Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[andre47]

7 minutes ago, BusNo8 said:

I'm new to really drilling down on this and not read to the contrary. The discussion about tax treaties just vague and fleeting that id run across.

Perhaps you should inform yourself better before you write such things

[pluto_manibo]

Edited June 5 by pluto_manibo

[UKresonant]

4 hours ago, andre47 said:

why do you think that you will be double taxed?

I would need a float of money equivelent to being double taxed and not having that money for a good few months thinking of the Thai/UK scenario. The bottom line may be no double tax, after filing all the forms out ( and losing how many days ).

[BusNo8]

9 hours ago, andre47 said:

Perhaps you should inform yourself better before you write such things

 

You are correct and I followed up stating as much but hey ..two threads tens of pages long. This post just as needless.

[topt]

5 hours ago, BusNo8 said:

 

You are correct and I followed up stating as much but hey ..two threads tens of pages long. This post just as needless.

if you haven't seen it maybe start with this - 

However the guide does not factor in the latest potential move of the goal posts.....

[ThaiPauly]

On 6/5/2024 at 2:59 PM, JimGant said:

Stay tuned. Getting away from the remittance screwiness will allow CRS and FATCA reporting (which only reports on income, not remittances) to allow TRD to have a first hand look at potential taxable income, which isn't the case, when all remittances need to be parsed as to whether or not assessable or non assessable income. Limited TRD resources will now be better used towards more productivity.

 

This remittance thingy came about, with the " bring it in next year" clause as a means of tax evasion. That's now gone. The remittance thingy no longer serves a purpose -- and its demise would bring in additional tax revenue. No brainer, as its existence no longer provides Thai fat cats that tax evasion avenue they once had.

 

Obviously, there will be individual scenarios that show the new scheme's affect on taxation. I guess, if you've somehow been able to hold off your offshore income from remittance to Thailand -- you'll now be in for a hit. Most of us, I guess, will be a notch or two down from that scenario. What that means in a new tax hit -- remains to be seen.

Jim, are you saying that even if I do not bring any cash into the country in 2024 I will have to pay tax on the money I have here?

 

I can also prove that I have funds at home that my bank statements confirm was in my bank prior to Jan 1st 2024.

 

I wanted to remit these at the start of 2025 so I will not be liable for tax on this income as I have proof of it's seasoning and therefore do not have to file a tax return

 

I was under the impression that you only have to pay tax on funds that are remitted to Thailand that were transferred after 1/1/24

 

Are all these funds now vulnerable to taxation?

 

Many thanks

Edited June 7 by ThaiPauly
Ommissions

[JimGant]

3 hours ago, ThaiPauly said:

Are all these funds now vulnerable to taxation?

3 hours ago, ThaiPauly said:

 

Let's set the scenario. New worldwide taxation scheme replaces taxation of remitted income. It probably won't come into effect until, at the earliest, 2025. Come 2025, all your worldwide income in that tax year is subject to Thai taxation, as modified by DTAs. Thus, worry only about your tax year 2025 worldwide income. Monies already in Thailand pre 2025 are automatically savings -- only tax aspect here would be interest earned on these savings. Monies in your home country savings accounts pre 2025 are savings, thus no income tax angle (again, except for earnings within the account). What's new here is: foreign income earned in 2024, that was assessable and might be remitted to Thailand in 2025 or later -- would now be exempt from Thai taxation; whereby under the remitted law, it would be assessable income, subject to taxation, in any year remitted. 

 

So, if you currently have 2024 foreign income that you really need in Thailand, but know that if you remit it this year, or in any later year -- under the current rules, it will be subject to taxation. Now, if this new worldwide rule comes into effect in 2025 -- well, wait until 2025, or later, to send to Thailand. No taxation in this scenario.

 

Maybe the new rules ain't so bad, for those waiting with baited breath to send money across the border -- but can't afford the remittance based taxes. Serendipity, maybe?

[roobaa01]

Gday 

Another horror news about Thai taxation . As from the 1.1.2025 anyone having stayed in Thailand for 180 days , would be requested to present a Thai tax no-nif or Thai income tax certificate applying for extension of stay retirement/marriage. Source : mario swiss blogger on YouTube claimed to have been advised by his lawyers. His lawyers were advised by Thai immigration.

 

Wbr

Roobaa01

[Presnock]

On 5/20/2024 at 5:26 AM, Everyman said:

Milestones continue to pass without any updates from the revenue department regarding enforcement. Last year everyone was waiting for the new year to hear more. There was nothing. Now everyone is waiting for the six month residency period. There will be nothing. Then they will say “oh, something will be announced by the end of 2024.” When that date passes they will point to the audit period. 

 

Regarding the residency thing, how does TRD know how long you’ve been in the country? With the DTAs as complicated and varied as they are, surely the rule change is minor, so why does everyone think they will suddenly step up enforcement, especially absent any statements to affirm that? How much different is it to prove that monies were earned in a different year than to prove they fall under a DTA provision? If it’s suddenly so critical to get a tax ID number merely based on residency, then why is it also so difficult to get one as compared to someone working in Thailand? 

 

My first thought when I saw the announcement in September was that it was aimed at a few wealthy Thais that have managed to wriggle out of audits based on that rule, not foreign residents or condo investors, even if they are affected under the letter of the law. 

 

For resident that brings in enough money to live on or even buy a [few] condo[s] or build a house for an Isaan girl or even start a small business, there’s not enough reason to do anything at all, and certainly not to “avoid Thai tax residency” which there is no evidence the TRD can track anyway or is interested in tracking. And the consequences down the road if something does get enforced is what…a 2000 baht fine and asserting to TRD that funds fall under a DTA? 

from what I have heard, it is based on the integrity of the individual who should know if he has to file or not, if one doesn't have assessable funds remitted or whatever, one isn't required to file a tax form.  The RD may have info on your stateside account or from local banks on your monies remitted and contact you about why the funs are not assessable.  I can provide documented proof so don't plan to do anything right yet.

'

[MeePeeMai]

20 minutes ago, roobaa01 said:

Gday 

Another horror news about Thai taxation . As from the 1.1.2025 anyone having stayed in Thailand for 180 days , would be requested to present a Thai tax no-nif or Thai income tax certificate applying for extension of stay retirement/marriage. Source : mario swiss blogger on YouTube claimed to have been advised by his lawyers. His lawyers were advised by Thai immigration.

 

Wbr

Roobaa01

 

This is what I've been saying for a while now. 

 

Immigration is the only entity that will know if you have been in Thailand for more than 180 days out of the year, so it seems that this is the only plausible way for them to enforce the "tax resident" status (tie it to our annual extensions).  

 

Many folks said:  "No, the Revenue Department and the Immigration Department are not connected and have nothing to do with each other.  It will never happen".

 

I beg to differ.  

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

3 hours ago, MeePeeMai said:

 

This is what I've been saying for a while now. 

 

Immigration is the only entity that will know if you have been in Thailand for more than 180 days out of the year, so it seems that this is the only plausible way for them to enforce the "tax resident" status (tie it to our annual extensions).  

 

Many folks said:  "No, the Revenue Department and the Immigration Department are not connected and have nothing to do with each other.  It will never happen".

 

I beg to differ.  

 

 

I agree.  110%. 

 

Many folks also said it was scaremongering, despite the obvious connection the TRD needed, through immigration records, to prove that an individual had been inside Thailand for more than 180 days in a calendar year, thus, becomes a resident of Thailand for tax purposes. 

 

So how does Thai government "herd" foreigners towards the TRD like sheep, in the same way they do immigration for an annual extension. 

 

Simple, you'll need a document from them.  It's the simplest and easiest route for the Thai government to take, and a nice earner, legitimate or otherwise, for doing absolutely no chasing of foreigners. 

 

I'm not suggesting everyone will have to pay the correct amount of tax, but I would say everyone will have to pay "something" if you know what I mean. 

 

The more that comes to light, the more we learn that the scaremongering is becoming factual.

 

Start planning for it, if you haven't already. 

Edited June 8 by KhunHeineken

[motdaeng]

3 hours ago, roobaa01 said:

 Source : mario swiss blogger on YouTube claimed to have been advised by his lawyers. His lawyers were advised by Thai immigration

 

source: a swiss you tuber had a phone call with his lawyer ... 555

please give us a break ...

[stat]

4 hours ago, roobaa01 said:

Gday 

Another horror news about Thai taxation . As from the 1.1.2025 anyone having stayed in Thailand for 180 days , would be requested to present a Thai tax no-nif or Thai income tax certificate applying for extension of stay retirement/marriage. Source : mario swiss blogger on YouTube claimed to have been advised by his lawyers. His lawyers were advised by Thai immigration.

 

Wbr

Roobaa01

Corrected

Edited June 8 by stat

[stat]

50 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I agree.  110%. 

 

Many folks also said it was scaremongering, despite the obvious connection the TRD needed, through immigration records, to prove that an individual had been inside Thailand for more than 180 days in a calendar year, thus, becomes a resident of Thailand for tax purposes. 

 

So how does Thai government "herd" foreigners towards the TRD like sheep, in the same way they do immigration for an annual extension. 

 

Simple, you'll need a document from them.  It's the simplest and easiest route for the Thai government to take, and a nice earner, legitimate or otherwise, for doing absolutely no chasing of foreigners. 

 

I'm not suggesting everyone will have to pay the correct amount of tax, but I would say everyone will have to pay "something" if you know what I mean. 

 

The more that comes to light, the more we learn that the scaremongering is becoming factual.

 

Start planning for it, if you haven't already. 

I agree with almost everything.

 

The only item that crossed my mind is that non O and non OA visa holders would not be shown on TRD radar. You could go back to back with those visa for many years. However you would still commit tax evasion if you would not hand in a tax declaration.

 

I thought a lot of the planned changes unthinkable just 2 weeks ago...

[stat]

58 minutes ago, motdaeng said:

 

source: a swiss you tuber had a phone call with his lawyer ... 555

please give us a break ...

Mario is a very respectable source for TH, number 1 source for German speakers IMHO.

 

Apparently this seems to be the PLAN for the near future regarding immi. Thai plans are however prone to suddenly change or being aborted as Mario mentioned also.

 

I think there is really no way to predict anything currently regarding tax.

Edited June 8 by stat

[Celsius]

6 minutes ago, stat said:

Mario is a very respectable source in TH.

 

 

Yeah, I don't think so. I think I will wait for Dan to fill us all in on this important subject.

[fusion58]

On 5/19/2024 at 7:59 PM, Mike Lister said:

If you don't want to be Thai tax resident this year and you've been here all year thus far, begone by the 27th.

 

Darn it! My flight leaves on the 30th. Just missed my window by three days, apparently. However, I have no plans to return to Thailand, so probably a moot point.

[Mike Teavee]

10 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

I agree.  110%. 

 

Many folks also said it was scaremongering, despite the obvious connection the TRD needed, through immigration records, to prove that an individual had been inside Thailand for more than 180 days in a calendar year, thus, becomes a resident of Thailand for tax purposes. 

 

So how does Thai government "herd" foreigners towards the TRD like sheep, in the same way they do immigration for an annual extension. 

 

Simple, you'll need a document from them.  It's the simplest and easiest route for the Thai government to take, and a nice earner, legitimate or otherwise, for doing absolutely no chasing of foreigners. 

 

I'm not suggesting everyone will have to pay the correct amount of tax, but I would say everyone will have to pay "something" if you know what I mean. 

 

The more that comes to light, the more we learn that the scaremongering is becoming factual.

 

Start planning for it, if you haven't already. 

Tax Returns are done on an "Honesty but check" basis, i.e. they rely on you being Honest, filing a return if you need to file a return & that return being accurate, but they will carry out targeted & random audits to check that people are filing/being honest - It's these audits that "Herd" the people who need to be herded to TRD. 

 

If they were to move to a system where everybody has to file a return, you'd end up with people who don't need to file a return having to file one to get a piece of paper for immigration & I don't believe that TRD could cope with the number of returns they would need to process or the number of Expats turning up at their offices with questions.

 

And then there is Immigration trying to cope with the number of Expats who turn up for their extensions & didn't know that they had to File as they had nothing to File (TRD's own rules state you don't need to File unless you have >120K of remitted assessable income & there are a lot of people who don't have this E.g. US Guys living solely on US SS).

 

And then there are the Expats on Non-IMM O/OAs who don't spend 180 days in Thailand.

 

 

This would be a Fluster Cluck bigger than any Thailand has ever done before... So expect it to come to an IO near you soon! (Joke, there's no way that they'll be able to implement this without a serious overall of the TRD & Immigration systems/processes, won't happen this decade). 

 

Edited June 9 by Mike Teavee

[Mike Teavee]

9 hours ago, stat said:

However you would still commit tax evasion if you would not hand in a tax declaration.

You would only commit tax evasion if you had taxable income that you failed to declare, not filing a return is not necessarily Tax  Evasion & (I believe) carries a penalty of 2,000B if caught. 

[roobaa01]

Gday

Another aspect pertaining the Thai tax horror the Global income taxation like mentioned in the Bangkok post article. There are foreigners who are still a resident of their home country i.e. Germany . German tax law stipulates as long as you maintain a legal address registration as first residence one is subject pay tax by law in Germany. 

So how would that play out if Thailand amending the law to global income . USA similar.

 

Wbr

Roobaa01

[Mike Teavee]

1 hour ago, roobaa01 said:

So how would that play out if Thailand amending the law to global income . USA similar.

 

Wbr

Roobaa01

That's where your Country's DTA with Thailand would come in to prevent/reduce you being taxed on the same income twice. 

 

Edited June 9 by Mike Teavee

[topt]

1 hour ago, roobaa01 said:

Gday

Another aspect pertaining the Thai tax horror the Global income taxation like mentioned in the Bangkok post article. There are foreigners who are still a resident of their home country i.e. Germany . German tax law stipulates as long as you maintain a legal address registration as first residence one is subject pay tax by law in Germany. 

So how would that play out if Thailand amending the law to global income . USA similar.

 

Wbr

Roobaa01

You would need to read your DTA as has been advised in all the other threads multiple times........

[roobaa01]

Gday 

 

This is the crux for my pension is too low to be taxed in Germany. However in Thailand it's a different story. The DTA stipulates that the German government is the tax sovereign if you are registered with a fixed address in the country. Maybe I'm wrong but this appears like a conondrum to me.

PS my net pension after deductions of health insurance in Germany is the 525k

Wbr

Roobaa01 

[Everyman]

18 hours ago, Presnock said:

from what I have heard, it is based on the integrity of the individual who should know if he has to file or not, if one doesn't have assessable funds remitted or whatever, one isn't required to file a tax form.  The RD may have info on your stateside account or from local banks on your monies remitted and contact you about why the funs are not assessable.  I can provide documented proof so don't plan to do anything right yet.

'

 

The RD isn’t going to know about my foreign accounts, they are not wizards with crystal balls. I don’t care about CRS or whatever; counties are not going to provide detailed account records of all their citizens to any 3rd world tinpot country that asks for it. The reason is because that is valuable intelligence that can be used for war, cyber attacks, kidnapping, and other criminal enterprises. 

 

It would be easy to look for accounts  with large balances that are owned by people without personal security, then kidnap or extort money from them or target them for scams. 

 

If immigration require evidence from the RD that a retiree has paid taxes on their global income, then anyone with any decent income is going to run for the airport so fast there will be a sonic boom. 

Edited June 9 by Everyman

[Presnock]

37 minutes ago, Everyman said:

 

The RD isn’t going to know about my foreign accounts, they are not wizards with crystal balls. I don’t care about CRS or whatever; counties are not going to provide detailed account records of all their citizens to any 3rd world tinpot country that asks for it. The reason is because that is valuable intelligence that can be used for war, cyber attacks, kidnapping, and other criminal enterprises. 

 

It would be easy to look for accounts  with large balances that are owned by people without personal security, then kidnap or extort money from them or target them for scams. 

 

If immigration require evidence from the RD that a retiree has paid taxes on their global income, then anyone with any decent income is going to run for the airport so fast there will be a sonic boom. 

well, both the US and Thailand are signatories on the CRS program and they entails sharing of banking info on foreigners within their country that have bank accounts.  If you are remitting funds from your country to Thailand  and your bank knows that you are a tax resident in Thailand, I do believe that they will share data - what all that entails I haven't the slightest idea.  If you have been filing a tax form either in Thailand if a tax resident or in another country on income from the other country and have accounts in both then they will be sharing data on your banking...this year will possibly be minor compared to what might arise next year.  I am not affected yet but TIT so am sitting on the fence right now waiting for the next GREAT tax the expat program.  Good luck!

[topt]

1 hour ago, Everyman said:

I don’t care about CRS or whatever; counties are not going to provide detailed account records of all their citizens to any 3rd world tinpot country that asks for it.

Not to any country correct - but to countries signed up which now includes Thailand incorrect.

 

This is old, from 2014 OECD archive, but struggling to find something more recent -

Quote

To prevent taxpayers from circumventing the CRS it is specifically designed with a broad scope across three dimensions: ‒ The financial information to be reported with respect to reportable accounts includes all types of investment income (including interest, dividends, income from certain insurance contracts and other similar types of income) but also account balances and sales proceeds from financial assets. 4 ‒ The financial institutions that are required to report under the CRS do not only include banks and custodians but also other financial institutions such as brokers, certain collective investment vehicles and certain insurance companies. ‒ Reportable accounts include accounts held by individuals and entities (which includes trusts and foundations), and the standard includes a requirement to look through passive entities to report on the individuals that ultimately control these entities.

https://web-archive.oecd.org/2016-01-27/238340-Automatic-Exchange-Financial-Account-Information-Brief.pdf

[topt]

12 minutes ago, topt said:

Not to any country correct - but to countries signed up which now includes Thailand incorrect.

 

This is old, from 2014 OECD archive, but struggling to find something more recent -

https://web-archive.oecd.org/2016-01-27/238340-Automatic-Exchange-Financial-Account-Information-Brief.pdf

Ok this is from last year 

 

https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/docserver/896d79d1-en.pdf?expires=1717918056&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=4426C559303A47AE003136E7214081D1

 

Go to page 97.

896d79d1-en.pdf

Edited June 9 by topt
file added

[stat]

21 hours ago, Celsius said:

 

Yeah, I don't think so. I think I will wait for Dan to fill us all in on this important subject.

How can you judge if you do not speak German?

[stat]

7 hours ago, Everyman said:

 

The RD isn’t going to know about my foreign accounts, they are not wizards with crystal balls. I don’t care about CRS or whatever; counties are not going to provide detailed account records of all their citizens to any 3rd world tinpot country that asks for it. The reason is because that is valuable intelligence that can be used for war, cyber attacks, kidnapping, and other criminal enterprises. 

 

It would be easy to look for accounts  with large balances that are owned by people without personal security, then kidnap or extort money from them or target them for scams. 

 

If immigration require evidence from the RD that a retiree has paid taxes on their global income, then anyone with any decent income is going to run for the airport so fast there will be a sonic boom. 

it took you longer to type this error riddled post then to check for yourself if Thailand signed up for CRS.

[stat]

6 hours ago, Presnock said:

well, both the US and Thailand are signatories on the CRS program and they entails sharing of banking info on foreigners within their country that have bank accounts.  If you are remitting funds from your country to Thailand  and your bank knows that you are a tax resident in Thailand, I do believe that they will share data - what all that entails I haven't the slightest idea.  If you have been filing a tax form either in Thailand if a tax resident or in another country on income from the other country and have accounts in both then they will be sharing data on your banking...this year will possibly be minor compared to what might arise next year.  I am not affected yet but TIT so am sitting on the fence right now waiting for the next GREAT tax the expat program.  Good luck!

You need to tell the bank where you are resident that is how CRS knows where to send the data to. Telling the bank an incorrect adress is not a good idea and could be tax evasion and will easily be spotted.
crs_-_faq.pdfcrs_-_faq.pdfcrs_-_faq.pdfcrs_-_faq.pdf

crs_-_faq.pdf CRS faq OECD.pdf