Fatal Motorcycle Crash at Notorious Bend Sparks Local Superstition

[NanLaew]

Those drainage gullies are dangerous. A sober scooter rider, suddenly confronted with traffic from ahead on the wrong side of the road, or being cut-off by a passing vehicle that was suddenly confronted with traffic from ahead on the wrong side of the road, will find themselves in the gully and hitting the power pole.

 

This IS an accident black spot. Why? Because of knee-jerk responses that are bereft of any semblance of road traffic safety engineering as the road has been progressively widened to facilitate heavier and wider traffic flows.

 

Fifteen or twenty years ago, the power poles were probably a safe distance away on a grass verge on what was probably a narrow rural road that didn't see heavy traffic. The road gets resurfaced and widened to make increasing amount of two-way traffic safer, the poles remain in the same place. New businesses set up on the busier roadside, maximising their plot of land, right up to the utility poles. Then the road requires better drainage to make it safer in the rainy season, so the gully style drain is squeezed in between the widened road and the "immovable" utility poles. Street lighting may also be poor, so after some accidents, they paint red and white stripes on the poles at eye-level to scooter riders. There, all sorted as far as the various, non-interactive, local government departments are concerned but still having accidents, so it must be "pee".

 

You don't need to be a pished scooter rider or an accredited ROSPA safety driver to see it has and always will be an accident waiting to happen.

[richard_smith237]

6 hours ago, NanLaew said:

On 12/26/2024 at 5:55 PM, richard_smith237 said:

You are so locked into your binary rhetoric you fail to see any other picture. 

 

And you aren't?

 

No, because I agree with and believe in the 'road engineering' and 'traffic calming measures' that lead to accidents and road fatalities. 

 

Where Kwilco and I differ, is that I also believe that even with the best road engineer people stupid riders and drivers will still find a way to kill themselves. 

 

So, while the rhetoric of my argument may seen one sided, it is in fact multifaceted, accomodate all factors yet still arrives at the same conclusion - stupid people will do stupid thing and we can't engineer for all of them. 

 

 

[richard_smith237]

6 hours ago, NanLaew said:

17 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

Your ability to talk down to everyone is truly unmatched, even by myself !!!.

 

There's no need to be so hard on yourself. Your pontifical abilities are right up there with the best of them.

 

Touché !

[richard_smith237]

5 hours ago, NanLaew said:

Those drainage gullies are dangerous. A sober scooter rider, suddenly confronted with traffic from ahead on the wrong side of the road, or being cut-off by a passing vehicle that was suddenly confronted with traffic from ahead on the wrong side of the road, will find themselves in the gully and hitting the power pole.

 

This IS an accident black spot. Why? Because of knee-jerk responses that are bereft of any semblance of road traffic safety engineering as the road has been progressively widened to facilitate heavier and wider traffic flows.

 

Fifteen or twenty years ago, the power poles were probably a safe distance away on a grass verge on what was probably a narrow rural road that didn't see heavy traffic. The road gets resurfaced and widened to make increasing amount of two-way traffic safer, the poles remain in the same place. New businesses set up on the busier roadside, maximising their plot of land, right up to the utility poles. Then the road requires better drainage to make it safer in the rainy season, so the gully style drain is squeezed in between the widened road and the "immovable" utility poles. Street lighting may also be poor, so after some accidents, they paint red and white stripes on the poles at eye-level to scooter riders. There, all sorted as far as the various, non-interactive, local government departments are concerned but still having accidents, so it must be "pee".

 

You don't need to be a pished scooter rider or an accredited ROSPA safety driver to see it has and always will be an accident waiting to happen.

 

I agree with all of this...  But are the accidents happened at 7pm when Mum is returning with food from the market ?...   Or are they happening at 3am when Bob or Somchai is wrecked out of his brains and speeding ?

 

Because, if its the latter, Bob or Somchai will find other ways to kill themselves - and thus, all the good intentions and fantastic road engineering in the world will not prevent their deaths when the ride head on into another car after failing to navigate a bed while speeding etc... 

 

That said - I am in 100% agreement with Kwilco's earlier comment and your comments above that the drainage ditches and utility poles are a lethal hazard, had they not been there the motorcyclist would still be alive - until his drunk riding behavior and speeding dictates otherwise. 

 

Thus: Stupid people will still find a way to kill themselves no matter how great the roads are - In aggregate, the accident and fatality rates can be reduced, but this also requires societal shift in attitudes towards road safety, not just 'better engineered roads'... 

 

 

 

[NanLaew]

2 hours ago, richard_smith237 said:

 

I agree with all of this...  But are the accidents happened at 7pm when Mum is returning with food from the market ?...   Or are they happening at 3am when Bob or Somchai is wrecked out of his brains and speeding ?

 

Because, if its the latter, Bob or Somchai will find other ways to kill themselves - and thus, all the good intentions and fantastic road engineering in the world will not prevent their deaths when the ride head on into another car after failing to navigate a bed while speeding etc... 

 

That said - I am in 100% agreement with Kwilco's earlier comment and your comments above that the drainage ditches and utility poles are a lethal hazard, had they not been there the motorcyclist would still be alive - until his drunk riding behavior and speeding dictates otherwise. 

 

Thus: Stupid people will still find a way to kill themselves no matter how great the roads are - In aggregate, the accident and fatality rates can be reduced, but this also requires societal shift in attitudes towards road safety, not just 'better engineered roads'... 

 

 

 

 

From a safety point of view, it's all about reducing the risk to ALARP (as low as reasonably practical). Unfortunately, in my earlier example, which is doubtless repeated at tens of thousands of locations throughout Thailand, the uncoordinated actions of individual local government departments during a routine road widening exercise in a growing conurbation over the years, preclude a collective risk assessment, thus ALARP cannot exist. It would seem that relocating utility poles is seldom considered as a solution as it's probably the most expensive and disruptive option. What cost public safety? [rhetorical]

 

But these local government entities aren't involved with mitigating for things like bad (or drunk) driving, a suicidal jaywalker or the likelihood of a wheel coming of a speeding lorry and taking out unlicensed yai on her uninsured salaeng. Other government entities are charged with mitigating that and therein lies another failure to reduce the risk.

[kwilco]

How many COLLISIONS are their over year on UK roads...first of all it’s important NOT to look at figures for just 2 classifications of injury or deaths...only the number of collisions / crashes
In 2022, there were approximately 333,296 road traffic accidents across Great Britain, averaging over 900 per day. This figure includes all reported collisions, regardless of whether they resulted in injuries or fatalities. It's important to note that not all accidents are reported and the number is actually higher.
This is similar to the number in Thailand the estimate averaging around 1,200 incidents per day. This figure encompasses all reported collisions, regardless of whether they resulted in injuries or fatalities. 
There are of course lies, damned lies and statistics but after studying road safety stats for nearly 30 years one gets to see an overall perspective rather than naively cherry-picking any single set of stats that fits ones expectation – I draw conclusions AFTER studying a range of statistics.
The important conclusion to draw is that with similar numbers of crashes, the 3 injury rates (minor, serious, fatal) in Thailand are TWELVE times higher than in the UK. This means that people will always have accidents but it is the severity that varies – this comes largely from engineering factors such as road and vehicle. Another serious factor in Thailand is also the emergency services from first responder to hospitals.
 

[richard_smith237]

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

How many COLLISIONS are their over year on UK roads...first of all it’s important NOT to look at figures for just 2 classifications of injury or deaths...only the number of collisions / crashes
In 2022, there were approximately 333,296 road traffic accidents across Great Britain, averaging over 900 per day. This figure includes all reported collisions, regardless of whether they resulted in injuries or fatalities. It's important to note that not all accidents are reported and the number is actually higher.
This is similar to the number in Thailand the estimate averaging around 1,200 incidents per day. This figure encompasses all reported collisions, regardless of whether they resulted in injuries or fatalities. 
There are of course lies, damned lies and statistics but after studying road safety stats for nearly 30 years one gets to see an overall perspective rather than naively cherry-picking any single set of stats that fits ones expectation – I draw conclusions AFTER studying a range of statistics.
The important conclusion to draw is that with similar numbers of crashes, the 3 injury rates (minor, serious, fatal) in Thailand are TWELVE times higher than in the UK. This means that people will always have accidents but it is the severity that varies – this comes largely from engineering factors such as road and vehicle. Another serious factor in Thailand is also the emergency services from first responder to hospitals.

 

 

Your figures (which you've taken from Compare the Market website).

UK Yearly accidents 2022: 333,296 / 913 per day

https://www.comparethemarket.com/car-insurance/news/road-traffic-accidents/

In 2022 the UK had: 1,695 road fatalities,

 

Thailand Yearly accidents 2023: 939,713 /   2574 per day  

https://www.nationthailand.com/thailand/general/40023780?utm_source=chatgpt.com

In 2023 the Thailand had: 14,737 road fatalities (in reality this figure is closer to 20,000 according to WHO estimates)

 

Accidents Involving 4-Wheeled+ Vehicles

As there no stats separating motorcycle accidents we have to 'assume that the proportion of accidents involving 4-wheeled+ vehicles matches their proportion in the total vehicle population.

 

UK (96% of registered vehicles are 4 wheels or more)

Accidents Involving 4-Wheeled+  Vehicles = 333,296 × 0.96 = 319,964

 

Thailand (33% of registered vehicles are 4 wheels or more)

Accidents Involving 4-Wheeled+ Vehicles = 939,713 × 0.33 = 310,105

 

 

Fatality Rate per Accident for 4-Wheeled+ Vehicles

Fatality Rate per Accident (UK) = 1,345 / 319,964 = 0.0042 fatalities per accident.

Fatality Rate per Accident (Thailand) = 4,000 / 310,105 = 0.0129 fatalities per accident.

 

The results reflect the proportionate involvement of 4-wheeled+ vehicles in accidents and highlight that the fatality rate per accident for Thailand is  ~ 3x the UK.

 

You quoted Benjamin Disraeli; "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics"..  and the above information paints with a very board brush, nevertheless a picture is painted.

 

Also note - people tend not to wear seatbelts in Thailand which also heavily impacts Thailands fatality statics and may also account for the 3x factor of deaths.

 

But already the above information places the Thailand statistic a lot closer to the UK statistic than your TWELVE times...     

 

You studied road safety stats for 30 years you say ???...  you completely ignored the proportional difference between motorcycles and cars between countries when making your comparison.

 

You'll never admit that though, for contrary to what you post you are arguing a point and have in fact presented distorted stats to fit your conclusion.

 

 

Below is an example of your Bias: 

1 hour ago, kwilco said:

In 2022, there were approximately 333,296 road traffic accidents across Great Britain, averaging over 900 per day. This figure includes all reported collisions, regardless of whether they resulted in injuries or fatalities. It's important to note that not all accidents are reported and the number is actually higher.
This is similar to the number in Thailand the estimate averaging around 1,200 incidents per day.

 

The number you quoted is less than half of what is quoted by the nation.

 

You fail to mention that the number of reported accidents might be higher for Thailand too, as not all accidents are reported. 

 

In fact as I pointed out earlier in the thread - the amount of reported accidents in the UK is probably much higher because of insurance excess - particularly minor accidents. 

Whereas in Thailand, its likely the amount of reported accidents is much higher because fewer people have insurance full stop. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kwilco]

I love the idea that after every post I make richard_smith237 spends hours delving around Google for information he doesn't understand - he has no idea of the difference between "search" and "research"

 

Firstly he needs to sort out his sources and differentiate between between the 3 internationally recognised forms of injury and also statistics that are gathered regardless of injury - even zero. Apparently he doesn't even see the difference

he has no idea of the dept of Transport UK website on road safety statistics or the Thai web 

sites either.

 

After working in a traffic engineers department as part of my first degree, I had access to many road safety papers and statistics. I've been studying road safety - especially in Thailand for nearly 30 years.

I have a huge amount of sources already at my fingertips and have written extensively on it - yes- I've been to conferences on it too.

 

What I find frustrating is a know nothing naively trolling through Goggle to cherrypick pointless arguments when they don't even understand the first thing about motoring  and road safety, and the statistics.He doesn't even know who and how they are gathered in Thailand or the processes o interpreting them. This means it's actually impossible to discuss rationally. He seems to think that by contradicting numbers he is in some way putting forward an argument - in fact he he just obfuscating the discussion because he doesn't understand it. THere is no counter argument in inaccurately presenting numbers without comment

 

Yet he goes on to compile a passage of completely irrelevant rubbish why? Just to continue his mindlessly obsessive gainsaying and perpetuating a fundamental misunderstanding of what road safety is. You can can regurgitate as many stats as you like but without any analysis or comprehension he "proves" nothing in this discussion.