world wide income taxation update

[KhunHeineken]

32 minutes ago, Airalee said:

Nope.

 

Which is why I’m currently in Vietnam and am meeting with a Real Estate agent when I return to Bangkok to discuss the sale of my condo and repatriating all my assets back to the US.

As I have posted previously, I'm giving Thailand a chance this first time around.

 

If none of this happens because of TiT, great, carry on as normal. 

 

If I have to pay a bit of tax, ok, I'll pay it. 

 

If I have to pay an mount of tax that I think is a rip off, and Thailand no longer represents a value for money retirement destination for me, then it's 179 days in Thailand, and the rest in Danang - Vietnam, where I have already chosen the condo building.  

 

Thailand is not the be all and end all for me.  I show the Thailand the same amount of loyalty as it shows me - ZERO. 

 

Many here, mainly pensioners, will not have to pay much tax, but that new car or unforeseen medical operation may mean remitting a large lump sum to pay for such items.  They will cost more, as the remitted funds will be taxed early the follow year, which could make such things a rip off. 

 

Yes, we can talk about assessabe income, pre 2024 savings, exemptions, blah blah blah, but they have us by the b*lls and they know it. 

 

Just how hard they will squeeze is yet to be seen, but I certainly have my Plan B in place, and I have no problem becoming a non tax resident of Thailand and they will not see a baht out of me in tax, VAT aside. 

 

Further to this, it just goes to show how unpredictable and unstable Thailand is, especially when that retirement visa / extension is nothing more than a 12 month tourist visa that can be revoked, at any time. 

[Airalee]

31 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

As I have posted previously, I'm giving Thailand a chance this first time around.

 

If none of this happens because of TiT, great, carry on as normal. 

 

If I have to pay a bit of tax, ok, I'll pay it. 

 

If I have to pay an mount of tax that I think is a rip off, and Thailand no longer represents a value for money retirement destination for me, then it's 179 days in Thailand, and the rest in Danang - Vietnam, where I have already chosen the condo building.  

 

Thailand is not the be all and end all for me.  I show the Thailand the same amount of loyalty as it shows me - ZERO. 

 

Many here, mainly pensioners, will not have to pay much tax, but that new car or unforeseen medical operation may mean remitting a large lump sum to pay for such items.  They will cost more, as the remitted funds will be taxed early the follow year, which could make such things a rip off. 

 

Yes, we can talk about assessabe income, pre 2024 savings, exemptions, blah blah blah, but they have us by the b*lls and they know it. 

 

Just how hard they will squeeze is yet to be seen, but I certainly have my Plan B in place, and I have no problem becoming a non tax resident of Thailand and they will not see a baht out of me in tax, VAT aside. 

 

Further to this, it just goes to show how unpredictable and unstable Thailand is, especially when that retirement visa / extension is nothing more than a 12 month tourist visa that can be revoked, at any time. 

I’m being a little more proactive only because the government has been clear as mud on what their plans are and there has been zero communication between them and the expats/retirees here.  And as you say, they have us by the balls.  It’s no secret that their economy is in the sh*tter so it is to be expected that they’ll use us as tax donkeys.

 

Of course the pensioners won’t be paying anything due to tax treaties but I still have a decade to go before I tap my social security and the way that Thailand taxes capital gains….no thanks.  Most of those pensioners aren’t contributing anything to the economy anyways. Sure….they may have bought their Issan wives houses and cars but as the saying goes…what have you done for us lately.

 

I’m currently in Danang and have also been zeroing in on condos/apartments although I haven’t decided as they are on an apartment building spree here so there will be a lot of nice new places to choose from for much less than Thailand.

 

I have already replaced one physician and will replace others as necessary.  Of course, healthcare is better in Thailand, but it’s even better in Japan so if there are any surgeries needed in the future (knock on wood), I’ll fly there instead of back to Thailand.

 

I won’t even need to rent a condo back in Thailand as I can just stay at my girlfriends place rent free.  The view isn’t as nice, but it will do.  I’ll sell my car as I’ve already checked “driving the Maehongson loop in a convertible sports car” off my bucket list and as I won’t be doing any traveling there anymore, I’ll just take a taxi, bts or walk wherever I go.   No more tips either.

 

I’ll also purchase all my clothing, electronics, toiletries and everything else here in Vietnam (or back in the US), bring plenty of snacks etc back with me to Thailand and become a complete miser in Thailand.  All my eating out will be done in other countries and I will cook at home while in Thailand and all travel etc will be outside Thailand also.  I’ll be one of those guys living on ฿20,000/month….or less.

 

Starve the beast!

 

See you in Danang! 😁

[Dan O]

2 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

For some of us with both the money and no-family, it is easy to leave Thailand for 6.5 to 7 months of the year, and only live in Thailand for 5 to 5.5 months. 

 

However there are some with families, and the approach the single expat (or expat with wife and no kids) can adopt is easy.  For those with a family much more difficult, and harder to pick up roots and leave.

If its an excrement hole then choose to go or stay 

[Everyman]

People speak as if consumption taxes “don’t count” or something but if they really knew and counted how much they spend on taxes for alcohol, cheese, vehicles, plus VAT, plus a bunch of other taxes they would see that already pay a lot. no “free rides” are happening. 

[cliveshep]

I have a delightful and loving Thai wife, she is a treasure so although on a meagre UK pension no way I'd leave her just because venal authorities wish to plunder my pension. BUT my pension already pays medicine for one person monthly and supports two with living expenses monthly. Normally I do bank to bank internet transfers once the pension is transferred from my UK bank via WISE to my Bangkok bank account. So if they choose to tax my pension in spite of a DTA in place, because UK tax is far less than what we are told Thailand will charge us, to limit tax liabilities I have a cunning plan (as Blackadder would say!).

 

I see from elsewhere on this thread that the tax-free pay is 150,000 p.a, so my cunning plan is to actually transfer via WISE from the UK to myself, my wife, and the other recipients avoiding the money first landing in my BKK account. That way the 150,000 tax free rule will be applied on each of the 4 persons and no tax would be paid on any. We live quite modestly on under thb25,000 a month anyway so no probs. WISE charges on the 4 transfers would be a minimal extra over for 4 instead of current 1 transfer charge so not an issue. We have no debts, got our own truck and a car and a motorbike, a 5 bed-4 bath detached house in a walled village all paid for so it's just food and utility bills plus a bit for the vehicles we need to worry about.

 

For those supporting others paying them from home country directly via WISE or whoever allows them to use the 150,000 tax free allowance so it does cut down potential taxation by reducing the taxable amounts by 4 x 150,000 (600,000) baht in my case. That more than covers my UK pension which is a bit pathetic, the UK are very mean to their pensioners.
 

[topt]

1 hour ago, cliveshep said:

So if they choose to tax my pension in spite of a DTA in place,

I am not sure you really understand either DTA's in general or specifically the Thai/UK DTA.

It is very clear that Government pensions, civil service, armed forces etc are only taxable in the UK

State and private pension theoretically taxable in Thailand. 

 

1 hour ago, cliveshep said:

I see from elsewhere on this thread that the tax-free pay is 150,000 p.a,

You may also want to have a look at the pinned "tax guide" or at least the start of it which defines the "allowances" you can get which, depending on your age, increases the amount below which you pay no tax quite considerably.

I am not going to make any comment on your "cunning plan" as you call it.

[KhunHeineken]

On 1/13/2025 at 2:52 PM, Airalee said:

I’m being a little more proactive only because the government has been clear as mud on what their plans are and there has been zero communication between them and the expats/retirees here.  And as you say, they have us by the balls.  It’s no secret that their economy is in the sh*tter so it is to be expected that they’ll use us as tax donkeys.

I had been proactive even before this tax news broke. 

 

I was never going to move 800k baht into a bank account in a 3rd World Country.  I use the agent method, and should they ever serious stop that, and I doubt they will, but say they did, then it's Danang for 3 months, Thailand for 3 months on a tourist visa, Danang for another 3 months, and then Thailand for another 3 months.  Not much different to Thailand 179 days straight, and Danang for the rest of the year, straight.    

 

I can't see the 800k baht staying at 800k forever.  It's been 800k for decades.  So, when they do raise it, that might knock a few out of the game.  As you say, one has to be "proactive" here, or as I say, have a Plan B.  They can change the game at any time here. 

 

On 1/13/2025 at 2:52 PM, Airalee said:

Of course the pensioners won’t be paying anything due to tax treaties but I still have a decade to go before I tap my social security and the way that Thailand taxes capital gains….no thanks.  Most of those pensioners aren’t contributing anything to the economy anyways. Sure….they may have bought their Issan wives houses and cars but as the saying goes…what have you done for us lately.

I believe the numbers have been crunched and most pensioners, from most countries, will have a little tax to pay, should they remit their whole pension.  

 

You say pensioners aren't contributing, maybe this is a way to force them to contribute, or be rid of them.   

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

On 1/13/2025 at 1:25 PM, oldcpu said:

 

For some of us with both the money and no-family, it is easy to leave Thailand for 6.5 to 7 months of the year, and only live in Thailand for 5 to 5.5 months. 

 

However there are some with families, and the approach the single expat (or expat with wife and no kids) can adopt is easy.  For those with a family much more difficult, and harder to pick up roots and leave.

I accept this, and for those that are "trapped" by the Thai government, due to emotional and financial attachments in Thailand, they have upped the price to remain in Thailand, without providing any added benefit for paying the extra money. 

 

Some will stay, and pay. 

 

Some will leave for 6 months, alone, and not pay.

 

Some will leave for 6 months with the missus, and not pay.

 

It all dependent how much one remits, thus, their lifestyle here, and whether they still believe Thailand is value for money. 

 

Everyone's circumstances and financial capacity is different.  

 

For example, I spoke to a friend last week who is going down the route of the condo is in the girl's name, but so is the mortgage.  She leaves him, the bank takes the condo back.  Sure, she could go back to the bar and try to replace him, but that's not so easy these days, and she's not so young anymore.  He can pay for this condo easily, but it's all about keeping the girl honest.  His remittances for mortgage payments will be taxed, making it more expensive, so, he's sitting back to see how this unfolds, but if this tax kicks off, he has told me he will have some big decisions to make.     He's not the only one facing some big decisions.

[KhunHeineken]

10 hours ago, cliveshep said:

I have a delightful and loving Thai wife, she is a treasure so although on a meagre UK pension no way I'd leave her just because venal authorities wish to plunder my pension. BUT my pension already pays medicine for one person monthly and supports two with living expenses monthly. Normally I do bank to bank internet transfers once the pension is transferred from my UK bank via WISE to my Bangkok bank account. So if they choose to tax my pension in spite of a DTA in place, because UK tax is far less than what we are told Thailand will charge us, to limit tax liabilities I have a cunning plan (as Blackadder would say!).

 

I see from elsewhere on this thread that the tax-free pay is 150,000 p.a, so my cunning plan is to actually transfer via WISE from the UK to myself, my wife, and the other recipients avoiding the money first landing in my BKK account. That way the 150,000 tax free rule will be applied on each of the 4 persons and no tax would be paid on any. We live quite modestly on under thb25,000 a month anyway so no probs. WISE charges on the 4 transfers would be a minimal extra over for 4 instead of current 1 transfer charge so not an issue. We have no debts, got our own truck and a car and a motorbike, a 5 bed-4 bath detached house in a walled village all paid for so it's just food and utility bills plus a bit for the vehicles we need to worry about.

 

For those supporting others paying them from home country directly via WISE or whoever allows them to use the 150,000 tax free allowance so it does cut down potential taxation by reducing the taxable amounts by 4 x 150,000 (600,000) baht in my case. That more than covers my UK pension which is a bit pathetic, the UK are very mean to their pensioners.
 

Just to add to what the other member, topt, said, what about your visa / extension?  Are you using the 800k baht method, the 65k baht per month method, or an agent? 

 

IF world wide income comes in, how does your "cunning plan" get around that?  

[Airalee]

33 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I can't see the 800k baht staying at 800k forever.  It's been 800k for decades.  So, when they do raise it, that might knock a few out of the game.

I agree.  It could very well go up.  But the last time they raised it, people who were already getting retirement renewals using ฿ in the bank were grandfathered in at the lower amount.

 

If they do raise it, I doubt it would go above the bank deposit insurance threshold of ฿1,000,000 as many people wouldn’t want to have the additional exposure along with the fact (as you state) that putting money in a 3rd world bank doesn’t seem prudent.

 

For now, I think they’ll just take what they can get.  They obviously didn’t get many people signing up for the “wealthy pensioner” visa where one needs to show a $40,000 annual income which is why I suppose they eased up on the requirement of showing $80,000 income level for two years prior to applying.

[oldcpu]

11 minutes ago, Airalee said:

 They obviously didn’t get many people signing up for the “wealthy pensioner” visa where one needs to show a $40,000 annual income which is why I suppose they eased up on the requirement of showing $80,000 income level for two years prior to applying.

 

The LTR Wealthy Pensioner is thou, still the largest LTR visa category (as of end-Nov-2024), with 30.1% of LTR Visa Qualifications approve being of the LTR Wealthy Pensioner category. 

.

[KhunHeineken]

24 minutes ago, Airalee said:

I agree.  It could very well go up.  But the last time they raised it, people who were already getting retirement renewals using ฿ in the bank were grandfathered in at the lower amount.

Sure, but my point being, they can raise it to whatever figure they like, at any time, AND, no grandfathering.  They might want to clear out the the country of the ones that "aren't contributing to the economy anyways."

 

Let's be honest, a western guy retires.  He sells up back home, retires in Thailand, brings over a lump sum of money, buys a condo, a car, parties for while, and finds a Thai bride.  Due to age, eventually, Thailand is not making much money out of him anymore.  He has, effectively, past his use by date for the Thai government.  They could try to grab some more from him, while he's still alive to do so, or be rid of him.

 

38 minutes ago, Airalee said:

If they do raise it, I doubt it would go above the bank deposit insurance threshold of ฿1,000,000 as many people wouldn’t want to have the additional exposure along with the fact (as you state) that putting money in a 3rd world bank doesn’t seem prudent.

Say they raised it to only 1,000,000 baht.  How are all the pensioners living month to month going to find a quick 200,000 baht?

 

40 minutes ago, Airalee said:

For now, I think they’ll just take what they can get.  

Haven't they always been taking what they can get from farang?   

 

[KhunHeineken]

29 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

The LTR Wealthy Pensioner is thou, still the largest LTR visa category (as of end-Nov-2024), with 30.1% of LTR Visa Qualifications approve being of the LTR Wealthy Pensioner category. 

.

Do you have a link for this? 

 

I would be interested in the break down of the other 70%. 

[oldcpu]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

Do you have a link for this? 

 

I would be interested in the break down of the other 70%. 

 

Its right on the main LTR Visa page of BoI :  https://ltr.boi.go.th/

 

Keep an eye on the 'boxes' on the right of that page that slide in and out.

 

What you might also find of interest is user Pib's speculation on this, having tracked the statistics since LTR vis inception (I believe) :

 

 

[Airalee]

28 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

The LTR Wealthy Pensioner is thou, still the largest LTR visa category (as of end-Nov-2024), with 30.1% of LTR Visa Qualifications approve being of the LTR Wealthy Pensioner category. 

.

Including all the LTR categories, there have only been 6,000ish visas issued in 28 months (from Sept 22 until Dec 2024).

 

If it wan’t declining, there would be no need to ease the requirements.

 

“As of the end of 2024, the BOI has already granted LTR visas to more than 6,000 applicants. Europe leads the list with 2,500 recipients, followed by the United States (1,080), Japan (610), China (340), and India (280).”

 

https://www.prnewswire.com/apac/news-releases/thailand-approves-update-of-long-term-resident-ltr-visas-criteria-and-conditions-to-attract-a-wider-range-of-foreign-experts-investors-and-executives-302351256.html#:~:text=As of the end of,to more than 6%2C000 applicants.
 

Thailand  desperately needs people to buy all the unsold condos and many more are still under construction.

 

“In 2023, the unsold units of residential real estate in the eastern region of Thailand grew by approximately 14.3 percent compared to the previous year. In that same year, the number of unsold residential units in the country amounted to over 356.77 thousand units.”

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1290951/thailand-growth-of-unsold-residence-units-by-region/

 

In Bangkok alone, there were approximately 85,000 unsold condos as of mid 2023 and there are countless projects still under construction and the sales have actually slowed down since then.

 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/property/2928811/condo-market-subdued-in-q4

 

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

9 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

Its right on the main LTR Visa page of BoI :  https://ltr.boi.go.th/

 

Keep an eye on the 'boxes' on the right of that page that slide in and out.

 

What you might also find of interest is user Pib's speculation on this, having tracked the statistics since LTR vis inception (I believe) :

 

 

I just looked at it.  27% are dependent.  Very strange. 

[Airalee]

32 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Sure, but my point being, they can raise it to whatever figure they like, at any time, AND, no grandfathering.  They might want to clear out the the country of the ones that "aren't contributing to the economy anyways."

I’m just using what they have already done in the past in order to speculate what they might do in the future.  You too are speculating but taking the opposite approach with regards to grandfathering the deposit requirements.

 

They could raise it to a billion baht and send everybody packing.  But they benefit more from money being brought in from outside the country to increase their gdp rather than just trying to increase exports or increase the velocity of money within the country.  
 

32 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Let's be honest, a western guy retires.  He sells up back home, retires in Thailand, brings over a lump sum of money, buys a condo, a car, parties for while, and finds a Thai bride.  Due to age, eventually, Thailand is not making much money out of him anymore.  He has, effectively, past his use by date for the Thai government.  They could try to grab some more from him, while he's still alive to do so, or be rid of him.

“Be rid of him” and the condo and car gets sold and then very quickly, millions of baht (10+ million for myself) leave the country.

 

“Let’s be honest”….Do you really think they want that?   I doubt it.

 

Besides…later in life, instead of getting money for condos and cars, they get it for healthcare.  They do after all bill themselves as a “hub” for healthcare tourism.  

32 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Say they raised it to only 1,000,000 baht.  How are all the pensioners living month to month going to find a quick 200,000 baht?

 

Like I say…if history repeats (and it very well might)….they will grandfther the pensioners in.  I’m sure they (the government) would prefer to keep the 800,000 in the bank than see it be repatriated back to the west.  Hello!  Reserve Ratios!

 

You make it sound like they’re going to bum rush everybody to the exit.

 

Would you care to step across the border (gambling is illegal in Thailand) and make a wager?

 

Put your money where your mouth is.

[KhunHeineken]

4 minutes ago, Airalee said:

Including all the LTR categories, there have only been 6,000ish visas issued in 28 months (from Sept 22 until Dec 2024).

 

If it wan’t declining, there would be no need to ease the requirements.

 

“As of the end of 2024, the BOI has already granted LTR visas to more than 6,000 applicants. Europe leads the list with 2,500 recipients, followed by the United States (1,080), Japan (610), China (340), and India (280).”

 

https://www.prnewswire.com/apac/news-releases/thailand-approves-update-of-long-term-resident-ltr-visas-criteria-and-conditions-to-attract-a-wider-range-of-foreign-experts-investors-and-executives-302351256.html#:~:text=As of the end of,to more than 6%2C000 applicants.
 

Thailand  desperately needs people to buy all the unsold condos and many more are still under construction.

 

“In 2023, the unsold units of residential real estate in the eastern region of Thailand grew by approximately 14.3 percent compared to the previous year. In that same year, the number of unsold residential units in the country amounted to over 356.77 thousand units.”

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1290951/thailand-growth-of-unsold-residence-units-by-region/

 

In Bangkok alone, there were approximately 85,000 unsold condos as of mid 2023 and there are countless projects still under construction and the sales have actually slowed down since then.

 

https://www.bangkokpost.com/property/2928811/condo-market-subdued-in-q4

 

 

 

As a renter, this is not news to me.  It's been happening for years. 

 

Due to the massive over supply, rents are so cheap here, and there's constant downward pressure on rental prices.

 

As I have said in the past, the money that it would take to buy the condo I am living in, if I put it in a bank in my home country, which pays around 5%, the interest more than covers the rent, so why would I buy?  You can't really own a property here anyway.

 

I have the money invested that returns more than 5%, so the figures are skewed even more towards renting.  

 

When renting, no taxes or fees to pay, no repairs, upgrades or maintenance to pay, and the freedom to move at any time, should your condo building become a Chinese AirBnB, or for any other reason, like a nicer condo that is even cheaper.  

 

The figures show the whole "rent is dead money" argument has been debunked, and has been for years.    

 

I hope they keep building, and building, and building. 

 

[Airalee]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

As I have said in the past, the money that it would take to buy the condo I am living in, if I put it in a bank in my home country, which pays around 5%, the interest more than covers the rent, so why would I buy?  You can't really own a property here anyway.

When I bought my condo, banks paid only 1-2% on long term CDs.  I guess we will see how long that 5% CD rate stays around.

 

The developer where I bought rents the same units (lower floors) for ฿49,000.  I bought at a steep  discount  (bought a contract from someone who couldn’t close during covid)

 

5% on 8,000,000 wouldn’t cover my rent.

[Airalee]

5 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

The figures show the whole "rent is dead money" argument has been debunked, and has been for years.  

I have always agreed to that and if you check my posting history, you will see that I am always in favor of renting over buying 99% of the time and even say that as an owner.  I got lucky with my purchase.  There aren’t many condos similar to mine.

[Airalee]

8 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I hope they keep building, and building, and building. 

I hope so too.

 

I love economic crashes.  Both the GFC (housing bubble) and Covid were very profitable for me.

[anrcaccount]

28 minutes ago, Airalee said:

1 hour ago, oldcpu said:

 

The LTR Wealthy Pensioner is thou, still the largest LTR visa category (as of end-Nov-2024), with 30.1% of LTR Visa Qualifications approve being of the LTR Wealthy Pensioner category. 

.

Including all the LTR categories, there have only been 6,000ish visas issued in 28 months (from Sept 22 until Dec 2024).

 

If it wan’t declining, there would be no need to ease the requirements.

 

“As of the end of 2024, the BOI has already granted LTR visas to more than 6,000 applicants. Europe leads the list with 2,500 recipients, followed by the United States (1,080), Japan (610), China (340), and India (280).”

 

https://www.prnewswire.com/apac/news-releases/thailand-approves-update-of-long-term-resident-ltr-visas-criteria-and-conditions-to-attract-a-wider-range-of-foreign-experts-investors-and-executives-302351256.html#:~:text=As of the end of,to more than 6%2C000 applicants.

 

With respect, and acknowledgment that is a great visa for those who have it  , the LTR program has been a complete flop from the stated perspective of attracting new long term residents to Thailand.

 

Approx 4000 (number excluding dependents) granted in 2.5 years, very low numbers.

 

Judging by the posts on the forum, most of these to people who were already living in Thailand under a different visa. Not at all the aim of the program . It wasnt designed to make it easier for people already living here to stay. It was aimed to attract NEW "high potential" residents. It has failed to do this.  

 

The DTV has been much more successful from a numbers view, with 3x+ the approvals already, despite only being available for a few months. 

[Airalee]

4 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

With respect, and acknowledgment that is a great visa for those who have it  , the LTR program has been a complete flop from the stated perspective of attracting new long term residents to Thailand.

 

Approx 4000 (number excluding dependents) granted in 2.5 years, very low numbers.

 

Judging by the posts on the forum, most of these to people who were already living in Thailand under a different visa. Not at all the aim of the program . It wasnt designed to make it easier for people already living here to stay. It was aimed to attract NEW "high potential" residents. It has failed to do this.  

 

The DTV has been much more successful from a numbers view, with 3x+ the approvals already, despite only being available for a few months. 

I looked into the LTR visa for curiosities sake, and would have been able to qualify for it.  But I already own a condo and prefer the Non-O for myself.

 

I don’t know why someone would choose a 10 year visa over the 800k in the bank route.