Paying For Personel Services

[RamdomChances]

Ok I've seen a lot of posts from people saying how bad it is to pay for sex, or YUK YUK sort of thing but.....

If someone goes and has a massage, just a normal massage, thai, oil, and there is nothing physicaly wrong with that person i.e they are just going for pleasure.

Is that wrong? As you would be paying someone to provide a phyisical service for pleasure.

Take it one step further, the massuse offers a little extra, maybe using hand or mouth. Is this then wrong cos you are still just paying someone to provide a physical service for pleasure.

Take it further still (use own imagination) Is this then wrong cos you are still just paying someone to provide a physical service for pleasure.

Do you think western religious belifs influance your views, i.e do you think its a sin.

Are westerners exploiting, if no one wanted a massage there would be no demand.

Back home it was quite comman for women to go and get their hair done, have a facial, just for the pleasure of it, where they exploiting the "lower classes"

I know people have strong views on this but just wondering where people draw the line and why.

I know this is a bit much to ask, but lets try and keep it polite and on topic

This is'nt about bar girls, but more about your perseptions of right and wrong and how they where formulated .

[rainman]

Is it right or wrong? Depends on the person and we're on the edge of an endless debate again. I'll take the thai response to this - "up to you".

[anono555]

if girls WANT to work in bars, massage parlours or as escorts then good luck to them, there is nothing wrong with it (a lot of people on this forum seem to be a bit hung up about other people paying for sex), not sure why 'cos it's none of their ###### business anyway... too many people post on here trying to judge everybody else and trying to look down on these women just because they are 'bar girls'... get a life for ######s sake

the only time it does become wrong is when people are FORCED into working either through extreme poverty, violence, or getting them strung out and addicted to drugs which is happening in every country in the world and not just Thailand

[Stocky]

I was going to say something, but I can't be bothered, as Rainman so eloquently put it "up to you".

[RamdomChances]

I've got nothing against it, as far as i'm concerened you would just be paying for a service, same as a massage, hair cut whatever.

What I was trying to ask is if people think it is wrong, Why? or why do they think it's not wrong.

If you read the post, you would see that I was'nt actually asking for advice on whether it is right or wrong, and did not mention bar girls, and am definatly not trying to judge anybody.

Mabye I did'nt word it clearly, mabye you did'nt bother reading it, who knows, who cares.

[konangrit]

I'm in the "up to you" camp.

[Stocky]

I've got nothing against it, as far as i'm concerened you would just be paying for a service, same as a massage, hair cut whatever.

What I was trying to ask is if people think it is wrong, Why? or why do they think it's not wrong.

If you read the post, you would see that I was'nt actually asking for advice on whether it is right or wrong, and did not mention bar girls, and am definatly not trying to judge anybody.

Mabye I did'nt word it clearly, mabye you did'nt bother reading it, who knows, who cares.

Sorry, but the topic header morally/ethically wrong? tends to put me off.

I wouldn't presume to judge anybody else's morals/ethics, I might have an opinion but it's mine.

Personally I have no problems with either the ethics or morals of 'paying for a service', on the proviso that both parties are happy with the deal.

But as I say that is purely my opinion

[Stocky]

Having just looked at my fuller reply and realise I should have left it at "up to you" same same

[anono555]

my post wasn't trying to have a pop at you by the way 'Ramdom chances'...

sorry if you got the wrong end of the stick there, my comments weren't aimed at you

[stroll]

the only time it does become wrong is when people are FORCED into working either through extreme poverty, violence, or getting them strung out and addicted to drugs which is happening in every country in the world and not just Thailand

This is what I would say as well. Unfortunately, it isn't this clear cut. How 'poor' does one need to be to fall into the 'forced by poverty' category?

Also, how would you know whether someone has chosen to work in a bar? They are not going to tell you: "I find you really disgusting and wouldn't consent to being abused in this way if I didn't need the money." In brothels where some women are kept against their will, they will not tell you:"I only have sex with you because otherwise I will be beaten and won't have food for 2 days."

I must say, I made some mistakes concerning this in the past, when I wasnt very thoughtful nor experienced in that respect.

The more I am reflecting on these issues, the less I feel inclined to get involved in prostitution. (Besides I am in a longterm relationship)

Where exactly the line is, as has been said, up to you. On the other hand, sometimes it is so obvious when people go on about 'consenting adults' and 'not your business', that they are taking advantage of others weakness. I cannot help myself but object and post my comments, and I gladly accept being called 'screwed-up' and 'holier than thou' in return.

[andyinkat]

This might be a tired old topic, but if anyone is interested in a new dimension to it I'd like to make a serious observation.

The OP asks:

Do you think western religious belifs influance your views, i.e do you think its a sin.

I'd like to comment on this - not by making any judgements but just adding some information.

Societies based on Christian ethics (though not necessarily primarily 'Christian' any more) such as in the West and societies based on Buddhist ethics (such as Thailand) have - broadly speaking, the same assumptions about what is ethically right and wrong. The Ten Commandments and the Buddhist Five Precepts share - on a superficial level - views about the wrongness of killing, lying, stealing and sexual misconduct.

But here is a difference - in the West there seems to be a hypocricy in certain sections of society such as the media. There is a slackness or tolerance of lying (or being 'economical with the truth') or stealing (businessmen and their 'creative acountancy'), but the tabloids get hysterical over any sexual indiscretion.

In Thailand there is a general acceptance that working in the sex industry or participating as a client is 'wrong' but it is not on a separate level to 'wrong' business practices. Cheating a business client, evading taxes and offering sexual services fo rmoney are on an equal par.

Anyway that's my tuppence worth of contribution for anyone who cares.

[stroll]

Sorry again, Andy, you got some flag from me before when I didn't know where you were coming from.

[RamdomChances]

This is what I would say as well. Unfortunately, it isn't this clear cut. How 'poor' does one need to be to fall into the 'forced by poverty' category?

Also, how would you know whether someone has chosen to work in a bar? They are not going to tell you: "I find you really disgusting and wouldn't consent to being abused in this way if I didn't need the money." In brothels where some women are kept against their will, they will not tell you:"I only have sex with you because otherwise I will be beaten and won't have food for 2 days."

I agree with stroll on this, I'm also in a long term relationship (married), and dont really bother, before I was married I used to come here about every 3 months and really enjoyed the bar scene. I was single not to old mid 30's and was having fun, tried to treat people like people, and got the same back.

I do feel though that if you take the sex out of the equation, any service industry would be the same, people work cos they have'nt got any money/want to better themselfs. Usually in poor conditions and for cr@p money

Mabye the boy who puts the petrol in your car finds it demeaning, is abused by his boss, but puts up with it cos he needs the money, whats the differance. You see many examples of Burmese workers being kept in virtual slavery.

People should not be forced or coersed into doing any job, its not just about sex.

[The Gentleman Scamp]

2 words - consenting adults.

I don't think it's wrong at all - PEOPLE ARE WRONG!

[Davidcharles]

if girls WANT to work in bars, massage parlours or as escorts then good luck to them, there is nothing wrong with it (a lot of people on this forum seem to be a bit hung up about other people paying for sex), not sure why 'cos it's none of their ###### business anyway... too many people post on here trying to judge everybody else and trying to look down on these women just because they are 'bar girls'... get a life for ######s sake

the only time it does become wrong is when people are FORCED into working either through extreme poverty, violence, or getting them strung out and addicted to drugs which is happening in every country in the world and not just Thailand

Here! Here! absolutely......

[sonthaya]

2 words - consenting adults.

I don't think it's wrong at all - PEOPLE ARE WRONG!

And how right you are.

[stroll]

2 words - consenting adults.

I don't think it's wrong at all - PEOPLE ARE WRONG!

You will find lawmakers and judges have quite peculiar ideas as to what qualifies as 'consent' and who as 'adult', surprisingly different from how some people like to understand these terms.

[tuky]

again...up2u

I would imagine a lot of woman and their families have done well out of the industry, including a lot of wives of the men on this forum.

It works for a lot of people, let it be I say to those not interested or have religious complaints. The lives the industry has improved speak for itself.

JMHO

[stroll]

The lives the industry has ruined speak for itself as well, specially in the branches where parents consent to their children being pimped and adolescents make the choice to be trafficked overseas with false documents.

Some not so young sex workers don't seem to be doing too well, either. Psychological disorders, work related physical ailments, drug addiction are a few pointers here. It is a hazardous occupation.

Anyway, I've had my say in this thread and my position should be clear.

Edited July 14, 2004 by stroll

[Rascal]

Definitely agree with Scamp: Consenting adults is the key here. A lot of men (mostly foreigners on vacation here) are under the misguided conception that prostitution in Thailand runs under the same system as prostitution in the US or UK where there is a pimp lurking behind every corner to beat the girls to pieces if they don't bring them the money. Believe me, in 99% of the women, that is NOT the case in Thailand. Prostituting in Thailand is a choice for them, not forced slavery. There are other jobs available to them, but what future does 4,000 B per month hold with no chance of advancement?

Scary venereal diseases aside, I think prostitution provides a much needed service for a lot of people. I believe that one's aversion to 'paying for sex' is a Western macho thing, believing that it's degrading and desperate to have to pay someone to sleep with you, as if you couldn't get it any other way. I don't believe that's always the case. A lot of men want a 'no fuss' relationship, no strings attached. Some men are tired of trying to read women's minds, of the arguing, of the 'Do I look fat in this dress?" or the "You don't love me anymore!" routine. It's tiring. All that said, I would like to say that it's always a personal choice with very personal reasons. It's easy to sit up on throne and point a finger and scream "Sinner", especially if you're at home with a beautiful, loving, loyal and caring wife. Not all men are so fortunate. Is it wrong to pay for sex? No. I don't think so. Heck, we've all spent our money on a lot worse things than sex, haven't we?

[Boon Mee]

This whole so-called "morality" thing is what caused those folks in Hawaii to get screwed up by the Missionaries!

Pay for personal services...right. Whether you're married or single, women control 100% of the Pussy and the man pays either way...

[Padkapow Guy]

Whether you're married or single, women control 100% of the Pussy and the man pays either way...

I got married 14 years ago and have been paying ever since.

[john b good]

I don't think that there is anything wrong with

a) selling it for financial gain providing it is not forced upon the provider. That said many "sellers" don't have a lot of choices anyway.

buying it is also OK and as someone pointed out you pay one way or another.

And, it has been around since day one hasn't it.

The industry has survived floods, droughts, wars, famines, religious 'do-gooders' (and every thing else that has been thrown at it over time)

I think that if I had the correct equipment I too would market it myself.

Must beat a 9 to 5 job hands down

[mbkudu]

Bill Clinton could answer all our questions on this topic, however he is not here today on the forum. "I swear I did not have sex with that woman." (She just

$U<k%d the living #### out of my @@@@!).

[kurgen]

Right or wrong,who cares.

I think these girls are very lucky, they are all sitting on a fortune

[The Gentleman Scamp]

There seems to be very little rape in Thailand compared to England and other western countries.

I wonder why that is...

[Sandy]

The Gentleman Scamp Posted on Thu 2004-07-15, 07:46:29

There seems to be very little rape in Thailand compared to England and other western countries.

True!

Let the lady work, let the guy get what he paid for...its a cycle of living. She works for the money to live, and men, sex is all they live for.

[Padkapow Guy]

There seems to be very little rape in Thailand compared to England and other western countries.

I wonder why that is...

from what I am told there is alot of rapes in thailand . The women are ashamed to admit it because the Thai society will look down on them and they do not have the same clout as the Thai man does. This way they think nobody will believe them or it will be made out that they wanted it.

Do not ask me for proof of this I am just relaying the message from a couple of Thai women whom this statement touch a nerve with.

Now they are all riled up it time for me to head to the bar.

[stroll]

I haven't got any statistics, but rape and attempted rape are not uncommon in Thailand. I personally know of several instances, it does appear to happen within the family or done by people the victim knows, similar to other countries. It is not reported because the victim fears she won't be believed and insult will be added to injury.

In Thailand it is unlikely that the judge will ask a guy who claims the women sort of asked for it:

'Which part of the word NO didn't you understand?'

[duke69]

"Up to you"

A girl can be either forced (by the poor life) or decide by herself .....

what about the "clients"???

Most of the times they are the really weak part. In some western countries you can find men pissed off by their life, no friends, no girls, living alone watching TV, depressed, scammed by the society.

So, who is weaker? The prostitute or the client?? They offer a service to people who need this service.

So far the girls (bar girls) I met in Thailand are more worried about buying clothes and new Hp rather than food or sending money to the village..

I'm against any kind of morality (of course girls have to be not underaged), a let's enjoy life, because it's short.