White Culture

[theblether]

2 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

The barbarity of the Aztecs, Mayans, Borneo Headhunters etc is undeniable, yet we see the exact the same thing in the early history of the Germanic tribes, the "sacrificial moors" tell their own stories.

 

This extreme barbarity seems to be a phase of  evolution, much like the Chimpanzee shows absolute cruelty..I quite agree that this depravity is part of human nature. 

 

There's plenty of fine achievements in European culture, like the ones you list. However, there are similar periods of cultural blossoming in a vast number of cultures, Japan, China, Indonesia, Iraq, even.  To see our own European cultures as the only ones who go through such periods is not to see the full picture. However, the technological gap, the industrial revolution, this was arguably by far the most important.

 

As we saw with Black Haw Down, only through the technological gap were the European/Americans able to defeat other people.

 

 

 

What do you mean it was arguable? It was by a million country miles the most important. 

 

Interesting thing was the technology was offered to the Chinese Emperor, and he arrogantly demanded that King George III bend his knee in subservience to the Middle Kingdom. Look how that worked out for the Chinese, eh? 

 

I think you need to read some real history, not the self-loathing Dalrympe bs. And certainly not Hollywood movie versions. You can start with reading the longest Imperial suicide note in history - Emperor Qianlong: Letter to George III, 1793

 

https://china.usc.edu/emperor-qianlong-letter-george-iii-1793#:~:text=You%2C O King%2C live beyond,the anniversary of my birthday.

[theblether]

2 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

The barbarity of the Aztecs, Mayans, Borneo Headhunters etc is undeniable, yet we see the exact the same thing in the early history of the Germanic tribes, the "sacrificial moors" tell their own stories.

 

This extreme barbarity seems to be a phase of  evolution, much like the Chimpanzee shows absolute cruelty..I quite agree that this depravity is part of human nature. 

 

There's plenty of fine achievements in European culture, like the ones you list. However, there are similar periods of cultural blossoming in a vast number of cultures, Japan, China, Indonesia, Iraq, even.  To see our own European cultures as the only ones who go through such periods is not to see the full picture. However, the technological gap, the industrial revolution, this was arguably by far the most important.

 

As we saw with Black Haw Down, only through the technological gap were the European/Americans able to defeat other people.

 

 

 

What do you mean it was arguable? It was by a million country miles the most important. 

 

Interesting thing was the technology was offered to the Chinese Emperor, and he arrogantly demanded that King George III bend his knee in subservience to the Middle Kingdom. Look how that worked out for the Chinese, eh? 

 

I think you need to read some real history, not the self-loathing Dalrympe bs. And certainly not Hollywood movie versions. You can start with reading the longest Imperial suicide note in history - Emperor Qianlong: Letter to George III, 1793

 

https://china.usc.edu/emperor-qianlong-letter-george-iii-1793#:~:text=You%2C O King%2C live beyond,the anniversary of my birthday.

[JimTripper]

3 hours ago, Cameroni said:

 

There is some truth to this, one of the problems the Americans had  with Black Hawk Down was that the general in charge insisted, once the rescue battalion was finally able to reach those stranded, that they all go pick up the dead body of the pilot. As the rules of engagement specified "no man left behind".  As the pilot was wedged in the wreckage of the helicopter it took time to free his body from the twisted metal. This gave the Somalis time to once again reach the Americans trying to get out. They were almost out. But were then set upon again because they spent so long trying to free the body of the pilot they had to take with them.

 

Hard to comprehend in the circumstances why the general in charge insisted on this. Since two other bodies were lost and then paraded by the Somalis through the street.

 

In this mission the aim was to kidnap and extract two henchmen of a known criminal in Somalia. Nuking and shelling were therefore not an option. But you see what you're saying, only if the technological gap were fully exploited would the Americans have had a chance to win. In a fair fight, would they have lost therefore? And are they then superior or inferior?

I think the no man left behind strategy was due to the possibility of being subjected to torture interrogation if captured alive. They make it sound like a moral compass decision in the movie, but I don't think that was the true motivation. You don't know if personnel are alive or not if you don't do a retrieval.

[Cameroni]

56 minutes ago, theblether said:

 

You need to quit with this Black Hawk Down analogy. The defensive ratio far exceeded 4:1. If the US military had moved with the required manpower to eradicate the defensive position it would have been an annihilation of the Somalis, and that would have been without using wipe-out weaponry. 

No, let's continue with it. You make it sound like it was about sheer numbers. However, US soldiers tell a different story:

 

"A U.S. participant in the firefight would later remark, "They used concealment very well. Usually all you saw of a shooter was the barrel of his weapon and his head."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_(1993)#:~:text=After the battle%2C dead American,the U.N. mission in 1995.

 

What really caused the problem for the US infantry, and led to the Rangers and Delta Force elite soldiers being picked off, was the shooting down of the helicopters. The Somalis shot them down with fairly rudimentary weapons.  Then they shot dead Delta Force soldiers from a distance.

 

In contrast the US military actions were a litany of errors. Armoured vehicles supposed to protect soldiers sped off, unwittingly leaving soldiers exposed to fire and having to walk through a sniper hell. Relief convoys actually got lost in the city, turned around twice without reaching their target.

 

The only reason the Americans got out was because Aidid  thought he had inflicted sufficient losses on the Americans and was concerned about retaliation if all the remaining soldiers were killed, so he opened a corridor to allow the Americans to escape.

 

The mistakes went to the very top:

 

"Clinton expressed surprise that the battle had even occurred[115] and later claimed that he had decided on a diplomatic solution before the incident. Despite his apparent reservations, there had been no direct orders previously given to Task Force Ranger to halt operations against the SNA. The stand down order given to U.S. forces in Somalia led other UNOSOM II contingents to effectively avoid any confrontation with the SNA. This led to the majority of UNOSOM patrols in Mogadishu to cease and numerous checkpoints in SNA controlled territory to be abandoned."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_(1993)#:~:text=After the battle%2C dead American,the U.N. mission in 1995.

 

So just before launching a major operation the Americans had given an order that led to checkpoints being abandoned.

 

In contrast the Somali leadership had stuck to a plan and executed it:

 

"The SNA leadership had the express goal of expelling U.S. forces from Somalia following the Abdi House Raid, and knew that the Americans would not be able to tolerate casualties, especially in a conflict they had no real stake. They believed that inflicting any notable casualties on the Americans would cause Congress and the public to turn against participation in UNOSOM II and withdraw from Somalia.[120][81][119] The SNA's objective was not to achieve a tactical military victory against the Americans and UNOSOM, but to sap their will to continue fighting and force a complete disengagement from Somalia."

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_(1993)#:~:text=After the battle%2C dead American,the U.N. mission in 1995.

 

So they had a strategic plan and executed it.

 

Of course you can speculate about what may, could, possibly, would have most likely happend, but in the end that's just speculation. We need to go on what the facts actually were.

 

And it would appear to be the case that the US forces were outhought and outperformed, from the very highest to the very lowest level, in Somalia.

 

This despite a massive technological gap in the US' favour. So before we Westerners pat ourselves on the back and say how superior we are, we should look at what actually happened when we were fighting supposed inferior cultures. And it's quite surprising what happened.

Edited 2 hours ago by Cameroni

[Cameroni]

4 minutes ago, JimTripper said:

I think the no man left behind strategy was due to the possibility of being subjected to torture interrogation if captured alive. They make it sound like a moral compass decision in the movie, but I don't think that was the true motivation. You don't know if personnel are alive or not if you don't do a retrieval.

 

No Jim, they knew the pilot was dead. But Delta Force and the Rangers have a policy that even the dead bodies are not to be left behind. That is why Garrison ordered his men, once they had reached those to be evacuated to retrieve the dead pilot. They had to use vehicles to pull the wreckage of the helicopter apart to get to the pilot. It took a long time. He was already dead. They knew that.