Thailand as home, roaming the world tax free - the pipe dream

[ronnie50]

Okay, this is just for fun.

 

We don’t know how/if income taxes will be applied to foreigners, and while it probably wouldn’t be a huge hit to most of us, a Thai tax on ‘global income’ for very wealthy expats who’ve lived here for years, precisely because they’ve avoided paying income tax, would be a great concern.

 

So, they could probably afford to move around each year while still making Thailand their main digs, but not long enough to pay tax here.

 

Example – using the best weather months to meet the 179 day max stay in Thailand (to avoid tax)

 

January through April – Thailand – 120 days

May through October (29^th) – 182 days (summer in either Canada, Japan, Portugal, Spain, etc. – all countries where tax residency doesn’t kick in until 183 days or more – Japan is longer/different).

October 30 to November 8, stopping in one of the other countries above (en route back to Thailand) – 10 days

November 8 through December 31 – Thailand – a final 53 days

(then repeat)

……………………..

I think the math is right. Again – just for fun – and yes, for the majority of expats that don’t have existing homes in these other places, the costs of spending half a year away wouldn’t make any economic sense. But, if you were one of those uber wealthy above (maybe you are), how would you do it? On your yacht?

 

[Will B Good]

No way on God's Earth would I be found in Thailand January to April. The temperatures are brutal and the AQ horrific.

 

Winter in Switzerland.

Autumn Thailand

Spring UK

Summer Germany

[ronnie50]

5 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

No way on God's Earth would I be found in Thailand January to April. The temperatures are brutal and the AQ horrific.

 

Winter in Switzerland.

Autumn Thailand

Spring UK

Summer Germany

Sure, decent plan, but Autumn in Thailand is rainy season and September and October are the worst (flooding, downpours)

[Will B Good]

4 minutes ago, ronnie50 said:

Sure, decent plan, but Autumn in Thailand is rainy season and September and October are the worst (flooding, downpours)

True....in my mind I moved Autumn to October November December....5555

[mokwit]

11 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

No way on God's Earth would I be found in Thailand January to April. The temperatures are brutal and the AQ horrific.

 

Winter in Switzerland.

Autumn Thailand

Spring UK

Summer Germany

I would have thought you would want to spend more time in Isaan.

[Will B Good]

2 minutes ago, mokwit said:

I would have thought you would want to spend more time in Isaan.

 

In BKK for the next few weeks......Isaan simply does not exist............. until the New Year.......555

[MartinBangkok]

A friend of mine relocated to another country half the year already. Total cost looking solely at 2024:  One time expenses mostly (deposits for renting a house, furniture, aircon, TV washing machine, etc), including travel: approximately 370.000 Baht).

 

Saved Thai tax circa 600.000 Baht. A no brainer for him.

 

Total cost 2025 in new country: Around 380.000 Baht (rent, electrisity, water, wifi, mobile phone plan, motor insurance etc) including 6 return travels. Saved Thai tax 2025: Approximately 600.000 Baht.

 

He didn't have to, but bought a new ride in the new country. So that increases the above mentioned cost, but the American dream machine was under half price of (crazy) Thailand, which made it a sheer joy to purchase he told me.

 

PS: Due to unforeseen circumstances in December, he just made it out of Thailand, with two hours to spare!, in order to not exceed the 180 days maximum limit for 2024.

 

[spidermike007]

45 minutes ago, ronnie50 said:

Sure, decent plan, but Autumn in Thailand is rainy season and September and October are the worst (flooding, downpours)

I've always found rainy season in Thailand to be the best time of year, many days that are overcast and cooler, some rain here and there but with the exception of the deep south nothing consistent enough to be annoying. 

[Everyman]

4 hours ago, MartinBangkok said:

A friend of mine relocated to another country half the year already. Total cost looking solely at 2024:  One time expenses mostly (deposits for renting a house, furniture, aircon, TV washing machine, etc), including travel: approximately 370.000 Baht).

 

Saved Thai tax circa 600.000 Baht. A no brainer for him.

 

Total cost 2025 in new country: Around 380.000 Baht (rent, electrisity, water, wifi, mobile phone plan, motor insurance etc) including 6 return travels. Saved Thai tax 2025: Approximately 600.000 Baht.

 

He didn't have to, but bought a new ride in the new country. So that increases the above mentioned cost, but the American dream machine was under half price of (crazy) Thailand, which made it a sheer joy to purchase he told me.

 

PS: Due to unforeseen circumstances in December, he just made it out of Thailand, with two hours to spare!, in order to not exceed the 180 days maximum limit for 2024.

 

 

So your friend brings in at least 200,000 baht per month, using some reverse math. So that’s nearly a million baht every 6 months that he won’t be bringing into the kingdom. All due to the hysteria and run away speculation. 

 

Thailand needs to clear the air on this, who knows how much money they’ve already lost. 

[Airalee]

Americans have to pay taxes even if they live outside the country for the entire year.  No escaping those.  Not sure how it works for EUR/AUS/UK residents.  Can those citizens really border hop and pay no taxes to their home country?

 

This year I spent 176 days in Thailand 

 

My usual spend in Thailand for the last 5 years has been about 100k/month.  None of that 100k is spent on rent as I own a condo.

 

Thailand lost ฿600k of spending.  More in GDP when the velocity of money is factored in.

 

It’s a small amount in the big picture but the people whose businesses I patronized (doctors, restaurants, massage, etc.) would have preferred me to have stayed.

 

If they decide before tax time in 2025 to tax total global income (not just remitted income) I would have had to pay an additional ฿400,000-500,000 in taxes due to the way they treat long term capital gains tax 25%-30% vs the US 15%

 

If they only tax remitted money, I would have had to pay less tax but still…

 

No thanks!

 

No taxation without representation!  
 

If they want me to stay and pay taxes then they will have to offer something such as the social healthcare plan @ ฿600/month

[Lorry]

10 hours ago, MartinBangkok said:

PS: Due to unforeseen circumstances in December, he just made it out of Thailand, with two hours to spare!, in order to not exceed the 180 days maximum limit for 2024.

The limit is 179 days.

I hope he knows that. 

[ronnie50]

18 hours ago, MartinBangkok said:

 

PS: Due to unforeseen circumstances in December, he just made it out of Thailand, with two hours to spare!, in order to not exceed the 180 days maximum limit for 2024.

 

Now, that's cutting it close!

[ronnie50]

18 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

I've always found rainy season in Thailand to be the best time of year, many days that are overcast and cooler, some rain here and there but with the exception of the deep south nothing consistent enough to be annoying. 

That's true enough (cooler though still humid). Rainy season takes a break usually mid-July to mid-August. But Sept/Oct can be pretty heavy.

[ronnie50]

18 hours ago, MartinBangkok said:

A friend of mine relocated to another country half the year already. Total cost looking solely at 2024:  One time expenses mostly (deposits for renting a house, furniture, aircon, TV washing machine, etc), including travel: approximately 370.000 Baht).

 

Saved Thai tax circa 600.000 Baht. A no brainer for him.

Is your friend single and does he own a place in Thailand? That's the ony way I can see that working. If you rent a condo, in Bangkok or Pattaya, or wherever, it's probably on a one-year lease, but I guess there are ways around that..

[andux]

You can rent very nice, modern apartments in Malaysia, Vietnam, etc. on Airbnb for less than 30,000 baht a month.

 

So the additional cost should be less than 200,000 baht a year if one spends half the time in those countries. One can even add to the mix other relatively low-cost places in Eastern Europe, Southern Spain, or South America, though in those cases the flights will be obviously more expensive than jumping to Kuala Lumpur for 2k baht.

 

Basically: a little bit less than 6 months in Thailand (preferably from August to February to avoid the smoke season), 3-4 months in other low-cost countries (SEA if you want to stretch those baht even further or have a girlfriend in Thailand and want to fly her over often), and a couple of months in one's home country/traveling.

 

But this is all based on speculation of what may happen. There is no worldwide tax yet, and for all we know it could even be beneficial with tax treaties in place, a revamp of the income tax brackets, etc. It is a good idea to plan ahead though.

 

 

[MartinBangkok]

11 hours ago, Lorry said:

The limit is 179 days.

I hope he knows that. 

He knows, and he just made it.

[MartinBangkok]

3 hours ago, ronnie50 said:

Is your friend single and does he own a place in Thailand? That's the ony way I can see that working. If you rent a condo, in Bangkok or Pattaya, or wherever, it's probably on a one-year lease, but I guess there are ways around that..

Yes, single. He rents in Thailand. 3 bedroom house, two bathrooms, big carport. 8000 Baht a month

[Airalee]

3 hours ago, ronnie50 said:

Is your friend single and does he own a place in Thailand? That's the ony way I can see that working. If you rent a condo, in Bangkok or Pattaya, or wherever, it's probably on a one-year lease, but I guess there are ways around that..

6 month leases are available in all cities.

[Airalee]

2 hours ago, andux said:

You can rent very nice, modern apartments in Malaysia, Vietnam, etc. on Airbnb for less than 30,000 baht a month.

 

So the additional cost should be less than 200,000 baht a year if one spends half the time in those countries. One can even add to the mix other relatively low-cost places in Eastern Europe, Southern Spain, or South America, though in those cases the flights will be obviously more expensive than jumping to Kuala Lumpur for 2k baht.

 

Basically: a little bit less than 6 months in Thailand (preferably from August to February to avoid the smoke season), 3-4 months in other low-cost countries (SEA if you want to stretch those baht even further or have a girlfriend in Thailand and want to fly her over often), and a couple of months in one's home country/traveling.

 

But this is all based on speculation of what may happen. There is no worldwide tax yet, and for all we know it could even be beneficial with tax treaties in place, a revamp of the income tax brackets, etc. It is a good idea to plan ahead though.

 

 

You can rent very nice apartments in Da Nang Vietnam for less than ฿10,000.  The best place to look for any city in Vietnam is by joining a Facebook group for rentals in whatever city you might happen to be interested in and then posting what you are looking for, location, price etc etc and you will have a dozen agents responding within a day.  ฿30,000 will get you extreme luxury 2-3 bedroom houses.  Online websites are not the places to look and the prices will be a lot more than when you post in Facebook groups.

 

I looked on Airbnb also and am glad I went the Facebook route.

[jayboy]

Returning to the topic, the question was whether "very wealthy expats" would move part of the year to second residences or elsewhere outside Thailand to avoid any future tax by Thailand on global income.The very question betrays naivety because very wealthy expats have recourse to expert tax lawyers who specialize in offshore platforms to avoid tax legally.The chances of a very wealthy expat paying Thai tax on global income is in my view effectively nil even if he/she remained in Thailand throughout the year.Of course some tax would be paid here but not to a tiresome degree, and certainly not on global income.

 

Furthermore wealthy expatriates have for at least a century split their time between warm climates and their (usually) colder climates.This will continue but only because it suits them and in most cases will have nothing to do with a 180 day cut off point.These people have nothing in common with the more typical down at heels expat who - if this forum is evidence to go by - is prepared to move around from one South East Asian low rent expat outpost to another.

[andux]

1 hour ago, Airalee said:

You can rent very nice apartments in Da Nang Vietnam for less than ฿10,000.  The best place to look for any city in Vietnam is by joining a Facebook group for rentals in whatever city you might happen to be interested in and then posting what you are looking for, location, price etc etc and you will have a dozen agents responding within a day.  ฿30,000 will get you extreme luxury 2-3 bedroom houses.  Online websites are not the places to look and the prices will be a lot more than when you post in Facebook groups.

 

I looked on Airbnb also and am glad I went the Facebook route.

 

Yes, I agree that you can find much better deals than 30,000 baht a month on Facebook, and also on Airbnb.

 

I actually overestimated the cost for the sake of argument, and to put an upper limit on the calculations. In reality, it ends up being much less than that.

 

If you search on Airbnb you can find very good stuff in Da Nang for ~15,000 baht a month. Still more expensive than looking on Facebook, but I like the convenience of doing it all in a minute, quickly filter by the things I want, location, reading the reviews, etc. (yes, I know, that convenience and laziness has a little additional cost 🙂 ). 

 

 

[Airalee]

53 minutes ago, andux said:

 

Yes, I agree that you can find much better deals than 30,000 baht a month on Facebook, and also on Airbnb.

 

I actually overestimated the cost for the sake of argument, and to put an upper limit on the calculations. In reality, it ends up being much less than that.

 

If you search on Airbnb you can find very good stuff in Da Nang for ~15,000 baht a month. Still more expensive than looking on Facebook, but I like the convenience of doing it all in a minute, quickly filter by the things I want, location, reading the reviews, etc. (yes, I know, that convenience and laziness has a little additional cost 🙂 ). 

 

 

I’m looking at the same places in the neighborhood I’m currently in on AirBnB right now and they are 50-100% more than renting directly.  Better to grab a 250,000 Dong (340 baht) hotel for a couple days and then use Facebook. That AirBnB convenience gets expensive.

[Airalee]

1 hour ago, andux said:

 

Yes, I agree that you can find much better deals than 30,000 baht a month on Facebook, and also on Airbnb.

 

I actually overestimated the cost for the sake of argument, and to put an upper limit on the calculations. In reality, it ends up being much less than that.

 

If you search on Airbnb you can find very good stuff in Da Nang for ~15,000 baht a month. Still more expensive than looking on Facebook, but I like the convenience of doing it all in a minute, quickly filter by the things I want, location, reading the reviews, etc. (yes, I know, that convenience and laziness has a little additional cost 🙂 ). 

 

 

I also just checked my condo in Bangkok.   The developer has a sign at the front desk where the condos identical to mine are asking 59k/month for just a month and 49k long term.  On hipflat it is 45k.  Real market value is about 30-40k.  AirBNB is 100k at the discounted monthly rate.

[ronnie50]

2 hours ago, jayboy said:

Returning to the topic, the question was whether "very wealthy expats" would move part of the year to second residences or elsewhere outside Thailand to avoid any future tax by Thailand on global income.The very question betrays naivety because very wealthy expats have recourse to expert tax lawyers who specialize in offshore platforms to avoid tax legally.

Not naive, but you're right, I should have said "wealthier expats" or "more well-off expats". It's that upper-middle-class expat I was thinking about - the 4-5 million baht a year types. The yacht reference was a jibe.

[jayboy]

41 minutes ago, ronnie50 said:

Not naive, but you're right, I should have said "wealthier expats" or "more well-off expats". It's that upper-middle-class expat I was thinking about - the 4-5 million baht a year types. The yacht reference was a jibe.

 

Yes I agree.If one comes down to that level there may be some who who consider their options of spending more time in the US or Europe.I doubt whether they would considers less developed alternatives in Asia.However I still don't believe that the vast majority would be interested in exchanging the relatively benign Thailand tax regime with the more exacting Western systems.Also if Double Taxation Agreements are taken into account there might not be a lot of point in moving between countries.Finally, people in that income bracket are likely to have substantial savings/investments incurred prior to 31.12.23 - so could remove themselves from the THai income tax regime - at least while the remittance basis of tax remains in place.

[Everyman]

4 hours ago, jayboy said:

Returning to the topic, the question was whether "very wealthy expats" would move part of the year to second residences or elsewhere outside Thailand to avoid any future tax by Thailand on global income.The very question betrays naivety because very wealthy expats have recourse to expert tax lawyers who specialize in offshore platforms to avoid tax legally.The chances of a very wealthy expat paying Thai tax on global income is in my view effectively nil even if he/she remained in Thailand throughout the year.Of course some tax would be paid here but not to a tiresome degree, and certainly not on global income.

 

Furthermore wealthy expatriates have for at least a century split their time between warm climates and their (usually) colder climates.This will continue but only because it suits them and in most cases will have nothing to do with a 180 day cut off point.These people have nothing in common with the more typical down at heels expat who - if this forum is evidence to go by - is prepared to move around from one South East Asian low rent expat outpost to another.

 

Part of the problem is that the thai tax code is too primitive to exploit these kinds of clever loopholes - it doesn’t have them. It even taxes capital gains as normal income. 

 

It’s easy for rich people to just get on a plane and go somewhere that doesn’t reach into their pocket. 

[newbee2022]

On 12/22/2024 at 10:07 PM, Airalee said:

Can those citizens really border hop and pay no taxes to their home country?

As far as I know EU members have to pay taxes to their home countries wherever they live.

[Wake Up1]

On 12/22/2024 at 4:36 PM, MartinBangkok said:

A friend of mine relocated to another country half the year already. Total cost looking solely at 2024:  One time expenses mostly (deposits for renting a house, furniture, aircon, TV washing machine, etc), including travel: approximately 370.000 Baht).

 

Saved Thai tax circa 600.000 Baht. A no brainer for him.

 

Total cost 2025 in new country: Around 380.000 Baht (rent, electrisity, water, wifi, mobile phone plan, motor insurance etc) including 6 return travels. Saved Thai tax 2025: Approximately 600.000 Baht.

 

He didn't have to, but bought a new ride in the new country. So that increases the above mentioned cost, but the American dream machine was under half price of (crazy) Thailand, which made it a sheer joy to purchase he told me.

 

PS: Due to unforeseen circumstances in December, he just made it out of Thailand, with two hours to spare!, in order to not exceed the 180 days maximum limit for 2024.

 

He could have gotten the 10 year LTR visa for 50,000 baht and not paid any taxes in Thailand for worldwide income. Two hours to spare- Nice story. 😊

[john donson]

so people here are willing to sign and pay long leases of 12 months and be here less then 6? and do the same in other countries?

[ronnie50]

1 hour ago, john donson said:

so people here are willing to sign and pay long leases of 12 months and be here less then 6? and do the same in other countries?

Some posters above say there are lots of 6 month leases available. That's never been my experience. But maybe.