Any advantages to retirement over marriage visa?

[DrJack54]

2 minutes ago, UWEB said:

So you have to wait at least 90 days to get a CoR to open a Bank Account?

Previously you could obtain equivalent from embassy. Most still can however the same countries that stopped income letters (UK, USA AU) also stopped endorsement of address.

Without TM47 CW will not issue 

COR. 

That is why if using plan is to open bank account in Bangkok then best option is to enter Thailand with a Non O

[GroveHillWanderer]

3 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

The upside to the marriage visa, is that only 400,000 is needed as a deposit, and it does not have to stay in the bank, once your visa is granted.

 

The downsides are:

The hurdles you need to jump over, in order to get a marriage visa are stupid, ridiculous, unnecessary, draconian, wasteful, and silly. I understand the need for them to verify that you are a legitimate couple. Upon the first application. But, the dumb requirements should not relate to renewals. You should not be required to show fresh images of the house each time, copies of the marriage papers, the house documents, either come with a local Thai witness, or bring a signed affidavit from a local Thai each time, provide new maps to the house, and dozens of other requirements.

 

I just do not even know what to say about the process. I felt like a street dog by the time I left. After hours of paperwork, copy after copy after copy, each page having to be signed, and then being grilling by the surly officer, I literally felt like a street dog. The level of disrespect that immigration shows married couples here, is totally uncalled for, beyond the pale, and inane. The copy woman, the guy sorting our papers, they were all nice. But, the officers? Such sourpusses.

 

The woman who was helping us was so difficult to work with, when she finally rejected us over the tiniest thing she did not like, after nearly an hour of reviewing every document with a microscope, so to speak, and said no, I responded by saying yes. YES, you are going to do this. Yes, you are going to do this right now. YES, you are going to stop saying NO to me right now. This ends now. She looked at me and did not know what to say. I asked for the manager. The top brass came over, and we had it sorted in 30 minutes. Took nearly 3 hours. And as usual, it will be a month, until I have final approval. Is it worth it? NO. It is my last marriage visa. I will go back to a retirement visa next year, or leave the country, before I subject myself to that abuse one more time.

 

Frankly, I think at least some of this comes from the rather extreme level of xenophobia and the toxic racism of the army. It filters down throughout the government. I do not think they want us here. And making these procedures difficult is one way of expressing that. 

 

Fortunately, I feel very little of that sentiment from the non governmental Thai people. 

I use only the retirement visa now. I realize that part of the aggravation that I felt in regard to living in Thailand was due to having to deal with immigration and by switching to the retirement visa I was able to rid myself of a lot of that aggravation. 

Sorry your local IO treats your like that. All I can speak to is my personal experience in Hua Hin where there isn't any of that kind of unpleasantness. The IO's there have always been unfailingly polite and pleasant when I've been processing my marriage extensions. They just go quickly and quietly through all the documentation, with barely a query about anything, in my experience. 

 

I always go up to the window on my own, my wife stays behind in the seating area and they only call her forward when they need to take the photo of the two of us together. 

 

It usually takes around 40 - 45 minutes and most of that is just waiting for your turn.

 

Admittedly, the first time was a little more complicated, they needed a witness there with us to sign some kind of document and there was a home visit about an hour later, but that was only the first year and we haven't needed a witness or had a home visit since.

 

The home visit was also very perfunctory - they said they would come about one hour after I handed in the paperwork if that was convenient (it was) and just sat outside chatting for about ten minutes with ourselves and the witness (our next door neighbour). They took a couple of photos of us and the IO together at the front gate and then by the front door of the house - and that was it.

 

Based on some of the stories I'd read on here I was worried it would be a lot more tricky, but it was really straightforward.

[DrJack54]

38 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

Based on some of the stories I'd read on here I was worried it would be a lot more tricky, but it was really straightforward.

You replied to Rant post.

Of course requirements for extensions marriage are more involved than retirement.

However most seem comfortable with it. 

 

 

[Rob Browder]

19 hours ago, Lite Beer said:

Surely not.

I have been doing marriage extensions for years without any problems.

usually in and out of Immigration within an hour.

I have heard such stories from friendly offices.  My experience with marriage-based was all day in the sticks - where, at least, they were polite.  Submit and review - 2nd person reviews and questions you.  This includes review of "how you met" questions every time, even when married for many years.  Wait over lunch, return - then the top-ranking person reviews it all over again.  Because not using an agent, the District office is furious that no envelope is included, and they seem terrified there might be a mistake.  Required documents and pictures changed every year (district-office demand), so need an extra trip in-advance to see what is needed. 

At some offices like Pattaya, the IOs may be extremely rude, especially to your wife - may add "another document" multiple times / visits - having nothing to do with if you are "really married and living together."  If going this route, bring all old passports, past applications, etc in a bag, as they always ask for something else not on the "official" list.  

 

My wife, especially, was delighted when I could finally apply for retirement.

[Rob Browder]

9 hours ago, sandyf said:

Yes it is fairly easy to change from one method to the other.

 

As  I mentioned earler you don't need 12 months on a very first application. There is an execption in place for people just arriving in Thailand and I am quite sure you could claim that to be the case. In the attached document you can see down in the bottom left hand corner of the first page how it is applied.

 

Yes, but they don't follow the rules - is the problem.   They did at first, but then changed to demanding you had must have been transferring money every month for a year before you got here. 

 

There were more detailed examples in published paperwork at the time, allowing a few months of xfer for a 1st extension.  Nothing was said about that being temporary.  You could arrrive, open a bank-account, start xfers, border bounce to get a few xfers under your belt, then apply for the Non-O.

 

But, with those SANE transfer rules for the 1st application, not enough people were being pushed to their "no financials required" envelope-agents, which defeated the reason for blocking embassy-letters in the first place - and for changing the 'in the bank" seasoning requirements to the byzantine system in-place now. 

[Rob Browder]

16 hours ago, StraightTalk said:

Once in Thailand, open a bank account and deposit THB 800K or more. Then, go to the immigration office and apply for a 'Non-Immigrant Visa Category O'.

If in Pattaya, you need 15K in an envelope (no receipt) to do that immediately - retirement or marriage - though the "official rules" say what you said is true.  If in CW, they do it "by the book" without the payoff, but ...

 

I'd get a Non-O 90 day from a Thai consulate, if at all possible, to avoid applying for the initial 90-Day in-country.  It is also easier to open a bank account with a Non-O visa-entry, which avoids the "chicken egg" problem created by recent bank-policies - "you need a bank account to apply for the Non-O, but a Non-O to apply for the bank-account." 

 

Just be sure to get that visa for the same reason as you will use for your 1st extension - marriage or retirement.

[Luuk Chaai]

20 hours ago, UWEB said:

Hua Hin is doing this, but no problem for me.

4 years using Hua Hin for my marriage extension ...  they physically came to the house 1 time  ..  in and out in 3 minutes and very polite

 other 3 they called and said go out front and stand in front of the house so we can see the house # and took a photo over Line app

 easy peasy !

[AndreasHG]

On 9/12/2024 at 8:16 PM, Colonel_Mustard said:

It seemed to me that the retirement visa would require more paperwork - police clearance, medical cert, health insurance etc.  Whereas the marriage visa only appears to require marriage proof in addition to funds in the bank.

It would be advisable to seek legal assistance from a reputable lawyer. Many of the documents you mention are not required. Most of the forms required by the Immigration are available online.

 

I stay in Thailand on a retirement VISA without health insurance. I applied for the VISA while being in Thailand, as instructed by the lawyer I consulted. Before coming to Thailand I applied for a 3-months Single Entry Tourist Visa. A friend of mine, who applied while in the USA for the Retirement VISA more than 10 years ago, is still required to have the insurance.

 

The "most difficult" thing was to open a bank account. I opened my account with Bangkok Bank. It is essential to apply in a branch which routinely deals with expats, where the staff is fluent in English.

The branch located on the ground floor of the Exchange Tower, Asoke, Bangkok, did the trick for me. All I had to show was a photocopy of my passport stamped and signed by my embassy, the passport, and a copy of the 1-year lease contract for my apartment. 

 

This is the law firm that supported me with my application: Siam Legal International | Law Firm in Thailand (siam-legal.com).

 

[DrJack54]

22 minutes ago, AndreasHG said:

It would be advisable to seek legal assistance from a reputable lawyer.

Absolutely not necessary to obtain a non O retirement from visa exempt or tourist visa entry.

23 minutes ago, AndreasHG said:

I stay in Thailand on a retirement VISA without health insurance.

You are living in Thailand with annual extensions. Very simple process.

 

24 minutes ago, AndreasHG said:

A friend of mine, who applied while in the USA for the Retirement VISA more than 10 years ago, is still required to have the insurance

Your friend initially had a Non O-A visa and that along with extensions requires insurance.

He could kill off his Non O-A and do as you did in obtaining a Non O at his local immigration office..

26 minutes ago, AndreasHG said:

All I had to show was a photocopy of my passport stamped and signed by my embassy

UK, USA, AU do not supply embassy "letter" 

 

27 minutes ago, AndreasHG said:

This is the law firm that supported me with my application

Siam Legal are currently not assisting with opening bank accounts..

[bigt3116]

4 hours ago, Rob Browder said:

which defeated the reason for blocking embassy-letters in the first place

 

Do you know why the embassy letters stopped?

 

[DrJack54]

25 minutes ago, bigt3116 said:

 

Do you know why the embassy letters stopped?

 

Initially Thai immigration wanted the embassies to "verify" the income.

Of course that would be difficult.

Apart from that....the AU (to name one) was simply endorsing a "statutory declaration" 

I asked a senior Oz lady at AU embassy Bangkok about this.

Her reply for what it's worth...

"We never should have been supplying the SD" 

Explained that the statutory declarations are only valid for use in Australia. 

Just relating what I was told. Could be nonsense..

[Finlaco]

@Liquorice with a 'Marriage Visa', are you required to present your wife at Immigration for their initial 12-month permission to stay and subsequent extensions?

 

 

[DrJack54]

8 minutes ago, Finlaco said:

@Liquorice with a 'Marriage Visa', are you required to present your wife at Immigration for their initial 12-month permission to stay and subsequent extensions?

 

 

Wife needs to attend for all extensions even 60 day extension to visit wife. 

Also attends if change from annual extension based on marriage to retirement 

[AndreasHG]

1 hour ago, DrJack54 said:

Absolutely not necessary to obtain a non O retirement from visa exempt or tourist visa entry.

You are living in Thailand with annual extensions. Very simple process.

 

Your friend initially had a Non O-A visa and that along with extensions requires insurance.

He could kill off his Non O-A and do as you did in obtaining a Non O at his local immigration office..

UK, USA, AU do not supply embassy "letter" 

 

Siam Legal are currently not assisting with opening bank accounts..

1. I agree: the help of a lawyer is not necessary. Nevertheless, I am glad I asked for support the first time I applied. With regards to extensions and 90 days reports, I managed them without any help.

2. I do not understand what you mean by embassy "letter". To open the bank account, I had to provide a photocopy of my passport, with the stamp of the Embassy Consular office and a signature. Is this a "letter"?

3. Siam Legal did not assist me in opening the bank account. They only assisted me for the VISA application.

[DrJack54]

35 minutes ago, AndreasHG said:

I do not understand what you mean by embassy "letter". To open the bank account, I had to provide a photocopy of my passport, with the stamp of the Embassy Consular office and a signature. Is this a "letter"?

Yes.

Some refer to it as Statutory Declaration (AU) Some Affidavit etc.

The point is that some embassies no longer provide this "letter" 

The alternative is to obtain a COR (certificate of residence) from your immigration office.

The catch 22 is that in Bangkok you need to have done a 90 day report to obtain COR. Not possible on a tourist visa or visa exempt.

Seems that your embassy provided letter.

 

Think OP is applying for Non O in Korat. He may be able to obtain a COR there with a TM30.

Good option would be to obtain his non O in UK.

With a non O stamp should be able to open bank account 

[Liquorice]

5 hours ago, Rob Browder said:

Yes, but they don't follow the rules - is the problem.   They did at first, but then changed to demanding you had must have been transferring money every month for a year before you got here. 

 

There were more detailed examples in published paperwork at the time, allowing a few months of xfer for a 1st extension.  Nothing was said about that being temporary. 

You're confusing the rules in force at that time.

When the UK, US and Aus Embassies ceased Income letters at the end of 2018, Immigration were forced into issuing a new order accepting monthly overseas transfers to a Thai bank account in addition to the Embassy Income letters. This new order dated 21st Dec, but not published until the beginning of Jan 2019, amended the previous order 138/2557 allowing those monthly overseas transfers to a Thai bank to be accepted as proof of income.
Many expats were able to obtain an Embassy Income letter prior to the cessation, and these letters were valid for 6 months.
However, many expats weren't even aware of the changes until the early months of 2019. Immigration recognised this fact that UK, US, Aus expats using the income method would therefore not be able to provide 12 months evidence of transfers to a Thai bank, so issued an additional 'leniency' order for the 2019 period.

 

 

It was clear this was a temporary order and that for the following year (2020) only 12 x monthly overseas transfer would be accepted.

 

5 hours ago, Rob Browder said:

You could arrrive, open a bank-account, start xfers, border bounce to get a few xfers under your belt, then apply for the Non-O.

Applying for the Non O at Immigration has always only permitted either 'funds' deposited in a Thai bank, an Embassy Income letter, or a combination of both.

When the changes came about, the option of providing evidence of monthly overseas transfers to a Thai bank was never added to the requirements for Non O applications.

 

[Liquorice]

1 hour ago, Finlaco said:

@Liquorice with a 'Marriage Visa', are you required to present your wife at Immigration for their initial 12-month permission to stay and subsequent extensions?

 

 

Yes, already answered by @DrJack54

It's an extension of your permission of stay, a permit, not a visa.

[sandyf]

16 hours ago, DrJack54 said:

OP, is UK so no embassy letter for income method.

He would need to show 12 month of transfers for first extension.

 

Don't bother to read what gets posted, do you.

[DrJack54]

2 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Don't bother to read what gets posted, do you.

Not when it's incorrect information. 

[Liquorice]

1 hour ago, bigt3116 said:

 

Do you know why the embassy letters stopped?

 

Yes, but a looooong story.
I'll send you a PM shortly.

[sandyf]

6 hours ago, Rob Browder said:

Yes, but they don't follow the rules - is the problem.   They did at first, but then changed to demanding you had must have been transferring money every month for a year before you got here. 

That doesn't change the rules. When I was challenged I very politely referred to the notice issued. There followed a quite prolonged and civilised conversation on the issue during which she quite poliely pointed out the difference between a first extension and the first extension on a different visa.

[statman78]

Here is my experience.  I am married to a Thai so I could have an extension based on marriage but I opted for retirement.  I entered on a tourist visa then obtained my non-o in Thailand.  I put 800,000 in the bank and applied for and received my retirement extension.  Retirement is less paperwork so in my opinion less work.  I then started bringing in 65,000 baht per month so that I would have 12 transfers for my next extension.  At the time there were no requirements to keep the 800,000 in the bank for a certain amount of time.  We used the money to buy some property.  I still use monthly transfers because there is no requirement for me to keep money in my bank account.

 

For my annual extension it takes a few hours to assemble the paperwork and then about 20 minutes at immigration since I am able to make an appointment.

[sandyf]

8 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

Not when it's incorrect information. 

There was no incorrect information, you were well aware of the exception stated in 0029.173/Wor 4950. As usual, just posted without thinking about what you read.

 

[DrJack54]

2 minutes ago, sandyf said:

There was no incorrect information, you were well aware of the exception stated in 0029.173/Wor 4950

I'm focusing on the OP.

He is from UK. No income letter available.

His income is from rents.

At this point in time he does not even have a Thai bank account.

The only way he can use income method for his first extension is to show 12 months transfers of 40k/65k 

[sandyf]

31 minutes ago, Liquorice said:

However, many expats weren't even aware of the changes until the early months of 2019. Immigration recognised this fact that UK, US, Aus expats using the income method would therefore not be able to provide 12 months evidence of transfers to a Thai bank, so issued an additional 'leniency' order for the 2019 period.

Immigration acknowledges that 12 months of transfers is difficult for those that have just arrived, but some on here would prefer not to.

Feel free to provide a link to the "exception" being rescinded.

[Liquorice]

1 hour ago, DrJack54 said:

Initially Thai immigration wanted the embassies to "verify" the income.

Of course that would be difficult.

Apart from that....the AU (to name one) was simply endorsing a "statutory declaration" 

I asked a senior Oz lady at AU embassy Bangkok about this.

Her reply for what it's worth...

"We never should have been supplying the SD" 

Explained that the statutory declarations are only valid for use in Australia. 

Just relating what I was told. Could be nonsense..

That information was correct.
Both the 'Stat Dec' and 'Affidavits' used by the Aus and US Embassies were always only valid and enforceable in their respective Countries.

For the UK Embassy letter proof of pension statements were supplied, but even that wasn't infallible.

 

Regarding 'verification', if Mr Somchai from the British Embassy contacted any of my pension providers to confirm my income, he'd be told where to go.
Under Data protection laws, personal information cannot be provided to third parties.

[sandyf]

2 minutes ago, DrJack54 said:

I'm focusing on the OP.

He is from UK. No income letter available.

His income is from rents.

At this point in time he does not even have a Thai bank account.

The only way he can use income method for his first extension is to show 12 months transfers of 40k/65k 

The post you replied to was referring to the "exception" granted under the Dec 2018 notice. The lack of reference to what I posted highlights the fact the post wasn't read and assumptions made.

 

From the last sentence you appear to be denying the "exception" exists, obviously you would have evidence it has been rescinded.

[Liquorice]

11 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Immigration acknowledges that 12 months of transfers is difficult for those that have just arrived, but some on here would prefer not to.

Feel free to provide a link to the "exception" being rescinded.

Although you weren't previously clear with what in particle you were referencing to, I assumed it was this little nugget from clause 2 of orders amending order 138/2557 regarding transfers of income to a Thai bank account. Correct me if I'm mistaken.

Quote

2) Evidence showing pension- a letter of certification on deposit in the bank in Thailand and bank statement showing money transfer from overseas every month for the past 12 months.

Except in a case where the applicant's retirement is less than 1 year, the evidence must be from the month of retirement. For example, the retirement is started in October 2018, the applicant must show pension payment evidence from November 2018 and pension payment evidence of the whole 12 months is required for the next year

Unless you had an existing Thai bank account in order to commence overseas transfers from the date of retirement, then you are not in compliance with that clause.

 

I previously dismissed your first post on the subject as the OP is only 58, not in receipt of a pension and does not have a Thai bank account.

If you were referencing something different, then please be clearer.

[Liquorice]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

The post you replied to was referring to the "exception" granted under the Dec 2018 notice. The lack of reference to what I posted highlights the fact the post wasn't read and assumptions made.

 

From the last sentence you appear to be denying the "exception" exists, obviously you would have evidence it has been rescinded.

 

Sorry, but IMO @DrJack54 dismissed your original post re the 'exception' as I did, as it wasn't applicable to the OP in this case.
He clearly stated his reasons, which you appear to dismiss.

 

1 hour ago, DrJack54 said:

I'm focusing on the OP.

He is from UK. No income letter available.

His income is from rents.

At this point in time he does not even have a Thai bank account.

The only way he can use income method for his first extension is to show 12 months transfers of 40k/65k 

 

If you know of a way to legally comply with this 'exception', when not having a Thai bank account and not in receipt of a pension, then please advise.

[trainman34014]

To each his own.  I've been on Marriage Extensions for 20 years and never had the slightest problem as we are well organised and everything is ready the day before we go in.   Bank Letter and Book Copy Pages are allowed from one day before application in Chiang Mai.    Usually in and out in around 60-90 minutes and the Officers remember us year after year.   Home visit only once on first application and when the Officers came to our home they sat outside at the front with a Coffee and filled in their paperwork whilst chatting jovially .

 

I can never understand the whiners complaining about all the 'extra work' needed when it's just a few more sheets of paper and a few photo's.   Not exactly a Brain Strain or Rocket Science !