Revenue Department boss calls on tax residents in Thailand to file 2024 returns by March 31

[chiang mai]

3 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

My rule with government departments is to volunteer no information.

 

First the TRD has to find me.

 

If I am asked why I did not file a tax return, I respond there is a DTA with Australia. Second, I am transferring savings. Third, I am transferring pension income.  Fourth, I have 500,000 in tax concessions.

 

The only concern I have is the TRD, like Immigration, makes up the rules as they go along.

If push came to shove and somebody said, "prove it, for the past ten years", could you?

[Presnock]

Just now, chiang mai said:

If push came to shove and somebody said, "prove it, for the past ten years", could you?

very easily, I only have a US civil service pension which is taxable only by the US govt and I have been getting only that pension for more than 20 years already.  I have documentation and the immigration folks already have had it plus the BOI got all the documents for my LTR so the Thai govt has that info if theyknow how to find it.  If not and they contact me I will gladly show them that proof.

[chiang mai]

Just now, Presnock said:

very easily, I only have a US civil service pension which is taxable only by the US govt and I have been getting only that pension for more than 20 years already.  I have documentation and the immigration folks already have had it plus the BOI got all the documents for my LTR so the Thai govt has that info if theyknow how to find it.  If not and they contact me I will gladly show them that proof.

That is the question that others need to answer, not necessarily you.  

[Presnock]

Just now, chiang mai said:

That is the question that others need to answer, not necessarily you.  

If anyone has a govt pension that is not taxable by any govt other than the one providing that pension, then documentat should be available through the retirement office paying the pension.  I can easily go to my OPM retirement account and print up the necessary years of proof that it is a US govt pension.  Just as I need the documentation for my foreign bank account report - get that info from the US stateside bank - so anything they get from the Thai bank just confirms my reporting.  Having been required for over 60 years (except 2 in a war zone) I had to file my income taxes, no escape whatsoever.

[Gobbler]

4 minutes ago, Presnock said:

If anyone has a govt pension that is not taxable by any govt other than the one providing that pension, then documentat should be available through the retirement office paying the pension.  I can easily go to my OPM retirement account and print up the necessary years of proof that it is a US govt pension.  Just as I need the documentation for my foreign bank account report - get that info from the US stateside bank - so anything they get from the Thai bank just confirms my reporting.  Having been required for over 60 years (except 2 in a war zone) I had to file my income taxes, no escape whatsoever.

 

It was written by a man who had never read the agreement between Thailand and the USA. Do you want it? 

[Presnock]

1 minute ago, Gobbler said:

 

It was written by a man who had never read the agreement between Thailand and the USA. Do you want it? 

I have read the DTA and the articles are clear about US only can tax SS and CIVIL SERVICE pension - that is me 40 years of service including my 4 years militart,

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

36 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

My rule with government departments is to volunteer no information.

 

First the TRD has to find me.

 

If I am asked why I did not file a tax return, I respond there is a DTA with Australia. Second, I am transferring savings. Third, I am transferring pension income.  Fourth, I have 500,000 in tax concessions.

 

The only concern I have is the TRD, like Immigration, makes up the rules as they go along.

 

Those responses above would be pretty identical to those that I believe would apply in my situation, except for mine being a different home country from yours.

 

Interestingly, the Integrity Legal guy's general advice as listed above is that most people who don't already have one should NOT run out to get a Thai Tax number because of all this B.S., because (in his opinion) doing so exposes the person to potential claims of tax liability that might not ever be raised in the absence of a voluntary Thai Tax ID application filing.

 

[KhunHeineken]

I know the Revenue Department boss has made these comments, but isn't this thread "scaremongering?" 

 

I mean, so many members think this tax issue will go away, and this thread is just scaring them. 

 

Maybe it should be deleted.  After all, if we don't know about it, we can't be scared of it. 

[Presnock]

3 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Those responses above would be pretty identical to those that I believe would apply in my situation, except for mine being a different home country from yours.

 

Interestingly, the Integrity Legal guy's general advice as listed above is that most people who don't already have one should NOT run out to get a Thai Tax number because of all this B.S., because (in his opinion) doing so exposes the person to potential claims of tax liability that might not ever be raised in the absence of a voluntary Thai Tax ID application filing.

 

must be someone that everyne will run out to have his agency do their taxes for them, but I am basing my opinion and options based on my reading originally from this forum which provided many avenues of information.  After reading the same, over the past year or so, I understand what my obligations are.  All should be aware of their DTA if there is one with Thailand and that individuals income situation as defined by the Thai revenue department.  There are other agnecy reports about failure to file if one is required to file and the consequences of not doing so which it seems maybe 58% of the poll responders to filing or not.  

[NoDisplayName]

We just filed our taxes online, using the Thai forms.  Took just under half an hour, as taking notes. 

 

All my remittances were prior 2024 savings, so not declared.  Listing only Thai sourced interest and dividends, and requesting a refund of tax withheld.

 

Logged in with pink ID number, selected file form 90.

 

Page one opened pre-filled with my identifying information.  I clicked on "2567 married" from the drop-down menu.  Spouse's info loaded, and we selected "no salary."

 

Page two scroll down to the interest/dividends section.  Entered total interest earned, total tax withheld and bank's payer ID number.  Then entered total dividends, total tax withheld and brokerage's payer ID number.  No need to enter bank name or address.

 

Page three showed 60K for self and 60K for wife.  Did not bother with other allowances (wife's social insurance contribution and health insurance premiums) as not needed.

 

Page four is a summary of entered information and calculated totals.  This was all correct, so we checked the box "I want a refund."

 

Page five is the final version of the return.  Click the button to submit.

 

Page six is confirmation page, can print copy of return and TRD receipt.

 

Same as last year, there was no request to upload a bank statement or dividend receipts.  Assume TRD has access to current year databases.  Expect a refund letter in a couple weeks that I can take to Krung Thai to deposit.  My local Bangkok Bank can/will not link my accounts to my pink ID, so no PromptPay available for me.

 

In summary, "Super easy, barely an inconvenience!"

[KhunHeineken]

16 hours ago, SiamAndy said:

Buh bye Thailand!

For some, it will be financially beneficial to say "bye bye Thailand" for 6 months of the year. 

 

For others, they will simply pay their tax liability because it's not so big.

 

Some may have to make a judgement call if this tax still means Thailand is a value for money place to live full time.  For high net worth individuals, it may be a game changer.

 

Also, for pensioners, a little out of a little can be a lot to them. 

 

Interesting times ahead. 

[Gobbler]

18 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Interestingly, the Integrity Legal guy's general advice as listed above is that most people who don't already have one should NOT run out to get a Thai Tax number because of all this B.S., because (in his opinion) doing so exposes the person to potential claims of tax liability that might not ever be raised in the absence of a voluntary Thai Tax ID application filing.

No worries, several followers will ignore Benjamin's advice because he disagrees with them.  Fools. 

[anrcaccount]

1 hour ago, chiang mai said:

1 hour ago, Presnock said:

From what I have read, but also note I am not a tax expert by any means but if one does not have any ASSESSABLE income then there is no requirement to file nor get a tax ID number.  That is my opinion and I am sticking to it and not filing.  I realize that the TRD will probably contact me to advise them of the source of my monies and show that I do have an LTR visa unless they get that from immigration prior to contacting me.  But, best of luck to all in your endeavors this tax season...I do believe the worldwide income bit will continue to fester as it seems some powerful people don't like it.

The problem here is that whilst you know your remittance is not assessable, TRD doesn't, unless somebody tells them. All they see is a remittance that has no corresponding tax return, which is why I believe non assessable funds will need to be reported, as they are in other countries.

 

Of all the opinions you prolifically share, this is up there with the most ludicrous.

 

So you're now of the belief that every single remittance into Thailand will need to be reported? And, the TRD will 'see' these? 

 

IMO, beyond a joke.

 

Another poster, who has already filed their return (ignoring non assessable funds) stated it well in a post above:

 

 

"The taxpayer determines which of the funds remitted are income, and which portion of the income is assessable.  Only that self-determined assessable income would be declared.

 

With the current tax forms, there is no way to distinguish assessable vs. non-assessable funds.  Anything declared is considered to be assessable, and taxable."

 

 

[Gobbler]

The bureaucracy in the USA is terrible enough.  Imagine how bad it is here.  Pull the sheets over your head when you get in bed with the Thai tax collectors.

[anrcaccount]

4 hours ago, chiang mai said:

4 hours ago, ronnie50 said:

Thanks, that's what I thought. The whole thing is still nonsense because there's not really any real way to prove or disprove when the money was earned, is that right?

It is YOU, the taxpayer, who files the tax return and must state whether the income you have declared is tax assessable or not, when it was earned and who MUST be able to prove what you say, if audited or required. So you better hope there's a way to prove it or you're in trouble.

 

https://sherrings.com/foreign-source-income-personal-tax-thailand.html

 

If you ever wonder why you're accused of "fearmongering" (apart from the constant stream of thousands of posts on tax) it is statements like this. 

 

Have you got real life examples to share of Thai taxpayers getting in trouble, and what kind of trouble,  for not being able to prove / disprove foreign income and when it was earned? 

 

 

 

 

[Presnock]

7 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Of all the opinions you prolifically share, this is up there with the most ludicrous.

 

So you're now of the belief that every single remittance into Thailand will need to be reported? And, the TRD will 'see' these? 

 

IMO, beyond a joke.

 

Another poster, who has already filed their return (ignoring non assessable funds) stated it well in a post above:

 

 

"The taxpayer determines which of the funds remitted are income, and which portion of the income is assessable.  Only that self-determined assessable income would be declared.

 

With the current tax forms, there is no way to distinguish assessable vs. non-assessable funds.  Anything declared is considered to be assessable, and taxable."

 

 

well that is a personal thing.  I am a firm believer in obeying the rules even if I think theyr are ridiculous.  I have read the rules and have stated my opinion.  Just because you interpret something different, it is sorta like an <deleted>, everyone has one just like an opinion.  I have never told anyone how to file their tax forms, get an ID from the revenue dept of whatever, only what I think it proper for me.  We all have different income and each can report his as he wishes, I am not suggesting anything different.

[oldcpu]

26 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

We just filed our taxes online, using the Thai forms.  Took just under half an hour, as taking notes. 

 

All my remittances were prior 2024 savings, so not declared.  Listing only Thai sourced interest and dividends, and requesting a refund of tax withheld.

 

Logged in with pink ID number, selected file form 90.

 

 

I suspect your pink ID # has already been activated as a Thai TIN. 

 

When my and I tried that over a month ago, the pink ID # was rejected.  When later (in a phone call) my wife asked a Phuket RD official why the pink-ID # was rejected, he stated because mine was not yet activated as a Thai TIN.

 

Glad to read you had some success.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Interesting if any others can chime in on this:

 

The Thai wife (who has a company job) and I have been married for more than a decade after legally registering our marriage at the amphur office. In all that time, I've never worked in Thailand and never done any wire transfers of foreign funds into Thailand. Also never filed for a Thai tax ID, although one Thai bank where I keep my Immigration retirement extension deposit has for some years been deducting a 15% tax debit from my modest Thai interest earnings.

 

My Thai wife told me tonight (news to me) that for some years, my name automatically pops up each year when she goes to file her Thai taxes using the Revenue Department's website. Their system recognizes me by name as her husband (she claims she never volunteered that info, with her believing the RD system is somehow linked in with the government's marriage records), and their online system each year asks her to fill in my passport number, year of birth, nationality, and a few other details.

 

The wife also says the RD website asks in Thai if I work in Thailand, to which she correctly answers NO... Once she answers NO to that question, she said she completes her own Thai tax filing for her own job without any further info required/requested about me.

 

[anrcaccount]

3 minutes ago, Presnock said:

well that is a personal thing.  I am a firm believer in obeying the rules even if I think theyr are ridiculous.  I have read the rules and have stated my opinion.  Just because you interpret something different, it is sorta like an <deleted>, everyone has one just like an opinion.  I have never told anyone how to file their tax forms, get an ID from the revenue dept of whatever, only what I think it proper for me.  We all have different income and each can report his as he wishes, I am not suggesting anything different.

 

Hold up , I wasn't replying to you. I agree with what you said here in italics below ( apart from the TRD probably contacting you, they won't!) 

 

It was the reply to your post in bold below I was replying to. 

 

From what I have read, but also note I am not a tax expert by any means but if one does not have any ASSESSABLE income then there is no requirement to file nor get a tax ID number.  That is my opinion and I am sticking to it and not filing.  I realize that the TRD will probably contact me to advise them of the source of my monies and show that I do have an LTR visa unless they get that from immigration prior to contacting me.  But, best of luck to all in your endeavors this tax season...I do believe the worldwide income bit will continue to fester as it seems some powerful people don't like it.

 

The problem here is that whilst you know your remittance is not assessable, TRD doesn't, unless somebody tells them. All they see is a remittance that has no corresponding tax return, which is why I believe non assessable funds will need to be reported, as they are in other countries.

[NoDisplayName]

22 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

I suspect your pink ID # has already been activated as a Thai TIN. 

 

When my and I tried that over a month ago, the pink ID # was rejected.  When later (in a phone call) my wife asked a Phuket RD official why the pink-ID # was rejected, he stated because mine was not yet activated as a Thai TIN.

 

Glad to read you had some success.

 

Yes, I had a TIN from 2017 and pink ID from last year.  Online system did not recognize either.  Went to local/district TRD, they told us to use pink ID number to file tax returns.  TIN was cancelled, and they called the provincial office to have pinkie activated for online use.

[chiang mai]

4 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Of all the opinions you prolifically share, this is up there with the most ludicrous.

 

So you're now of the belief that every single remittance into Thailand will need to be reported? And, the TRD will 'see' these? 

 

IMO, beyond a joke.

 

Another poster, who has already filed their return (ignoring non assessable funds) stated it well in a post above:

 

 

"The taxpayer determines which of the funds remitted are income, and which portion of the income is assessable.  Only that self-determined assessable income would be declared.

 

With the current tax forms, there is no way to distinguish assessable vs. non-assessable funds.  Anything declared is considered to be assessable, and taxable."

 

 

TRD's job is "To collect all taxes". They  can't  always see Baht notes changing hands in the market place but they sure as heck can see wire transfers come from overseas, into somebody's account and they need to satisfy themselves as to whether those funds are assessable or not, reported or not.. Which do you think is easier to do, stand in a hot dusty market place watching vendors all day long and keeping a tally of their sales to see if they are reporting their income correctly, or, sitting behind a desk in an air con office with a phone and a printout from BOT showing wire transfers!

 

Give your constant criticisms of my observations a rest and STOP following me, I no longer have any interest in what you think. "most ludicrous", "beyond a joke" ....save your mock shock and horror for the amateur dramatic society, this is a debating and opinion forum so suck it up and get over it!

[chiang mai]

4 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

I know the Revenue Department boss has made these comments, but isn't this thread "scaremongering?" 

 

I mean, so many members think this tax issue will go away, and this thread is just scaring them. 

 

Maybe it should be deleted.  After all, if we don't know about it, we can't be scared of it. 

Scaremongering oh brightest star is when something radical is said that is either untrue, highly improbable or extremely unlikely. You know what KH, you're going back on my ignore list, again.

[aldriglikvid]

3 hours ago, anrcaccount said:

 

The problem here is that whilst you know your remittance is not assessable, TRD doesn't, unless somebody tells them. All they see is a remittance that has no corresponding tax return, which is why I believe non assessable funds will need to be reported, as they are in other countries.

I sincerely doubt that TRD have any - and I mean any - remittances on their computers as we speak. We're talking about million of transfers per week into Thailand from abroad. If you look at CRS reporting, which Thai financial institutions now have implemented, the TRD gets: 

- End of year balance
- Dividends & interest received 

- Investments (equity, bonds, mutual funds etc.) transactions 

I've worked in banking for a decade and I know not only my country's system very well: I know the adjacent countrys system as well. As per standard - international incoming or outgoing transfers are not reported to the RD. 

If the activity is suspicious or if the client is under investigation - it can be requested by the appropriate government agencies. 

I know of no country where the RD receives the clients incoming and outgoing international transfers on their final tax assessment. Happy to be corrected of which countrys that do. 

[chiang mai]

14 minutes ago, aldriglikvid said:

I sincerely doubt that TRD have any - and I mean any - remittances on their computers as we speak. We're talking about million of transfers per week into Thailand from abroad. If you look at CRS reporting, which Thai financial institutions now have implemented, the TRD gets: 

- End of year balance
- Dividends & interest received 

- Investments (equity, bonds, mutual funds etc.) transactions 

I've worked in banking for a decade and I know not only my country's system very well: I know the adjacent countrys system as well. As per standard - international incoming or outgoing transfers are not reported to the RD. 

If the activity is suspicious or if the client is under investigation - it can be requested by the appropriate government agencies. 

I know of no country where the RD receives the clients incoming and outgoing international transfers on their final tax assessment. Happy to be corrected of which countrys that do. 

All international funds transfers, inbound and outbound, are reported to BOT, the banks are BOT's agents in this respect. BOT needs this information to manage the currency, just as any central bank does, Do you really think that information is not shared or capable of being shared. And I also have worked in banking for over a decade plus I've worked for Big 4 for many years also. I think what you and one other outraged poster means is, God, I hope they don't see those transfers! But banks send TRD details of accounts and tax with held on interest, on EVERY account, that's how your tax refund is made possible, and you think they don't know about transfers, really!

[aldriglikvid]

42 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

All international funds transfers, inbound and outbound, are reported to BOT, the banks are BOT's agents in this respect. BOT needs this information to manage the currency, just as any central bank does, Do you really think that information is not shared or capable of being shared. And I also have worked in banking for over a decade plus I've worked for Big 4 for many years also. I think what you and one other outraged poster means is, God, I hope they don't see those transfers! But banks send TRD details of accounts and tax with held on interest, on EVERY account, that's how your tax refund is made possible, and you think they don't know about transfers, really!

That's a misrepresentation of what I said. Of course records are being kept. What I am saying is that TRD staff doesn't have a list of every unique TINs international transfers (incoming and outgoing) as we speak, and using that as a basis to send out tax records. Could you enlighten me in which country this is a standard?

What they have, however, is what I previously stated and you just confirmed: interest paid, dividends paid, year of end balance etc. 

I've reached out to all my previous colleagues: no one have heard of any country that have RDs that use incoming/outgoing international transfers as a basis on the annual tax declarations. 

[rattlesnake]

10 hours ago, chiang mai said:

It is YOU, the taxpayer, who files the tax return and must state whether the income you have declared is tax assessable or not, when it was earned and who MUST be able to prove what you say, if audited or required. So you better hope there's a way to prove it or you're in trouble.

 

https://sherrings.com/foreign-source-income-personal-tax-thailand.html

 

In the extremely unlikely event that it should happen, just pay the auditing agent 5,000 to make it go away, this is Thailand.

[chiang mai]

4 hours ago, aldriglikvid said:

That's a misrepresentation of what I said. Of course records are being kept. What I am saying is that TRD staff doesn't have a list of every unique TINs international transfers (incoming and outgoing) as we speak, and using that as a basis to send out tax records. Could you enlighten me in which country this is a standard?

What they have, however, is what I previously stated and you just confirmed: interest paid, dividends paid, year of end balance etc. 

I've reached out to all my previous colleagues: no one have heard of any country that have RDs that use incoming/outgoing international transfers as a basis on the annual tax declarations. 

4 hours ago, aldriglikvid said:

 

 

 

I also don't believe TRD staff has there own list of all inbound/outbound transactions, along with all the details ,but I do believe they will have easy and simple access to that information and that they will either sample the data or they will look for standouts and pursue them. Some people will say the information is private and cannot be shared, failing to realise that Western data privacy laws haven't been implemented here. 

 

Banks are the agents of the central bank, they implement central bank policy. Put this another way, the banks will do whatever the central bank asks, within the bounds of existing laws and boundaries. There is already an extensive flow of information between the TRD and the banks, via the central bank. Banks withhold tax on savings interest and on bonds and forward the account information, and the tax, to TRD. When you go to file your tax return electronically, you will enter the name and account number of one Thai bank where you hold an account and up pops details of all tax paid at all Thai banks. And as already said, inbound and outbound currency transactions all flow via the central bank or are reported to it out of necessity.

 

Lastly, a TIN for a Thai person is their ID card number, TIN's issued to foreigners fulfil a similar purpose. The Thai ID card number follows them everywhere and is embedded in every type of financial transaction, it is how the individual is identified in all things. You say you don't believe the TRD has a list of "every unique TINs international transfers (incoming and outgoing)" yet the banks do and the central bank does, so why not? 

[Lacessit]

10 hours ago, chiang mai said:

If push came to shove and somebody said, "prove it, for the past ten years", could you?

I could prove it for 7 years. That's how long I keep my financial and tax records.

 

AFAIK all I have to do is prove my savings in banks and financial institutions as at 31/12/2023. Done and dusted.

[chiang mai]

1 minute ago, Lacessit said:

I could prove it for 7 years. That's how long I keep my financial and tax records.

 

AFAIK all I have to do is prove my savings in banks and financial institutions as at 31/12/2023. Done and dusted.

I'm sure I could but it would be a slog, a real long haul to do it.

[Lacessit]

7 minutes ago, chiang mai said:

I'm sure I could but it would be a slog, a real long haul to do it.

Do you mean a slog for you to retrieve your records, or a slog to prove them to the TRD?