Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[stat]

On 12/30/2024 at 2:07 PM, KhunHeineken said:

Going by you 10% figure, customers would be wasting the agent's time, so not point doing it to that degree. 

Thais have a lot of time on their hand so they do not really care about time as we westerners. All they care about is getting a commission.

[stat]

On 12/30/2024 at 1:44 PM, jayboy said:

 

What would you consider to be a reasonable all in fee for getting a TIN and arranging filing on behalf of an expatriate - assuming there are no particular complications? I'd say Bt 10,000 first year and Bt 7000 thereafter.

Reasonable would be zero as the gov wants to collect taxes, however most agents want 10K, one wanted 5K and ripped me off and provided nada.

[KhunHeineken]

47 minutes ago, stat said:

Thais have a lot of time on their hand so they do not really care about time as we westerners. All they care about is getting a commission.

I disagree that 90% of the listings are not actually for sale.  Simple as that. 

[oldcpu]

6 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I disagree that 90% of the listings are not actually for sale.  Simple as that. 

I tend to agree that 90% may be an exaggeration.

 

My experience in 2016 when condo hunting ( researching many dozens of places) was that 1 out of 3 places were not on the market ( and were inappropriately listed) and 2 out of 3 were validly listed on the market.

 

But that was 2016. This is almost 2025. Have things changed that much since 2016? I don't know. I tend to speculate little has changed.

[stat]

20 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I disagree that 90% of the listings are not actually for sale.  Simple as that. 

I was looking for rentals would not know about sales. For rentals it was even more then 90% that were duds. When asking on the phone they would instantly tell me "no longer available" so they knew right away.

[UKresonant]

17 hours ago, offset said:

I am a little confused to what is going to be taxable in Thailand

 

Is it money brought into Thailand or only taxable income in the UK

 

And any interest received on savings from before 2023 is not viewed as taxable in Thailand

Confusion still prevails, as lack of certainty in respect to  TRD's actiial custom and practice, for the tax filing season in the next 3 months.

 

Taxable income from the UK,  generated whilst you were tax resident in Thailand, is potentially taxable for the proportion brought into Thailand;- in the same year pre 2023, any time from 2024 onwards ( but with por 162 exemption for pre 2024, remitted later.

 

Any interest, post 2023,  from pre 2023 savings, is taxable, for a Thai Tax resident, when it is remitted to Thailand, 2024 on.

 

Very simplified answer, to a very simplified question, and also generalised. ( remembering  capital gains are taxed as income in Thailand etc etc)

 

Read the guide....but every thing is a probability, rather than an absolute me thinks. Actual reports soon maybe.

[UKresonant]

Nearly forgot;-

 

HAPPY NEW (Tax) YEAR! 

 

[aldriglikvid]

In the first nine months of the year, foreigners acquired condominiums in Thailand for a total of 51 billion Thai baht, with an average unit price of approximately 4.6 million baht. Foreign buyers account for 20-25% of the total condominium purchase volume nationwide, making them a significant—arguably essential—group for sustaining the overall market.
 

While discussing these statistics, the minister reiterated that the relaxation of ownership quota rules is under consideration, emphasizing their intention to attract increased foreign investment into the Thai real estate market.
 

As you’re all aware, every condominium purchase requires an international FX transfer document to be presented at the land office. It is estimated that 70-80 billion Thai baht will flow into Thailand through such transactions in 2024 alone.
 

For those who believe in "realpolitik," one might argue that it will not only be administratively cumbersome to audit these buyers, determine whether they are tax residents, and calculate their tax liabilities for these transfers but also counterproductive to the government's goal of encouraging foreign investment. 

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, aldriglikvid said:

In the first nine months of the year, foreigners acquired condominiums in Thailand for a total of 51 billion Thai baht, with an average unit price of approximately 4.6 million baht. Foreign buyers account for 20-25% of the total condominium purchase volume nationwide, making them a significant—arguably essential—group for sustaining the overall market.
 

While discussing these statistics, the minister reiterated that the relaxation of ownership quota rules is under consideration, emphasizing their intention to attract increased foreign investment into the Thai real estate market.
 

As you’re all aware, every condominium purchase requires an international FX transfer document to be presented at the land office. It is estimated that 70-80 billion Thai baht will flow into Thailand through such transactions in 2024 alone.
 

For those who believe in "realpolitik," one might argue that it will not only be administratively cumbersome to audit these buyers, determine whether they are tax residents, and calculate their tax liabilities for these transfers but also counterproductive to the government's goal of encouraging foreign investment. 

 

51 billion ÷ 4.6 million = 11,087 units bought by foreigners.

I was surprised to read of so many condos being purchased by foreigners. I would have speculated 1/3 that number.

[KhunHeineken]

5 hours ago, aldriglikvid said:

In the first nine months of the year, foreigners acquired condominiums in Thailand for a total of 51 billion Thai baht, with an average unit price of approximately 4.6 million baht. Foreign buyers account for 20-25% of the total condominium purchase volume nationwide, making them a significant—arguably essential—group for sustaining the overall market.
 

While discussing these statistics, the minister reiterated that the relaxation of ownership quota rules is under consideration, emphasizing their intention to attract increased foreign investment into the Thai real estate market.
 

As you’re all aware, every condominium purchase requires an international FX transfer document to be presented at the land office. It is estimated that 70-80 billion Thai baht will flow into Thailand through such transactions in 2024 alone.
 

For those who believe in "realpolitik," one might argue that it will not only be administratively cumbersome to audit these buyers, determine whether they are tax residents, and calculate their tax liabilities for these transfers but also counterproductive to the government's goal of encouraging foreign investment. 

It sounds like you have quoted 2023 information / stats for 2024.  Can you post the link where you got these figures from? 

 

I predict there will be a slump in property sales in 2025, as many prospective buyers, particularly those recently retired and wishing to relocate to Thailand, sit back and wait to see how this remittance tax unfolds, no matter what the Thai government says about foreign ownership of property laws.  Does it really matter if foreigners can own 60% of condo's in a block as compared to 49%?   

 

I see you have put forward "the Thai's would never do that because they would lose too much money" and "the Thai's don't have the infrastructure in place to implement this policy" argument. 

 

I said from Day 1 they must have something up their sleeve, however big, or small, we are yet to see, however, if I was considering buying a property in Thailand, I would be holding off, at least to the second half of 2025. 

[KhunHeineken]

19 hours ago, stat said:

I was looking for rentals would not know about sales. For rentals it was even more then 90% that were duds. When asking on the phone they would instantly tell me "no longer available" so they knew right away.

Rent per month isn't really going to rack up a significant tax bill, but moving a larger sum of money to Thailand to buy a property may do, so of course I was talking about sales, not rentals. 

[chiang mai]

4 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

51 billion ÷ 4.6 million = 11,087 units bought by foreigners.

I was surprised to read of so many condos being purchased by foreigners. I would have speculated 1/3 that number.

 

Chinese buyers by a massive margin, followed by Russia:

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1364907/thailand-number-of-condos-sold-to-foreigners-by-country-of-origin/

 

[aldriglikvid]

15 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

It sounds like you have quoted 2023 information / stats for 2024.  Can you post the link where you got these figures from? 

 

I predict there will be a slump in property sales in 2025, as many prospective buyers, particularly those recently retired and wishing to relocate to Thailand, sit back and wait to see how this remittance tax unfolds, no matter what the Thai government says about foreign ownership of property laws.  Does it really matter if foreigners can own 60% of condo's in a block as compared to 49%?   

 

I see you have put forward "the Thai's would never do that because they would lose too much money" and "the Thai's don't have the infrastructure in place to implement this policy" argument. 

 

I said from Day 1 they must have something up their sleeve, however big, or small, we are yet to see, however, if I was considering buying a property in Thailand, I would be holding off, at least to the second half of 2025. 

What makes you say I've quoted 2023 information? This is 2024 9M (Jan-Sep) as explicitly stated in my text. 

I don't understand why have to be condescending to my "argument". Nevertheless, yes - it's my best and current opinion that - at this moment - Thailand will not conduct a tax offensive on foreigners in Thailand. It's my best and current opinion, at this moment, that the law will be used to catch the big fish that transfers +20m up annually (thais & foreigners) and/or a law that will be used whenever they want it to be used: as with minority shareholders in "companies" that own houses and normal businesses. Which is not allowed by the law, but goes around everywhere to everyones knowledge. However, when the police or the government want to oust someone - they cancel and confiscate said "company". 

5 or 10 years out, perhaps something more efficient and far better communicated to residents and long term tourists. 

Judging by your language, your on the opposite side of this take I supposed? 

 

Well, I'm only quoting the minister about the 49% or 60% ownership - so I'll not engage in an argument there. 

[KhunHeineken]

4 minutes ago, aldriglikvid said:

What makes you say I've quoted 2023 information? This is 2024 9M (Jan-Sep) as explicitly stated in my text. 

I don't understand why have to be condescending to my "argument". Nevertheless, yes - it's my best and current opinion that - at this moment - Thailand will not conduct a tax offensive on foreigners in Thailand. It's my best and current opinion, at this moment, that the law will be used to catch the big fish that transfers +20m up annually (thais & foreigners) and/or a law that will be used whenever they want it to be used: as with minority shareholders in "companies" that own houses and normal businesses. Which is not allowed by the law, but goes around everywhere to everyones knowledge. However, when the police or the government want to oust someone - they cancel and confiscate said "company". 

5 or 10 years out, perhaps something more efficient and far better communicated to residents and long term tourists. 

Judging by your language, your on the opposite side of this take I supposed? 

 

Well, I'm only quoting the minister about the 49% or 60% ownership - so I'll not engage in an argument there. 

Now that the tax policy is more widely known, I predict it will have an impact on 2025 sales.  Just my opinion. 

 

Can you post a link where you got these figures from? 

 

I was not being condescending.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion.  I just happen to disagree with yours as to why this tax policy may fade away. 

 

I certainly agree with you about Thai nominees being used to purchase property.  That time bomb is still ticking.  It will go off one day, and not just for an individual, but collectively.  

 

Yes, I am on the opposite side.  Where's there's smoke there's fire, and I have never know the Thai's to walk away from an easy baht. 

 

I've said before, for most, all this tax policy may mean is paying 500 baht for a Certificate of Clearance from the TRD come extension time.  Just like the Certificate of Residence is free, but most pay 300 baht for it.  Just an earner for the TRD, like immigration do.

 

We don't know at this stage how it will unfold, but there's foreign cash cows there to be milked all over Thailand, and I just can't see that ZERO will happen. 

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

Now that the tax policy is more widely known, I predict it will have an impact on 2025 sales.  Just my opinion. 

 

Can you post a link where you got these figures from? 

 

I was not being condescending.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion.  I just happen to disagree with yours as to why this tax policy may fade away. 

 

I certainly agree with you about Thai nominees being used to purchase property.  That time bomb is still ticking.  It will go off one day, and not just for an individual, but collectively.  

 

Yes, I am on the opposite side.  Where's there's smoke there's fire, and I have never know the Thai's to walk away from an easy baht. 

 

I've said before, for most, all this tax policy may mean is paying 500 baht for a Certificate of Clearance from the TRD come extension time.  Just like the Certificate of Residence is free, but most pay 300 baht for it.  Just an earner for the TRD, like immigration do.

 

We don't know at this stage how it will unfold, but there's foreign cash cows there to be milked all over Thailand, and I just can't see that ZERO will happen. 

Not only do you not understand real estate agents in Thailand, you do not understand the property market either! Condo sales in Thailand are dominated by the Chinese who purchased over 6.5 k units, followed by the Russians at 1.3k....the closest Western buyers were in the low hundreds. Meanwhile, some real estate agents say they have over 55k units for sale !

 

https://www.ddproperty.com/en/condo-for-sale

[aldriglikvid]

9 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Now that the tax policy is more widely known, I predict it will have an impact on 2025 sales.  Just my opinion. 

 

Can you post a link where you got these figures from? 

 

I was not being condescending.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion.  I just happen to disagree with yours as to why this tax policy may fade away. 

 

I certainly agree with you about Thai nominees being used to purchase property.  That time bomb is still ticking.  It will go off one day, and not just for an individual, but collectively.  

 

Yes, I am on the opposite side.  Where's there's smoke there's fire, and I have never know the Thai's to walk away from an easy baht. 

 

I've said before, for most, all this tax policy may mean is paying 500 baht for a Certificate of Clearance from the TRD come extension time.  Just like the Certificate of Residence is free, but most pay 300 baht for it.  Just an earner for the TRD, like immigration do.

 

We don't know at this stage how it will unfold, but there's foreign cash cows there to be milked all over Thailand, and I just can't see that ZERO will happen. 

Do you have some reading disability of sorts? You're essentially rehashing several of my points. 

[bkk6060]

50 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

predict there will be a slump in property sales in 2025, as many prospective buyers, particularly those recently retired and wishing to relocate to Thailand, sit back and wait to see how this remittance tax unfolds, no matter what the Thai government says about foreign ownership of property laws.  

No it won't cuz my guess is Chinese and Russians either have no idea, or just will refuse to pay taxes.  Good luck if the government thinks they will.

[KhunHeineken]

10 minutes ago, bkk6060 said:

No it won't cuz my guess is Chinese and Russians either have no idea, or just will refuse to pay taxes.  Good luck if the government thinks they will.

I guess this guy was just unlucky. 

 

https://www.khaosodenglish.com/news/2024/02/22/chonburi-police-arrest-3-chinese-nationals-in-two-criminal-cases/

[anrcaccount]

6 hours ago, aldriglikvid said:

In the first nine months of the year, foreigners acquired condominiums in Thailand for a total of 51 billion Thai baht, with an average unit price of approximately 4.6 million baht. Foreign buyers account for 20-25% of the total condominium purchase volume nationwide, making them a significant—arguably essential—group for sustaining the overall market.
 

While discussing these statistics, the minister reiterated that the relaxation of ownership quota rules is under consideration, emphasizing their intention to attract increased foreign investment into the Thai real estate market.
 

As you’re all aware, every condominium purchase requires an international FX transfer document to be presented at the land office. It is estimated that 70-80 billion Thai baht will flow into Thailand through such transactions in 2024 alone.
 

For those who believe in "realpolitik," one might argue that it will not only be administratively cumbersome to audit these buyers, determine whether they are tax residents, and calculate their tax liabilities for these transfers but also counterproductive to the government's goal of encouraging foreign investment. 

 

Very well said. The first time anyone actually pays PI tax on top of a real estate purchase due to a foreign remittance -  it'll be all over the news.

 

IMO resulting in an immediate backpedal.

 

Many real estate purchases are funded by the sale of real estate, which if remitted, technically liable for capital gains tax. 

 

IMO absurd, to think this will be applied. 

 

Condos are one thing, think of a luxury villa, easily 30-50m THB in some regions, tax on top of that would be an absolute deal breaker. 

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

23 minutes ago, aldriglikvid said:

Do you have some reading disability of sorts? You're essentially rehashing several of my points. 

Is English your first language?

 

Why would anyone rehash your rubbish? 

[KhunHeineken]

1 minute ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Very well said. The first time anyone actually pays PI tax on top of a real estate purchase due to a foreign remittance -  it'll be all over the news.

 

IMO resulting in an immediate backpedal.

 

Many real estate purchases are funded by the sale of real estate, which if remitted, technically liable for capital gains tax. 

 

IMO absurd, to think this will be applied. 

 

Condos are one thing, think of a luxury villa, easily 30-50m THB in some regions, tax on top of that would be an absolute deal breaker. 

 

 

Or, it attracts only the more wealthy, and over the coming years, the poorer farang are weeded out.

 

Think about it.   

[aldriglikvid]

4 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Or, it attracts only the more wealthy, and over the coming years, the poorer farang are weeded out.

 

Think about it.   

Since the law has been in place for a long time now, and you strongly believe 2025 (i.e. today) will be the year of first rigid enforcement, when will the tax agents start to sending out the deferred tax liabilities? 

Is it your opinion that a progressive income tax on international remittances, on top of the stamp/transfer tax on the unit, will attract "more wealthy"? Are we even having a serious conversation here?  

[KhunHeineken]

35 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

Not only do you not understand real estate agents in Thailand, you do not understand the property market either! Condo sales in Thailand are dominated by the Chinese who purchased over 6.5 k units, followed by the Russians at 1.3k....the closest Western buyers were in the low hundreds. Meanwhile, some real estate agents say they have over 55k units for sale !

 

https://www.ddproperty.com/en/condo-for-sale

Who cares where the buyers come from?  Why is that relevant?  Or, are you suggesting Chinese and Russians are exempt from tax on remitted funds?

 

The simple fact is, if a property was say 5 million baht before this tax, you paid 5 million baht for it, exchange fees aside. Now, you still pay 5 million baht for it, but at the end of Thailand's financial year, you MAY be have to pay tax on the 5 million baht you sent to Thailand to buy the property, thus, making the property more expensive.  

 

I gave the same example for a car purchase, and a major medical operation some time ago.  They both MAY become more expensive because the larger remittance to Thailand MAY be taxed the following year.    

 

In my opinion, people with knowledge of this tax, who are considering buying, may hold off in 2025 to see what unfolds. 

 

You are entitled to disagree with my opinion, but it's my opinion never the less.   

[KhunHeineken]

4 minutes ago, aldriglikvid said:

Since the law has been in place for a long time now, and you strongly believe 2025 (i.e. today) will be the year of first rigid enforcement, when will the tax agents start to sending out the deferred tax liabilities? 

Please show me where I used the words, or even suggested "rigid enforcement."  You are misquoting me.

 

I was the one who put forward all this may be is an earner from the TRD for a Certificate of  Clearance for say 500 baht, like the Certificate of Residence.  Anything could happen.  We don't know at this stage. 

 

I have said that if someone was considering buying a property in Thailand, they may be best to hold off for a while to see if this tax is "rigidly enforced" or ends up a joke.  For me, that would be just part of due diligence. 

 

5 minutes ago, aldriglikvid said:

Is it your opinion that a progressive income tax on international remittances, on top of the stamp/transfer tax on the unit, will attract "more wealthy"? Are we even having a serious conversation here?  

If this tax is enforced, can't you see it may knock a few out of the game here?  There's already foreigners living in places like Cambodia for example, because it more affordable.  

 

If enforced, this tax makes living in Thailand more expensive for many.  Do you agree or disagree, and note I said more expensive, not unaffordable, and more expensive means even 1 baht more expensive, which shows collection and enforcement will be in place. 

 

I've said for some time now that the day is coming the 800k / 400k / 65k will increase.  It's been at these levels for decades.  That would also knock a few out of the game, but that left for another thread. 

 

Basically, by raising the cost of being allowed to live in Thailand, you attract people with more money.  Right? 

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Who cares where the buyers come from?  Why is that relevant?  Or, are you suggesting Chinese and Russians are exempt from tax on remitted funds?

 

 

You wrote:

 

"I predict there will be a slump in property sales in 2025, as many prospective buyers, particularly those recently retired and wishing to relocate to Thailand, sit back and wait to see how this remittance tax unfolds",

 

The combined population of China and Russia is over 1.5 billion people, almost 19% of the global population. Both countries are at the top of the condo purchasing league tables here, despite both countries association with tourism here being embryonic.....the only for those numbers is up.

 

Meanwhile, you think the market will slump, as a result of a Thai tax rule tweak, despite the tax rules in China being nearly identical to those in Thailand and despite less than 2% of Chinese people paying income tax!

 

What I think is that you think that the Thai condo market is dominated by people from Western countries and who think the same way that you do.....they aren't and they don't.

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I have said that if someone was considering buying a property in Thailand, they may be best to hold off for a while to see if this tax is "rigidly enforced" or ends up a joke.  For me, that would be just part of due diligence. 

 

If this tax is enforced, can't you see it may knock a few out of the game here?  There's already foreigners living in places like Cambodia for example, because it more affordable.  

 

If enforced, this tax makes living in Thailand more expensive for many.  

 

I've said for some time now that the day is coming the 800k / 400k / 65k will increase.  It's been at these levels for decades.  That would also knock a few out of the game, but that left for another thread. 

 

 

 More scaremongering to add to the long list of scaremongering from you previously.

[KhunHeineken]

10 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

 

You wrote:

 

"I predict there will be a slump in property sales in 2025, as many prospective buyers, particularly those recently retired and wishing to relocate to Thailand, sit back and wait to see how this remittance tax unfolds",

 

The combined population of China and Russia is over 1.5 billion people, almost 19% of the global population. Both countries are at the top of the condo purchasing league tables here, despite both countries association with tourism here being embryonic.....the only for those numbers is up.

 

Meanwhile, you think the market will slump, as a result of a Thai tax rule tweak, despite the tax rules in China being nearly identical to those in Thailand and despite less than 2% of Chinese people paying income tax!

 

What I think is that you think that the Thai condo market is dominated by people from Western countries and who think the same way that you do.....they aren't and they don't.

What you think is fine, and you are entitled to think what you want.  I simply disagree.   

 

I have put forward my opinion and I stand by it. 

 

 

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

What you think is fine, and you are entitled to think what you want.  I simply disagree.   

 

I have put forward my opinion and I stand by it. 

 

 

It's fine having an opinion and yes, you are entitled to it, but any opinion needs to be supported by logic and fact and not fly in the face of current data.

[KhunHeineken]

10 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

 More scaremongering to add to the long list of scaremongering from you previously.

What is it with you and calling out every post from everyone as "scaremongering" just because they disagree with you. 

 

It's my opinion, I've posted it, as  am entitled to do so.  You don't have to agree with it, and I am happy to debate it, but it's certainly not scaremongering. 

 

Tax is just another bill to pay, and many may like to sit back and see if that bill is actually going to be attached to the money they remit to buy a property, or, all of this tax policy fades away and they happily remit and buy.

 

I have suggested many may hold off, not walk away. 

[chiang mai]

2 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

What is it with you and calling out every post from everyone as "scaremongering" just because they disagree with you. 

 

It's my opinion, I've posted it, as  am entitled to do so.  You don't have to agree with it, and I am happy to debate it, but it's certainly not scaremongering. 

 

Only your posts, because that's all you do, try to scare people with statements that can't be substantiated or supported.