Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[ConcernedBrit]

On 5/29/2024 at 11:16 PM, Mike Lister said:

Perhaps about time to get back to basics and remember what all the kerfuffle is about!

 

Previously, anyone earning income overseas and remitting it to Thailand, whilst they were tax resident here, had to wait until the following year in order to escape Thai tax on that income.

 

Now, it doesn't matter when the money is remitted, the same year, the next year or five years later, it becomes taxable whenever it is remitted.

 

Previously, remitted savings were never taxable, exempt income was never taxable and income covered by a  DTA, was not taxable in Thailand....those things haven't changed.

 

Previously, income that was taxed overseas could be remitted to Thailand and the DTA invoked. That meant that the tax already paid overseas, could be used  to offset any Thai tax and the average net taxation effect would be very similar, in most cases. That hasn't changed.

 

Previously, foreigners who were tax resident in Thailand and who had even fairly low levels of assessable income, were always required to file a Thai tax return. That hasn't changed.

 

Previously, foreign tax residents with no assessable income in Thailand, are not required to file a Thai tax return. That hasn't changed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've been following this thread and I just signed up (more on me and my/our situation below, if anybody cares) to question a couple of points in the quote above:

 

1. "Previously, remitted savings were never taxable, exempt income was never taxable and income covered by a  DTA, was not taxable in Thailand....those things haven't changed."

Ok, definitions required here I think. When does income become savings?

To me (gifts aside) savings come from excess income - so any income that is not required to cover bills in the period it is earned (say, monthly, if paid on a monthly basis) would become savings. Or perhaps annnually, when a tax return is submitted. In that sense, the previous Thai rule worked.

 

Taken at face value, the Thai tax people's new definition would mean that essentially any funds that existed prior to Jan 1 2024 would be treated as savings and all else would be income. That would be quite bizarre. Effectively you'd get a free pass on anything that existed across all your bank and investment balances prior to 1/1/24 but perhaps only as long as you could prove it.

 

2. "Previously, foreign tax residents with no assessable income in Thailand, are not required to file a Thai tax return."

Well, the problem there is knowing for sure what is assessable. And keeping evidence to prove that what is remitted is not "assessable" or is within allowances. Ugh.

Tax authorities often try to create uncertainty and hope that people will cough up cash to sleep at night (e.g. IR35 legislation in the UK). For that, folks would "over declare" rather than under-do it and perhaps just pay whatever is assessed for an easy life (that is what they hope, I'm not saying it's right).

 

Overall key point

Money is a fungible resource. For example, if you were to tell me that you can't pay your energy bill this month and you need £1... so I lend it to you and then tomorrow I see you eating an ice cream that costs £1, then I might be tempted to say "Hey! How can you be eating that when you needed my £1 for energy?". You might say that you didn't buy it with my £1 but with one of your own £s, but that doesn't hold water - since money is fungible i.e. I can't tell which exact £1 you used, all that matters is the overall picture which is that my £1 created an excess of funds allowing you to buy that ice cream. So I'm entitled to be a little miffed.

 

Silly example, but it makes the point - the exact £s or $s that come into the country don't matter, it's the overall picture as at 1/1/24 that matters. If you had £1million in savings at that point then you will have £1million of tax free remittables from now onwards. Or - a new arrival will have whatever they had prior to becoming resident in Thailand (as long as they can prove it). What this adds up to is that if you are still working then everything from then on will be treated as income, therefore assessable.

 

My/our situation

My wife and I were thinking of moving to Thailand. She recently went there and loved it. We've become increasingly concerned over the migrant situation in the UK and wanted to get out while we still could, before Sharia law is imposed within our lifetimes.

 

However, this Thai tax situation has made us think twice. It's not the individual issue, it's the realisation that we would be at the behest of every daft thing any government present or future could decide to throw at us (including the series of daft governments we've had in the UK for the last 30 years or so). And going back to the UK would be very difficult later in life, if it were even desirable at all. So in the end, we will probably find a remote place in the UK that will hopefully be safe in our lifetimes.

[CharlesHolzhauer]

20 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

Anyone have 1 Billion baht per year or more in income? If so, then you may have to pay taxes on your overseas income according to this article.

This amount may trickle down considerably. Point is the government is cash strapped THB1B may just be the beginning...

[Foxx]

43 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

Anyone have 1 Billion baht per year or more in income? If so, then you may have to pay taxes on your overseas income according to this article.

 

That's a misreading of the (admittedly poorly written) article.  That amount refers to corporations - two paragraphs about corporations in the middle of an article about personal income tax.

[andre47]

23 minutes ago, Foxx said:

 

That's a misreading of the (admittedly poorly written) article.  That amount refers to corporations - two paragraphs about corporations in the middle of an article about personal income tax.

Correct, the article is not to be understood clearly.

What does the word "platform" mean? If companies are meant, they have always had to declare all types of income in their balance sheets, haven't they?
 

But the crucial point is that the tax system in Thailand is now being turned completely on its head. If these changes are realised, it will completely change the expat scene here.

[SiamAndy]

Regardless of the poor wording, the intent is clear, this will be a big money grab by the current Thai administration at the expense of Expats who are Tax Residents of Thailand. The Baht threshold can always be changed by this administration at their whim and they will do it at some point.

 

 

[ElwoodP]

Please remember links to Bangkok Post are not allowed. Link and 2 posts quoting link removed.

[Foxx]

37 minutes ago, andre47 said:

What does the word "platform" mean? If companies are meant, they have always had to declare all types of income in their balance sheets, haven't they?

 

I suspect it's related to this:

https://www.nationthailand.com/business/economy/40038550

[Dogmatix]

The Nation refers to a legal amendment to the Revenue Code that was decided at a cabinet meeting on 27 May to try to enforce the OECD standard of a minimum of 15% tax on multinationals. This means that tax authorities can assess tax on earnings booked in overseas subsidiaries by transfer pricing to avoid tax in their jurisdiction and that tax authorities on parent companies can impose a balancing tax to make the overall tax rate at least 15%.  In addition it is a problem for BOI corporate income tax exemptions, long considered as dumping by foreign governments, as they will have to be scrapped. 

 

The Post and the Thaiger have both published the same story with the same gaping error in it conflating this proposed tax amendment with another one to introduce global taxation for individual taxpayers. Perhaps there was a separate announcement that the RD will be attempting to introduce global taxation in the same amendment bill or another one.  I have been unable to locate a Thai language source to corroborate the part of the story about global PIT, although the RD made clear this was its ultimate intention when P. 161/2566was announced last year.  There are Thai sources corroborating the story about global corporate income tax.  It is possible that the RD will attempt to introduce global PIT at the same time.\ but both will require proper amendments to the RC involving 3 readings in parliament.  I would expect a move toward full global taxation to be considered major news and to be reported in Thai language media.

[Dogmatix]

if and when global taxation is legislated by Thailand, it will torpedo the LTR tax exemption from remittance tax which will be made irrelevant, since there would no longer be a remittance tax.  The best they could hope for in compensation is a 17% flat tax which the government is offering on some of its new long stay visas and applies to some LTR visa types in respect of Thai source income. The 

Srettha government is coming out with its own visas and is not going to feel any concern for the relatively small numbers who have bought into the Prayut government's LTR visa scheme.  Anyway offering anyone a total exemption from income tax is unlikely, as the RD would argue it goes against the concepts of the OECD which the Srettha government wants to apply for membership of.  The BOI which administers LTR is already being forced into a corner to scrap BOI corporate tax privileges, which are frowned on by the OECD, as the RD prepares the legislation to tighten up on global corporate tax.

[stat]

I recommend to google the following term "New overseas income rules" for an article that claims that ALL income (not just remitted!)will be taxed according to the head of TRD pending a law change.

So basically everything is now possible regarding income taxation. Even a ww taxation of funds that have not been remitted to Thailand. However I still suspect they will cancel or postpone the application of this change of law but who I am to know Thai politics.

Pls google

"New overseas income rules"

[nebuer]

1 hour ago, Dogmatix said:

The Nation refers to a legal amendment to the Revenue Code that was decided at a cabinet meeting on 27 May to try to enforce the OECD standard of a minimum of 15% tax on multinationals. This means that tax authorities can assess tax on earnings booked in overseas subsidiaries by transfer pricing to avoid tax in their jurisdiction and that tax authorities on parent companies can impose a balancing tax to make the overall tax rate at least 15%.  In addition it is a problem for BOI corporate income tax exemptions, long considered as dumping by foreign governments, as they will have to be scrapped. 

 

The Post and the Thaiger have both published the same story with the same gaping error in it conflating this proposed tax amendment with another one to introduce global taxation for individual taxpayers. Perhaps there was a separate announcement that the RD will be attempting to introduce global taxation in the same amendment bill or another one.  I have been unable to locate a Thai language source to corroborate the part of the story about global PIT, although the RD made clear this was its ultimate intention when P. 161/2566was announced last year.  There are Thai sources corroborating the story about global corporate income tax.  It is possible that the RD will attempt to introduce global PIT at the same time.\ but both will require proper amendments to the RC involving 3 readings in parliament.  I would expect a move toward full global taxation to be considered major news and to be reported in Thai language media.

 

There's a brief reference in Thai media here: https://aec10news.com/contents/news/national/254083/

 

Quote

เล็งเก็บภาษีคนไทยที่มีรายได้จากตปท. :

นางสาวกุลยา ตันติเตมิท อธิบดีกรมสรรพากร เปิดเผยว่า กรมฯ มีแผนที่จัดเก็บภาษีคนไทยที่มีรายได้จากต่างประเทศ แม้ไม่ได้นำเงินก้อนนั้นเข้ามาในประเทศก็ตาม ทั้งนี้ กฎหมายภาษีของกรมสรรพากรในปัจจุบัน กำหนดว่า หากบุคคลที่อยู่ในประเทศไทยเกิน 180 วัน จะต้องเสียภาษีให้กับประเทศไทย กรณีที่บุคคลนั้น มีเงินได้จากต่างประเทศด้วยตามกฎหมายในปัจจุบัน หากนำเงินได้ก้อนนั้นเข้ามาในประเทศจะต้องเสียภาษีเงินได้บุคคลธรรมดาให้กับกรมสรรพากร ขณะนี้กำลังอยู่ในระหว่างการแก้ไขกฎหมาย โดยอาศัยหลักการของ World Wide Income หรือหลักการการจัดเก็บภาษีตามแหล่งที่อยู่บุคคล (Resident) ในประเทศนั้นๆ ไม่ว่ารายได้นั้น จะมาจากในประเทศหรือนอกประเทศ ถือเป็นรายได้ของบุคคลคนนั้น 

 

[stat]

3 hours ago, Foxx said:

 

I suspect it's related to this:

https://www.nationthailand.com/business/economy/40038550

I understand the 1 Billion baht number as that for example Ebay has to report to the TRD the amount Somchai has made selling stuff on Ebay as Ebay has more then 1 Billion THB revenue. The 1 Billion is not directly connected to personal income tax .

[marino28]

Anyway even if they are going to go in this way. 
 

I believe cannot be retroactive so maybe they can implement it from 2025 or after but not 2024.

i am correct ? 
 

thanks 

[andre47]

4 minutes ago, marino28 said:

Anyway even if they are going to go in this way. 
 

I believe cannot be retroactive so maybe they can implement it from 2025 or after but not 2024.

i am correct ? 
 

thanks 

sure not this year...perhaps from 01.01.2025

anyway, very bad news...

[stat]

38 minutes ago, marino28 said:

Anyway even if they are going to go in this way. 
 

I believe cannot be retroactive so maybe they can implement it from 2025 or after but not 2024.

i am correct ? 
 

thanks 

Sure they can, however I think highly unlikely but I assume anything is possible now. Especially as it is not 180 days plus currently in the year 2024 so they could argue that is not retroactive or that it is just a new interpretation of an existing law (happened several times in Germany that the interpretation of a law changed and was applied retroactively).

 

But maybe a translation error of the newspaper, overstepping of TRD chief etc. No one knows, all I am saying is be prepared for the worst in case you have some serious money on the line. Preparing for the worst means do not stay over 180 days in Thailand, if you are not prepared to pay Thai income tax on your ww income.

[JimGant]

2 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

I would expect a move toward full global taxation to be considered major news

Stay tuned. Getting away from the remittance screwiness will allow CRS and FATCA reporting (which only reports on income, not remittances) to allow TRD to have a first hand look at potential taxable income, which isn't the case, when all remittances need to be parsed as to whether or not assessable or non assessable income. Limited TRD resources will now be better used towards more productivity.

 

This remittance thingy came about, with the " bring it in next year" clause as a means of tax evasion. That's now gone. The remittance thingy no longer serves a purpose -- and its demise would bring in additional tax revenue. No brainer, as its existence no longer provides Thai fat cats that tax evasion avenue they once had.

 

Obviously, there will be individual scenarios that show the new scheme's affect on taxation. I guess, if you've somehow been able to hold off your offshore income from remittance to Thailand -- you'll now be in for a hit. Most of us, I guess, will be a notch or two down from that scenario. What that means in a new tax hit -- remains to be seen.

[martinafr]

Next step could be to change the 180 days to 90 days and then the transformation is completed...

For example If someone earns 100.000€ and pays tax in Germany. The person can easy pay another 5-7k € in Thailand on top after tax credit via DTA.

[Dogmatix]

3 hours ago, stat said:

I understand the 1 Billion baht number as that for example Ebay has to report to the TRD the amount Somchai has made selling stuff on Ebay as Ebay has more then 1 Billion THB revenue. The 1 Billion is not directly connected to personal income tax .

Right. The billion baht platform comment refers to multinationals that the RD will target to pay their fair share of tax on revenue earned in Thailand, following the OECD's minimum of 15% corporate tax initiative. Ebay is not a good one to target because the sellers are not multinationals even if they sell multinationally.  Amazon would be better, as it sells as a principle and the sales contracts are I believe with Amazon, even though supplied by a third party seller.  Then of course there are the services suppliers like Netflicks and Facebook who have been pursued for tax by the EU.  In addition there are multinationals with a presence in Thailand that may import products or components to Thailand via lower tax countries and overstate costs to Thailand to reduce tax bills in Thailand. Finally it can be applied to Thai multinationals that are saving tax in the same way and can be charged top up tax in Thailand, as can happen to EU multinationals in their EU HQ countries. 

[marino28]

I don’t know if I can post the link, but I just read in another place about this plane to tax everything abroad from 2025.

 

 

[Dogmatix]

I think we can assume that there were two press releases that were posted together in some source listing a number of items of news from the finance ministry: 1) following up on the cabinet resolution on 27 May to amend the RC pursuant to the OECD minimum tax of 15% tax for MNCs; and 2) from the RD and 2) that the RD is going ahead with the plan to amend the RC to introduce global taxation announced alongside the reinterpretation last year. That was mentioned in various sources including Pracharat Thurakit https://www.prachachat.net/finance/news-1432180?fbclid=I  

 

The relevant part of the Pracharat article is at the time that order P. 162/2566 was issued is roughly translated thus:

However, recently there was a report from the Revenue Department that It has been concluded that In the first phase, there will be relief in the case of income generated abroad before 2024, if it is not imported within the same tax year as the year in which the income was generated. It will not have to be checked. Because finding document evidence will be difficult. It is considered to be releasing the ghost. “Income generated before 2024 will use the old rules. That is, if it is not imported in the same tax year. The department will not collect it. As for imports across the year, they are no longer collected according to the original criteria. But income generated abroad from January 1, 2024 onwards, imported at any time will be subject to tax. In the future, Section 41 of the Revenue Code will be amended to immediately calculate tax in the year in which income is earned abroad,regardless of whether money is brought into the country or not, however, amending the law may take 1-2 years.

 

The Post may now be using AI to translate and summarise Thai news stories which would be a problem for farang subeditors who have no clue what the original stories meant.  Either the Post must have used the flawed Thaiger article as its source for AI paraphrasing or vice versa.  I leave that to your imagination.

 

The implications are somewhat scary.  Expats and Thais with investments overseas are in the middle of grappling with very unclear rules regarding last year's reinterpretation. Now another spanner is potentially being thrown into the works, if the RD is now pushing ahead with the final phase of global taxation.  It would help taxpayers plan their investments and lives, if they could give a reasonable timeline, of course taking into account that they won't know how long it will take for amendments to pass through parliament.   They are talking about the MNC 15% thing being enacted by 2025 which may be possible, if not controversial politically. For global tax 2026 might be more realistic to get through 3 parliamentary readings and would give taxpayers a bit more time to adjust (and leave the country) but who knows? They might try to do one amendment act to cover everything.   

[Dogmatix]

15 minutes ago, marino28 said:

I don’t know if I can post the link, but I just read in another place about this plane to tax everything abroad from 2025.

 

There is an article in Thansettikij that says that about the mulinational tax that was approved by the cabinet on 27 May but doesn't mention the plan to amend PIT to be a global tax for which there is mention of which I am aware that it has been put to the cabinet yet.  https://www.thansettakij.com/business/economy/597774 . Even in that case there is a hint that the BOI will resist that timeline. Here is a google translate of the whole Thansettikij article.

 

Can you post a link to the article you saw?

Treasury prepares to collect taxes on multinational companies Collect additional income of 20 billion per year

economic base

04 June 2024 | 1:21 p.m.

Deputy Finance Minister expects that within 2 weeks the Cabinet will give the green light to tax multinational companies. Supporting driving additional revenue into the country by 20 billion baht per year, confident that the law will be completed this year. It came into effect in 2025.

Mr. Chulaphan Amornvivat, Deputy Minister of Finance, revealed that progress is being made on the issuance of the Act (Act) to collect the Global Minimum Tax or to require businesses to pay a minimum tax rate of 15%. According to an agreement with the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development: OECD) is currently being considered by the Finance Minister in preparation for submission to the Cabinet (Cabinet) within 2 weeks.

On May 27th There is a meeting of the Economic Cabinet. We discussed the matter. The Board of Investment or BOI has expressed concern that it will not be able to proceed within the time frame. Because there are many economic issues that must be given importance, however, he answered the meeting that it is currently in the process. and confirmed that it will be able to be implemented within the same time frame, that is, it can come into effect in 2025 and by the end of 2024, the process of amending the law must be completed.

 

“We confirm that The legislative process will remain within the same time frame. By the short-term law He will be the one who will sit as president. This matter is beneficial for the country. Because it will help to collect additional revenue of not less than 20 billion baht per year.”

The concept of the Global Minimum Tax is that if taxes are paid in the country where affiliates do business at a rate lower than the minimum tax rate of 15%, the country where the parent company is located can collect additional taxes on top of the difference between the rates paid. and the minimum tax rate The scope of taxation considers multinational companies with total revenues of 750 million euros or more.

 

As for the idea of bringing back long-term stock mutual funds (LTF) again, At this time, it has not yet been concluded whether or not it will be reused or not. However, information from the said fund has now been studied. By the economic cabinet meeting They discussed the need to stimulate the economy.

Between now and the end of the year, measures must be taken. To take care of the economy. As for whether to bring out LTF or not, this part depends on policy. and at the same time Now there are Thai ESG funds which still have options. The government may expand the said fund. to stimulate investment. Must wait to see details of the policy again.

 

 

 

 

[marino28]

The article I saw is this one

 

https://www.thaiexaminer.com/thai-news-foreigners/2024/06/05/thai-taxman-now-plans-to-tax-foreigners-on-all-income-whether-it-is-remitted-to-the-kingdom-or-not/

[Dogmatix]

Circulated by an expat tax advisor this afternoon.

We are bringing to your immediate attention a significant development reported in the Bangkok Post today regarding potential amendments to the Thai Revenue Department's tax law. The article reports that Kulaya Tantitemit, the Revenue Department's Director-General, indicated that taxes may be extended to worldwide income, not just remittances to Thailand. If implemented, it would represent a significant extension of the changes announced last year concerning the taxation of foreign-sourced income in Thailand. You can read the article here. Our sources at the Revenue Department have confirmed high-level discussions on this issue, indicating that approval is likely. However, there is yet to be an indication of when any changes might take place. We stress that this is not an official Revenue Department policy change announcement. We will continue to keep you informed of any updates.

[Dogmatix]

8 minutes ago, marino28 said:

The article I saw is this one

 

https://www.thaiexaminer.com/thai-news-foreigners/2024/06/05/thai-taxman-now-plans-to-tax-foreigners-on-all-income-whether-it-is-remitted-to-the-kingdom-or-not/

 

 

Thanks.  If correct, that is certainly worrying. We should wait for direct quotes from the RD or at least corroboration from Thai media to confirm that is their intention. Getting it approved by the cabinet, vetted by the council of state and passed three readings in parliament would require some prioritising to get it enacted this year to make it effective on 1 Jan 2025.  They could attempt a short cut by using a Royal Decree to avoid parliamentary scrutiny and process but there is some risk in that, as it could be overturned later in parliament. 

 

For comparison the finance ministry announced that VAT would start being charged on all postal packages from May but to date the order has not yet come back from the Council of State and that is just a Customs Department Order, not legislation.

[BusNo8]

Apologies, I am just now focusing much more on this. I have three simple questions please -

 

What are the terms of the tax? ...% rates, pension income? Pension direct to Bangkok Bank.

 

How many are ...

1 Thinking of leaving

2 Thinking cut to 180

3 Suck it up

 

I'm thinking of staying a few years and hoping things change. If not perhaps Japan with wife. Low key travel. I can't see giving a country tax money when I don't have PR and double taxed (on old age pension).

 

PS/Edit

Could I gift my wife and have it sent direct to her Thai account annually?

 

Thanks anyone

[BusNo8]

I found that great news above article on TE website and somewhat informed.

 

I have savings to last a few years, but thinking about bailing out six months a year. Anyone else?

 

If I'm USA and double taxed ...

I can't afford it, it's not worth it and I'm not paying it.

 

Can we get a poll in a week or so when the news goes viral?

[andre47]

9 minutes ago, BusNo8 said:

I found a great news article on TE website and somewhat informed.

 

I have savings to last a few years, but thinking about bailing out six months a year. Anyone else?

 

If I'm USA and double taxed ...

I can't afford it, it's not worth it and I'm not paying it.

 

Can we get a poll in a week or so when the news goes viral?

why do you think that you will be double taxed?

[Dogmatix]

47 minutes ago, BusNo8 said:

 

Could I gift my wife and have it sent direct to her Thai account annually?

 

 

With global taxation, you would have to pay Thai tax on income before you gifted it to your wife. I am assuming there would be no longer any remittance tax. So no need to gift to wife, if already declared for Thai tax, you could remit it to yourself with no more tax to pay.

[Ben Zioner]

51 minutes ago, BusNo8 said:

Could I gift my wife and have it sent direct to her Thai account annually?

No.

 

Now it is only "Pay or leave".

[BusNo8]

3 minutes ago, andre47 said:

why do you think that you will be double taxed?

I'm new to really drilling down on this and not read to the contrary. The discussion about tax treaties just vague and fleeting that id run across.