Using an overseas Debit Card to minimise paying tax for those of us staying over 180 days

[chiang mai]

4 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

The pension income would have to come from an approved pension plan, in order to claim the expenses.

I guess the confused emoji must be ww, again! Just having investments for use in old age or retirement is not enough to qualify as a pension. The pension must be bona fide and complete and derived from a pension company or pension payments system such as UK State or US SSc or even a SIPP.

[chiang mai]

10 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

The pension income would have to come from an approved pension plan, in order to claim the expenses.

When I say approved plan, I mean a real pension rather than just having some investments for use in old age and happening to be over age 65.

[4MyEgo]

9 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

That's the first I've heard of that so I'll have to look into it, do you have a link from a rleiable source that describes that specifically, rather than just a link to the TRD site? All the standard deductions and allowances I'm aware of are associated with specific income groups, rather than a general overall remitting money. 

 

I believe he was referring to life insurance, private hospital cover in Thailand as per his post ?

[chiang mai]

Just now, 4MyEgo said:

 

I believe he was referring to life insurance, private hospital cover in Thailand as per his post ?

There is a deduction for  life insurance where premiums are paid in Thailand and also a deduction for health insurance premiums, paid to a health insurer in Thailand.

[sometimewoodworker]

14 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

That's the first I've heard of that so I'll have to look into it, do you have a link from a rleiable source that describes that specifically, rather than just a link to the TRD site? All the standard deductions and allowances I'm aware of are associated with specific income groups, rather than a general overall remitting money. 

Is Forvis Mazars a good enough source?

 

there is no deduction for a pension. That is incorrect and wrongly worded.

[4MyEgo]

24 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Thank you for playing...

Next. :))

 

You know this Bingo game could work very well, no income in 2024, funds already deposited prior to that date.

 

Just thinking money to be remitted in 2025, will be 500k on 31 December 2025 from investments and 500k after 1 January 2026 as savings, that should work out very well I would imagine.

 

[tlcwaterfall]

32 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

Gift scenerio:  Someone mentioned about gifting to exgirlfriends.  I think there are more then people think who do this.

So, you send her monetary gifts  She has her own house, car etc.  You receive nothing back from the gift.  Except, you do go and visit her a few times a year and you stay in a hotel.  She comes to your hotel and you have sex with her.  Let's say 10 times a week.  She does this over appreciation for the gifts you send.  If you didn't send it she would not meet you.  Isn't this receiving something back from your kind gift?  How would this possibly be taxed?

Revenue department have cameras in the hotel room mate. That's how they will get you for the tax. 1000 baht for each bonk! 😁

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Is Forvis Mazars a good enough source?

There are 8 types of possible income but I don't see where income from overseas investment remitted to Thailand is one of them. At first I thought it might be type 2 income but that is from employment sources. Type 4 income includes investment income but only from within Thailand. So no, Mazars is not that useful right now in trying to understand things. I will try and do some digging.

[chiang mai]

6 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

You know this Bingo game could work very well, no income in 2024, funds already deposited prior to that date.

 

Just thinking money to be remitted in 2025, will be 500k on 31 December 2025 from investments and 500k after 1 January 2026 as savings, that should work out very well I would imagine.

 

Here's the 8 types of income, maybe somebody else can shed light on what's being said here because I've not heard of this before and can't see that it exists, unless it is associated with a specific type/category of income which doesn't appear to exist.

1. income from personal services rendered to employers;
2. income by virtue of jobs, positions or services rendered;
3. income from goodwill, copyright, franchise, other rights, annuity or income in the nature of yearly payments derived from a will or any other juristic Act or judgment of the Court;
4. income in the nature of dividends, interest on deposits with banks in Thailand, shares of profits or other benefits from a juristic company, juristic partnership, or mutual fund, payments received as a result of the reduction of capital, a bonus, an increased capital holdings, gains from amalgamation, acquisition or dissolution of juristic companies or partnerships, and gains from transferring of shares or partnership holdings;
5. income from letting of property and from breaches of contracts, installment sales or hire-purchase contracts;
6. income from liberal professions;
7. income from construction and other contracts of work;
8. income from business, commerce, agriculture, industry, transport or any other activity not specified earlier.

https://rd.go.th/english/6045.html

[sometimewoodworker]

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

There are 8 types of possible income but I don't see where income from overseas investment remitted to Thailand is one of them. At first I thought it might be type 2 income but that is from employment sources. Type 4 income includes investment income but only from within Thailand. So no, Mazars is not that useful right now in trying to understand things. I will try and do some digging.

So do please explain your interpretation of 

 

This is the allowance that has wrongly been worded as an allowance specific to a pension.

If you are so sure that there is an allowance specifically allowed against a pension only I would like to see an authoritative publication listing that.
 

A tax director with Mazars knew of no such allowance and it is precisely his job to know of all allowance that can be claimed.

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

So do please explain your interpretation of 

 

This is the allowance that has wrongly been worded as an allowance specific to a pension.

If you are so sure that there is an allowance specifically allowed against a pension only I would like to see an authoritative publication listing that.
 

A tax director with Mazars knew of no such allowance and it is precisely his job to know of all allowance that can be claimed.

From the pinned guide below, it's code number PD (number 5 below). Much more than that you'll need to do your own digging or go back and see the expert you consulted. FWIW I've claimed the 50% of income for the past half dozen years or so but my income is from an accepted pension source.

 

the following TEDA, identified by the corresponding RD code:  

 

a) Personal Allowance for self (PA1) - 60,000 

b) Personal Allowance for wife (PA2) - 60,000 

c) Over age 65 years exemption (OAE) - 190,000 

d) 50% of pension income received, up to 100k (PD) - 100,000 

e) In addition, the first 150,000 of assessable income is zero rated and free of tax (ZR)  

 

90) Additional deductions and allowances exist for health or life insurance premiums paid in Thailand, along with a range of other things. A complete list of deductions, allowances and exemptions can be found in the links below: 

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html  or from Sherrings below. 

 

https://sherrings.com/personal-tax-deductions-allowances-thailand.html 

[4MyEgo]

27 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Here's the 8 types of income, maybe somebody else can shed light on what's being said here because I've not heard of this before and can't see that it exists, unless it is associated with a specific type/category of income which doesn't appear to exist.

 

Either way, I think if I deposit 500k baht at the end of one financial year and 500k at the beginning of the new financial year, my TEDA of 485,000 baht will render me in paying 750 baht for the end of the financial year deposit, where I deposit 500,000 baht of assessible income, and then zero the following tax year due to 500,000 baht deposited and derived from savings.

 

I also get the mil baht that I am looking for each year so to speak.

 

[chiang mai]

21 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

So do please explain your interpretation of 

 

This is the allowance that has wrongly been worded as an allowance specific to a pension.

If you are so sure that there is an allowance specifically allowed against a pension only I would like to see an authoritative publication listing that.
 

A tax director with Mazars knew of no such allowance and it is precisely his job to know of all allowance that can be claimed.

There's a debate that was held below which discusses TEDA, you were in on part of it...see below. 

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

1 hour ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

That's what I was trying to say.

 

I remit 500,000 baht made from investments and 500,000 baht from savings, and by the time TEDA is taken into consideration, it's basically ZERO.

 

Never played Bingo, but liking it 🙂

 

 

Are you remitting from a sale of an investment?

Does that 500K include both original capital and gain?

[4MyEgo]

1 minute ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Are you remitting from a sale of an investment?

Does that 500K include both original capital and gain?

 

The more I look into it, it's better to remit 500k from savings end of one financial year and 500k beginning of new financial year, as there would be CGT events payable here from investments, so I don't like the sounds of that.

[sometimewoodworker]

33 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

From the pinned guide below, it's code number PD (number 5 below). Much more than that you'll need to do your own digging or go back and see the expert you consulted. FWIW I've claimed the 50% of income for the past half dozen years or so but my income is from an accepted pension source.

 

the following TEDA, identified by the corresponding RD code:  

 

a) Personal Allowance for self (PA1) - 60,000 

b) Personal Allowance for wife (PA2) - 60,000 

c) Over age 65 years exemption (OAE) - 190,000 

d) 50% of pension income received, up to 100k (PD) - 100,000 

e) In addition, the first 150,000 of assessable income is zero rated and free of tax (ZR)  

 

90) Additional deductions and allowances exist for health or life insurance premiums paid in Thailand, along with a range of other things. A complete list of deductions, allowances and exemptions can be found in the links below: 

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/6045.html  or from Sherrings below. 

 

https://sherrings.com/personal-tax-deductions-allowances-thailand.html 

 

You are again defining the first of the Sherrings allowances as d) above while they only define it as 

 

Deduction against Category 1 Income (salaries, wages, pension income)

50% of assessable income but not more than 100,000 Baht Mazars also defines it as Deductible expenses for income 50% of income capped at 100,000 baht

So your deduction is safe at ฿100,000 but miss termed. The definition given in the chart is wrong though the allowance exists and can be claimed by anyone with more than 200,000 of assessable income.

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

 

You are again defining the first of the Sherrings allowances as d) above while they only define it as 

 

 

Deduction against Category 1 Income (salaries, wages, pension income)

50% of assessable income but not more than 100,000 Baht Mazars also defines it as Deductible expenses for income 50 of income capped at 100,000 baht

 

No, I'm defining the 50% deduction as being specific to one of the 8 types of income. The problem you have is that your 100k deduction for overseas investment income doesn't appear to be any of those 8 types. Category 1 income is clearly defined, income from salaries wages pensions etc, that's the one I use. The 10K deduction  you're talking about is where?

[sometimewoodworker]

31 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

There's a debate that was held below which discusses TEDA, you were in on part of it...see below. 

 

And from that

this shows that the allowance for expenses exists and is against all assessable income 

[sometimewoodworker]

17 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

The 10K deduction  you're talking about is where?

What 10k deduction?

 

I have a 10k deduction  but have no idea if you are talking about that

 

Life insurance premiums for the spouse with no income

The policy must be for 10 years or more, and made with an insurer conducting business in Thailand

Amount actually paid, but not exceeding 10,000 baht

[chiang mai]

5 minutes ago, sometimewoodworker said:

 

And from that

this shows that the allowance for expenses exists and is against all assessable income 

Yes, but against Category 1 income only, salaries, wages, pensions etc.

 

Once again, which category of income is the remitted investment income that you want to take a 100k deduction for?

[chiang mai]

Just now, sometimewoodworker said:

What 10k deduction?

 

I have a 10k deduction  but have no idea if you are talking about that

 

Life insurance premiums for the spouse with no income

The policy must be for 10 years or more, and made with an insurer conducting business in Thailand

Amount actually paid, but not exceeding 10,000 baht

Typo, meant to read 100k.

[NoDisplayName]

22 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

The more I look into it, it's better to remit 500k from savings end of one financial year and 500k beginning of new financial year, as there would be CGT events payable here from investments, so I don't like the sounds of that.

 

How so?  "Savings" is not income, and is not assessable.

There is currently no space on the tax forms to list all your remittances, only your assessable income.  The 500K savings is essentially invisible.

 

You determine which amounts are assessable, which in your case is 500K investment income MINUS cost basis and expenses. 

[chiang mai]

7 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

How so?  "Savings" is not income, and is not assessable.

There is currently no space on the tax forms to list all your remittances, only your assessable income.  The 500K savings is essentially invisible.

 

You determine which amounts are assessable, which in your case is 500K investment income MINUS cost basis and expenses. 

Is there an expenses deductions for overseas investment income? And do you know the category of income that is relevant? 

[NoDisplayName]

1 minute ago, chiang mai said:

Is there an expenses deductions for overseas investment income? And do you know the category of income that is relevant? 

 

Self-assessment by 4MyEgo.  He will decide which and how much of his remittances will be declared on his tax form under whichever classification.

 

TRD never sees any documents.........under normal circumstances.

Maybe Mr. Ego sold a condo.  That would incur agent's fees, which Mr. Ego would deduct from the proceeds along with purchase price.

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Self-assessment by 4MyEgo.  He will decide which and how much of his remittances will be declared on his tax form under whichever classification.

 

TRD never sees any documents.........under normal circumstances.

Maybe Mr. Ego sold a condo.  That would incur agent's fees, which Mr. Ego would deduct from the proceeds along with purchase price.

I didn't clarify but when he wrote, investments, I took that to mean financial investments such as in markets.....perhaps @4MyEgo can clarify is real estate, markets, capital gains etc.

 

The reason why it's important to know the category of income is because the expenses percentage varies accordingly, Sherrings clarifies:

 

https://sherrings.com/personal-tax-deductions-allowances-thailand.html

 

Category 1 income is 50%, Category 5 is 30%, Category 6 is 60% etc etc.

 

Try as I may I cannot make classic investment in overseas markets fit into any of the 8 types of income, which makes me wonder if there is an expenses element associated with that type of income. 

[4MyEgo]

4 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I took that to mean financial investments such as in markets.....perhaps @4MyEgo can clarify is real estate, markets, capital gains etc.

 

Correct, shares, no capital gains tax payable in home country, dividends tax already taken out, so no tax there either.

[NoDisplayName]

Just now, 4MyEgo said:

 

Correct, shares, no capital gains tax payable in home country, dividends tax already taken out, so no tax there either.

 

You still haven't told us how much of the 500K is income/gain.

[4MyEgo]

8 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

You still haven't told us how much of the 500K is income/gain.

 

All I would assume are gains, that said, I would have the choice to either say they are savings or gains, whichever suits me, as it is a mixed account, i.e. savings and shares, money in, money out.

 

[chiang mai]

There are two sections in the PWC handbook to read. The first defines the assessable income categories as follows:

 

"Assessable income Residents and non-residents are taxed on their assessable income derived from employment or business carried on in Thailand, regardless of whether the income is paid in or outside Thailand. Residents who derive income from outside Thailand will be subject to tax only where the income is remitted into Thailand in the year in which it is derived. Assessable income is classified into eight categories: 1. Salaries and wages (including income from stock options, house rent allowance and other fringe benefits) 2. Hire of work, office of employment or service rendered 3. Goodwill, copyright, franchise, patent, other rights, annuity, etc. PwC Thailand I Thai Tax 2023/24 Booklet 4 4. Interest, dividend, bonus for investors, gain on amalgamation, acquisition or dissolution of a company or partnership, gain on transfer of shares, cryptocurrencies or digital tokens. 5. Lease of property, breach of hire-purchase and instalment sale contract 6. Income from liberal professions, such as law, medicine, engineering, architecture, accountancy and fine arts 7. Income from a contract of work whereby the contractor provides essential materials other than tools 8. Income from business, commerce, industry and income other than as specified in (1) – (7)".

 

The second defines the deductions that can be taken against those income categories, and their respective rate:

 

"Deductible expenses The amount of personal expenses that may be deducted depends on the category of assessable income, as follows: • Income under the above categories of assessable income (1) and (2), including goodwill, copyright and other rights under (3), a deduction of 50% is allowed subject to a maximum of Baht 100,000. • Income under (5), the rates of deduction vary from 10% to 30% depending on the type of rented property. • Income under (6), (7) and (8), the rates of deduction vary from 30% to 60% depending on the type of income or type of business. The deduction of expenses in relation to goodwill, copyright and other rights under (3) and assessable income under (5)-(8) may be on an actual basis if satisfactory evidence of the expenditure can be provided to the Revenue Department".

 

You will note that investment income is Category 4 income, for which there is no corresponding deductible expense, all the other income categories have a deductible percentage.

 

https://www.pwc.com/th/en/tax/assets/thai-tax/thai-tax-booklet-2023-24.pdf

 

 

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

16 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

All I would assume are gains, that said, I would have the choice to either say they are savings or gains, whichever suits me, as it is a mixed account, i.e. savings and shares, money in, money out.

 

 

Okay, so here's the deal.  Up until now, and probably into the foreseeable future, TRD will accept our SELF-ASSESSMENT of the funds we remit.  You declare what you want to declare, just be able to support that in the unlikely event TRD has questions.

 

I don't know your finances, but shirley you can't mean you sold stock and the entire proceeds are gains! 

 

I know some knowledgeable posters claim that funds are remitted as percentages of gain/principal, but it seems fair to self-assess that gains are kept offshore, and only original principal is remitted.