the time.

I have traveled extensively through Eastern Europe

and Russia and it's interesting to see how their attitudes to the subject have

gradually changed in that part of the world considering that only 20 years ago

gays who were caught out could were effectively tortured.

A Romanian friend of mine in Bucharest told me the old Securitate used to

take gays for treatment including electric shock therapy, drugs and even castration

The country in that region that has made the most remarkable transition

where many gays seem less conscious to admit their sexuality

is Russia because they seem to have less " hang ups ". Moscow and St. Petersburg

now have a wide range of gay venues and it's quite an exciting and vibrant scene

But in many of the adjoining countries such as Poland, Hunagary,Czechoslovakia

etc - the Roman Catholic Church may have persuaded many

to stay in the closet. May be the fact that after communism ended in Russia there was a

vacuum in which it was easier for homosexuality to flourish...................

[jumnien]

Whether someone is heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, obsessive masturbator, celibate or none of the above is not necessarily anyone else's business and certainly not everyone else's business. Those who have the decency to spare the entire the details of their fantasies and private behaviour should be respected.

[domreknaw]

I am new here and worry that I find Thai boy's bums attractive. Is this normal? I never thought this in europe living

[endure]

It's perfectly normal if you're gay. Whether YOU are gay is something that only you can decide.

[domreknaw]

It's perfectly normal if you're gay. Whether YOU are gay is something that only you can decide.

I come from Italy so not easy but look for somthing I like. I see small bum sometimes girl but sometimes boy and very nice

[Tyke]

Domreknaw,

You probably have what is called ‘Holitis’. There are different types of this condition – ‘Spatial holitis’, which means the positon/location is irrelevant, and ‘Temporal holitis’, which means you can go at it all times of the day and night. Strange thing is, my friend suffered from a rare form of it called ‘Pan holitis’, which is a combination of both the spatial and temporal forms and he was Italian too. He had to go back to Imola to take the waters when the variety of crevices ran out in Thailand.

[Buki]

i think for me, it all boils down to circumstances and choice.

[jdinasia]

closeted to whom is the only relevant question ... and the drama about being gay in Texas ... puh-lease ....

I came out in H.S. (10th grade) all the way ... and was a founding member and 3 time president of the Dallas Gay Alliance young adults group

(talk about ancient history!)

The fact is that if you actively LIE about your sexuality you are a coward on some level

[andreaZ]

The whole issue of public outing really bothers me.

I don’t broadcast my somewhat mixed sexuality to all and sundry, just like I don’t broadcast other personal details. For those who choose to assume the whole world is straight, other than gays and bisexuals who take the trouble to identify themselves as such, the way I see it that’s their problem, not mine. I don’t make assumptions about other’s sexuality and, frankly, it’s none of my business, unless maybe I’m planning on doing them LOL

As for being a coward, maybe I am, maybe not. And to those who take that moral high ground and insist all “closet cases” like me are cowards, would you physically intervene if you saw someone getting gay bashed? I have done that on two occasions, I’m proud to say, and I’m just a girly. Won’t go into details as I’m not sure the statutory time limitations are up on the last incident and I’d probably be the one charged with assault as the person I “sorted” was “only beating up a homo”.

I think I’d better get back to the ladies forum before I get myself in trouble

PS Any requests for my bodyguard services (from closet queens or otherwise) will be considered, but please bear in mind I’m not cheap. I swing a mean Gucci handbag!

[peter991]

This reminds me of Real Estate commercials: Location! Location! Location!

Like JD, I 'came out' to everybody in 1966 when I was in Year 8 (13yo). This was despite the fact homosexuality was not legalised until the early 1980s. I was still open about my sexuality when I started work as a 17yo. When I started to question my sexuality in the late 1980s, I found a girl-friend and was married for 10 years and we had 2 children.

When the marriage finished, I retreated back into my shell (sexually) for a number of years - before I convinced myself I am gay. I have worked in several remote regions in Australia, where I had to hide my sexuality - even now I do no 'broadcast' the fact I am gay - I treat this on a need to know basis.

Thank heavens for Thailand - where I can walk hand-in-hand with my Thai BF.

As a side note: It is common for Thai guys to walk hand-in-hand too - but 99% of the guys who do this are not gay. It is also common for two Thai guys to share a double bed if they rent a room together. They are not gay - it is purely a living arrangement.

Peter

[endure]

As a side note: It is common for Thai guys to walk hand-in-hand too - but 99% of the guys who do this are not gay.

It's common for large chunks of the male world to walk hand in hand. It denotes nothing more than friendship. It's only the western religious obsession with (homo) sexuality that denigrates simple human gestures of affection.

[farang prince]

It's an individual's prerogative. The last thing this world needs is gays who are judgmental about other gays. We all have enough problems in life...pointing fingers at each other is ridiculous.

[thaicurious]

i'm not sure i understand the question. to whom does the denial refer? if to society at large, then i'd think it would be a matter of time, place & circumstance. and all that could be a matter of cowardice or self-preservation. but if the reference is to one's self, then i think it is less cowardly & more just sad.

[PeaceBlondie]

I spent an hour at a late lunch this week, with two farang men I'd never seen before, who appear to say they're straight, straight. I never mentioned that I was gay, or a ThaiVisa moderator, or an English teacher, or Peter Pan. I may have mentioned my kids, motorcycle, countries I had lived in, swimming, and the baht exchange ratio. Nobody mentioned the War of the Roses or Persian antiquities. One guy felt compelled to explain that Jomtien is now filled with homos who fornicate in broad daylight.....excuse me?

[chinthee]

I love all this righteousness about proudly trumpeting one's sexuality and avoidance of denial. How about the bi person? Should he or she loudly sing from the highest mountain about that? That would result in being shunned by most straights and gays as far as I know. Is that cowardice not to proclaim you're bi?

How about those on even more sliding scales of sexuality? How about the dabblers, on both sides? What should they do?

I don't think it's anybody's business to call anyone else a coward for not openly proclaiming their sexuality, no matter what it is. This is just bigoted thinking in a reverse form.

[Scott]

Sorry, but anyone who can "take it like a man" isn't a coward in my book!

At any rate the U.S. Military has the don't ask, don't tell policy. I would hardly consider the gays in the military to be cowards.....although I am a little suspicious of the ones who might be afraid of knowing!

[pukkagent]

I think everyone has a right to privacy, and being gay isn't a public thing, but neither is being straight. I wouldn't come out and say I was heterosexual to anyone, because it's immaterial. I personally came out when I was 12, but it was a very difficult time, and I wouldn't wish the kind of aggravation I experienced by my family and peers. I was a social outcast until I left home at 16 to live in London. Sometimes being out isn't possible, and even though I wouldn't change anything I've ever done (it's made me who I am today!) I have learned that coming out in a very homophobic atmosphere can have adverse affects not only on you, but those who are closest to you in a close-knit community.

[lazeeboy]

I think everyone has a right to privacy, and being gay isn't a public thing, but neither is being straight. I wouldn't come out and say I was heterosexual to anyone, because it's immaterial. I personally came out when I was 12, but it was a very difficult time, and I wouldn't wish the kind of aggravation I experienced by my family and peers. I was a social outcast until I left home at 16 to live in London. Sometimes being out isn't possible, and even though I wouldn't change anything I've ever done (it's made me who I am today!) I have learned that coming out in a very homophobic atmosphere can have adverse affects not only on you, but those who are closest to you in a close-knit community.

why should gays go around telling everyone 'IM GAY" straight people dont say in conversation im staight ,its intirely up to the person who and who he does'nt tell ,this is the 21st century not the 19th ...........

[Naam]

I love all this righteousness about proudly trumpeting one's sexuality and avoidance of denial. How about the bi person? Should he or she loudly sing from the highest mountain about that?

right you are! what about me and my funny feelings when i look over the fence and see my neighbour's goat? why should i tell anybody about it?

[dukkha]

We live in a heterosexual world, straight people do not have to declare their sexuality...that is why most countries have a Gay Pride Day/March...all the world is queer save thee and me and sometimes I have my doubts about thee..apologies to the original speaker and have taken it quite out of context...however I have always subscribed to the notion that we are all polymorphous in a sexual context

I think everyone has a right to privacy, and being gay isn't a public thing, but neither is being straight. I wouldn't come out and say I was heterosexual to anyone, because it's immaterial. I personally came out when I was 12, but it was a very difficult time, and I wouldn't wish the kind of aggravation I experienced by my family and peers. I was a social outcast until I left home at 16 to live in London. Sometimes being out isn't possible, and even though I wouldn't change anything I've ever done (it's made me who I am today!) I have learned that coming out in a very homophobic atmosphere can have adverse affects not only on you, but those who are closest to you in a close-knit community.

why should gays go around telling everyone 'IM GAY" straight people dont say in conversation im staight ,its intirely up to the person who and who he does'nt tell ,this is the 21st century not the 19th ...........

[PeaceBlondie]

why should gays go around telling everyone 'IM GAY" straight people dont say in conversation im staight ,its intirely up to the person who and who he does'nt tell ,this is the 21st century not the 19th ...........

Most of us gays don't mention our boyfriend, our male lover. I'll bet that in many conversations, you and most other straight men say terms like "my wife," or "my girlfriend," and maybe even "Hey guys, look at those hooters/rack/tits/breasts/headlights/etc. on that girl over there!! Wouldn't it feel good to wrap your legs around that!!"

[lazeeboy]

why should gays go around telling everyone 'IM GAY" straight people dont say in conversation im staight ,its intirely up to the person who and who he does'nt tell ,this is the 21st century not the 19th ...........

Most of us gays don't mention our boyfriend, our male lover. I'll bet that in many conversations, you and most other straight men say terms like "my wife," or "my girlfriend," and maybe even "Hey guys, look at those hooters/rack/tits/breasts/headlights/etc. on that girl over there!! Wouldn't it feel good to wrap your legs around that!!"

why do you assume im straight

[farang prince]

why should gays go around telling everyone 'IM GAY" straight people dont say in conversation im staight ,its intirely up to the person who and who he does'nt tell ,this is the 21st century not the 19th ...........

Most of us gays don't mention our boyfriend, our male lover. I'll bet that in many conversations, you and most other straight men say terms like "my wife," or "my girlfriend," and maybe even "Hey guys, look at those hooters/rack/tits/breasts/headlights/etc. on that girl over there!! Wouldn't it feel good to wrap your legs around that!!"

PB, that's the joy of having a ladyboy as your lover. You can say "Look at those hooters" and you will be referring to your lover!!!! Just kidding. I've never said anything like what you were quoting, even when I was straight.