Revenue Department boss calls on tax residents in Thailand to file 2024 returns by March 31

[oldcpu]

6 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

The basis of my logic comes from ( apart from other countries )

 

Fair enough.  But for the moment I believe Thai tax law and Thai ministerial regulations (which include DTA) are the defining aspect here.  And they are clear that section-42 exempt income (in the Thai tax code) is not to be included in tax calculations.  And accordingly (?) Thai RD has deliberately (?) not included any place in their tax forms for such section-42 exempt income.

 

Again - I will continue to monitor this  -  and I propose you and others do so also. 

 

I appreciate your remaining very civil in this exchange of views.  I will attempt to try (even harder) to do the same.

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Far enough.  But for the moment I believe Thai tax law and Thai ministerial regulations (which include DTA) are the defining aspect here. 

 

Yes, I agree, right up until 31 March 2023.

 

I am also trying to point out that there is now another overarching set of Laws and rules that pertain to CRS that actually trump thai domestic tax laws ( To a certain extent, but certainly in terms of overseas remittances )

[NoDisplayName]

22 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

None of this is in dispute

 

I am asking how something can have an exemption to thai tax, or a tax credit on thai tax, if one has not filed a tax return.

 

If you do not file a tax return, then neither a tax credit or an exemption exists.

 

Sure it does.

 

If you earned overseas income in 2024 but did not remit it, that income is exempt.  You don't need to file a Thai tax return on exempt foreign income for the income to be exempt.  The exemption applies whether or not you file.  

 

If you paid foreign tax on your 2024 overseas income, AND you remit it to Thailand, AND it is not exempt, THEN you can claim a credit, but only IF you file a Thai tax return.  If you don't file because you are below your TEDA, you can't claim the credit to which you are entitled.  If you don't remit the funds, you can't claim the credit you would be entitled to if you did remit the funds.  The tax credit exists regardless of whether you claim it.

 

When I pay Thai tax on my Thai-sourced interest and dividends, the banks/brokerages withhold tax.  I am entitled to a tax credit on my US tax for tax paid to Thailand.  If I do not file Thai tax to claim a refund of taxes withheld, I am entitled to a foreign tax credit on my IRS 1040.  If my US tax bill is $0 before I reach the section allowing the foreign tax credit, I am unable to take the credit, but the entitlement to the credit still exists.

[jwest10]

11 minutes ago, jonesthepost said:

 

Please let us know the outcome as many people are agreeing with what others saying but too many experts but not that I am
Good luck

[Presnock]

19 hours ago, jwest10 said:

Who knows, as usual?

This has been batted back and forth from single page day - In trd english, it states rule #1 obtaining a Thai tax id number in order to file taxes here, one must do so within 60 days of remitting/having assessable income in Thailand.  I do not nor will I have any assessable income by definition so I cannot supposedly obtain a tax id number without possibly fighting for it so I will not since like I said I don't have ny assessable income here - Ionly have a US government civil service pension whick can only be taxed in the US and not elsewhere through the DTA between Thailand and the US (and possibly other countries too but I don't read other countries as nothing there pertains to me and my situation.  Unless there is other changes to the tax Act, I also have an LTR which was advertized as not being taxed on my "foreign" income.  So, based on these documents, my feeling is that I cannot nor should I ever get a tax id locally unless the Thai/or US govt changes their interpretation of the tax law.  Once that happens and the revenue department advises me and the public of these changes (just he notification from these offices could take years based on  this year's notices) and says that ALL foreigners must obtain a tax ID and file the correct tax forms, then I will consider my options.  

[Presnock]

21 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Siam legal ( if you ignore that they are a business )

 

 

https://www.siam-legal.com/Business-in-Thailand/thailand-income-tax-for-foreigners.php

 

What the RD says about DTA's

 

 

 

I dont think anyone would argue over the reason for DTA's.

 

2 methods of ensuring double taxation does not take place

 

 

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/21973.html

 

I can find nothing anywhere, that specifically states that foreign tax residents are exempt from tax filing.

 

Or that any overseas monies / incomes remitted to Thailand are classed as non- assessable.

Duh, if you have no assessable income, can't obtain an id number from the TRD then how can you file a tax return?  Rule number 1 if you haven't read it in the rules of getting a tax id from the TRD says you must have assessble income...

[oldcpu]

24 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Quote

Far enough.  But for the moment I believe Thai tax law and Thai ministerial regulations (which include DTA) are the defining aspect here. 

Yes, I agree, right up until 31 March 2023.

 

I am also trying to point out that there is now another overarching set of Laws and rules that pertain to CRS that actually trump thai domestic tax laws ( To a certain extent, but certainly in terms of overseas remittances )

 

I was attempting to be succinct by using the word "here".

 

Clearly there  are cases wrt CRS and other aspects that are relevant.

 

But that is NOT relevant in regards to Thai law as written and how it impacts the average expat in following Thai law  in the context/scope of our discussion. Regardless as to what is in CRS, I will wager for the average expat 'Joe' in Thailand, if they follow Thai law, they will be ok.  At most they may have the Thai RD come back to them and state "a recent CRS agreement" requires the following ... blah ... blah ... blah.

 

But for now I believe it very important that Thai law (section-42) and Thai ministerial regulations (as further defined by paw-161/162 and Thai DTA) are most relevant here - and not what at most is what I see as vague statement about CRS with no specific reference as to how that requires an expat in Thailand to File a Thai tax return and how that requires a Thailand expat to report income on a Thai tax return.  IMHO that CRS reference is non-sequitur. 

 

Thai law is what needs to be followed unless a very specific exception can be pointed out - and I see no such CRS specific exception.

 

 

[Presnock]

17 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

That's part of my disappointment with the Siam-legal  examples. They should cover such from a tax payment, tax exemption, tax assessability, and tax submission requirement perspective.  They do none of that.

The more confused the tax agencies can make the tax filing situation, the better chances of them getting one's filing business.

[oldcpu]

9 minutes ago, Presnock said:

Duh, if you have no assessable income, can't obtain an id number from the TRD then how can you file a tax return?  Rule number 1 if you haven't read it in the rules of getting a tax id from the TRD says you must have assessble income...

 

On the other side of the coin, ... I suspect if I really wanted to file a Thai tax return, that I could try harder. 

 

I type that noting the Phuket RD have already told me for my specific case that I need not file a tax return (for tax year 2024)) and further that the Phuket RD will not (yet) activate my pink-ID number for an online tax submission.

 

I probably could (to file a tax return) print out the tax-year-2023 tax form (since tax year 2024 is not ready yet), fill it in (using my pink-ID# as the TIN), and drive 40 minutes to the Phuket RD office, and sit in the office all day, while they tried to figure out what out to do with me, given I had no assessable income to place on the Thai tax return form. You know.  A form with all zeros.

 

... or they may just kick me out of their office after 10 minutes - shaking their heads at the crazy foreigner. 😄

 

[Presnock]

1 minute ago, oldcpu said:

 

On the other side of the coin, ... I suspect if I really wanted to file a Thai tax return, that I could try harder. 

 

I type that noting the Phuket RD have already told me for my specific case that I need not file a tax return (for tax year 2024)) and further that the Phuket RD will not (yet) activate my pink-ID number for an online tax submission.

 

I probably could (to file a tax return) print out the tax-year-2023 tax form (since tax year 2024 is not ready yet), fill it in (using my pink-ID), and drive 40 minutes to the Phuket RD office, and sit in the office all day, while they tried to figure out what out to do with me, given I had no assessable income to place on the Thai tax return form. You know.  A form with all zeros.

 

... or they may just kick me out of their office after 10 minutes - shaking their heads at the crazy foreigner. 😄

 

Well if one wants to file a tax form here, they could probably jump through enough hoops to file even with no chance of getting a refund.  As the saying foes here -"be my guest" and enjoy.

[jwest10]

That's convenient! Since your UK State Pension is transferred directly to your Thai account, it simplifies things a bit. Under the Double Taxation Agreement (DTA) between Thailand and the UK, you don't need to include your UK State Pension in your Thai tax forms, even if it's transferred to your Thai account.

It's great that you have a plan in place. If you have any more questions or need further assistance, feel free to ask. I'm here to help!

From DTA agreement Thailand / uk  confirmed by the Governments

[Presnock]

5 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Funny how so many people cannot grasp that concept. Or perhaps its more a case of not wanting to grasp that concept.

 

Under the DTA section of the RC, it lists 2 methods of how people will not be double taxed.

 

1. The exemption method.

 

2. The tax credit method.

 

It does not take the brains of an Arch Bishop to work out what sources of income is being referred to in DTA's.  Neither does it take the brains of an Arch Bishop to work out that you would need to file a tax return for either method to then be applied to your tax filing.

 

Assessable / non assessable income, I believe are terms that apply to Thai domestic tax policy, ie, people who work and pay tax in Thailand.

 

Nowhere, have I seen, written down,  that these terms apply to income remitted from overseas.

If however, the TRD gets enough info from you local Thai bank about remittances, they can easily ask you why you didn't file - you then should have made plans to provide proof of the non-assessablility of your remittances.  Easy in my case.

[oldcpu]

3 minutes ago, Presnock said:

If however, the TRD gets enough info from you local Thai bank about remittances, they can easily ask you why you didn't file - you then should have made plans to provide proof of the non-assessablility of your remittances.  Easy in my case.

 

 That's probably a good approach for all of us - keep records to prove our legal compliance.

[jwest10]

4 minutes ago, Presnock said:

If however, the TRD gets enough info from you local Thai bank about remittances, they can easily ask you why you didn't file - you then should have made plans to provide proof of the non-assessablility of your remittances.  Easy in my case.

Yes indeed can prove not only paper calculations and can prove later on when update my Thai bank passbookm regarding State Pension from the UK.

[Presnock]

Just now, jwest10 said:

Yes indeed can prove not only paper calculations and can prove later on when update my Thai bank passbookm regarding State Pension from the UK.

believe that the TRD will require some kind of govt document showing pension exemption or LTR showing BOI definition of exemption.

[Presnock]

2 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

 Are you sure about this?  Is it not possible you are needlessly complicating the life of the Thai RD (to evaluate a tax return) when not needed?

 

Thai Tax code section-42 which lists income that is not to be included in a tax calculation, where item-17 refers to "Income prescribed for exemption by Ministerial regulations".

 

So the question then is your pension exempt taxation by Ministerial regulations? Note Royal Decree-18 (issued under the Revenue Code regarding Revenue Tax exemption in B.E. 2505(1962) which in essence notes DTAs need to be adhered to (and could result in exempt income to avoid double taxation).  

 

So if the DTA of your pension source country states it is tax exempt, and if the Thai Tax code section-42 states it shall not be included in a tax calculation, where on a tax form do you list such income that is not to be included in a tax calculation?

 

You can add that pension to your tax form, but what are the odds that the local RD are not aware of the details of your country's DTA with Thailand, and they tax you on such, when in fact the DTA claims the income is exempt and should not be included in a tax calculation? 

 

By filing a tax return and inserting such exempt income, are you not complicating the life of the Thai tax authorities?

 

Don't get me wrong - I don't' have the answer here ... I only have questions.

 

 

sounds more like complication of oneself as the TRD is only doing what they get paid to do 

[jwest10]

2 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

 That's probably a good approach for all of us - keep records to prove our legal compliance.

Agreed 

[Presnock]

1 hour ago, The Cyclist said:

 

The above is not in dispute

 

Exempt taxation is not the same as exempt reporting / filing. 

 

And Section 40 ( 1 ) contains the word pensions.

 

The revenue code goes on to say this about income contained within DTA's to avoid double taxation.

 

 

 

To have something exempted, or to have a tax credit awarded, suggests that you have to actually file a tax return.

Glad that the US at least if not other countries, specifically says in the DTA taxable "only in contractng country" and in my case, my pension is already taxed by the US govt

[jwest10]

2 minutes ago, Presnock said:

believe that the TRD will require some kind of govt document showing pension exemption or LTR showing BOI definition of exemption.

Some  monies go way back but possibly to 1st Jan 2024

[The Cyclist]

26 minutes ago, Presnock said:

Duh, if you have no assessable income, can't obtain an id number from the TRD then how can you file a tax return?  Rule number 1 if you haven't read it in the rules of getting a tax id from the TRD says you must have assessble income...

 

Duh ?
 

What age are you ?

 

There have been numerous examples of people getting Thai TIN's due to their home.banks requesting them.

 

So there is a singular example of where the what appears to be written in the Revenue Code is wrong.

[Presnock]

5 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

Some  monies go way back but possibly to 1st Jan 2024

Well I don't know about other countries govt but the US OPM who pays my pension provides yearly as ell as monthly documentaton of my annuity and my stateside bank provides me with a monthly message stating from what office my pension was received.  So if necessarfy I can easily provide a copy of those as I keep them for my tax records of at leat 5 years.

[oldcpu]

8 minutes ago, Presnock said:

believe that the TRD will require some kind of govt document showing pension exemption or LTR showing BOI definition of exemption.

 

Quite possible some TBD time in the future.

 

But at present?   I don't think so yet.

 

When trying to obtain a Tax ID from Phuket RD last year (to support a possible 2024 tax return submission - which for my case they noted a Thai tax return not required as my 2024 tax year remittance to Thailand would be 0-THB AND I had no Thai income ), and when they were asked about LTR visa tax exemption, their reply?  They never heard of an LTR visa. 

 

They advised they would call back.  They never did call back. 

 

I assume that is because they had more important things that demanded their attention.

[Presnock]

Just now, oldcpu said:

 

Quite possible some TBD time in the future.

 

But at present?   I don't think so yet.

 

When trying to obtain a Tax ID from Phuket RD last year (to support a possible 2024 tax return submission - which for my case they noted a Thai tax return not required as my 2024 tax year remittance to Thailand would be 0-THB AND I had no Thai income ), and when they were asked about LTR visa tax exemption, their reply?  They never heard of an LTR visa. 

 

They advised they would call back.  They never did call back. 

 

I assume that is because they had more important things that demanded their attention.

probably because although the LTR has been around longer than this year, anyone having exempt foreign income would probably not have reported any.  But the work permit LTR has local income so the TRD should have seen the LTR previously when that person filed for the local taxes.

[oldcpu]

6 minutes ago, Presnock said:

probably because although the LTR has been around longer than this year, anyone having exempt foreign income would probably not have reported any.  But the work permit LTR has local income so the TRD should have seen the LTR previously when that person filed for the local taxes.

 

Yes, there is an tax return form (for tax year 2022 (?) and I assume later years) where LTR Highly Skilled Professional visa (only) is specifically mentioned in the form, but thus far no such mention in a Thai tax form for LTR-WP nor LTR-WGC nor LTR-WFTP visas.

 

[jwest10]

8 minutes ago, Presnock said:

Well I don't know about other countries govt but the US OPM who pays my pension provides yearly as ell as monthly documentaton of my annuity and my stateside bank provides me with a monthly message stating from what office my pension was received.  So if necessarfy I can easily provide a copy of those as I keep them for my tax records of at leat 5 years.

Yes us British who are of course on a frozen State Pension(who none of us) were aware of but can show original  Government letters and of course as some get it directly paid in to our bank accounts here and it fluctuates due the enchange rate and of course when we get our bank passbooks updated.

[JimGant]

45 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

Under the Double Taxation Agreement (DTA) between Thailand and the UK, you don't need to include your UK State Pension in your Thai tax forms

That doesn't quite square with this:

 

Quote

State Pensions

The UK state pension is a regular payment from the UK government based on an individual’s National Insurance contributions. Unlike other pensions, state pensions are generally lower in value but are still classed as ‘foreign sourced income’ and fully taxable in Thailand when remitted. There is no specific relief under the UK-Thailand Double Taxation Agreement for state pensions, making them fully assessable under Thai tax laws.

https://www.expattaxthailand.com/understanding-uk-pensions-tax-thailand/

Not that Expatthai gets it right every time......

[jwest10]

25 minutes ago, JimGant said:

That doesn't quite square with this:

 

Not that Expatthai gets it right every time......

Who does to be honest? But definitely not them and think many only interested in your money and that is if one has any!!!
It is sent directly by the DWP and ok remitted by them but not me!! 
Apparently that is the difference as the DWP send the monies and yes read the DTA's as well. 

[Will B Good]

My plan....anyone see any holes in this?

 

Open a new bank account in the UK to receive my state pension only......use that account for my 400,00 baht each year (marriage extension).....so tax free.

 

Any/all additional cash to be gifted to the wife's account from another UK account....government pension, company pension, rental income, investment income.......also tax free in Thailand.

 

Do I still need to do a tax return in Thailand???

[jwest10]

9 minutes ago, Will B Good said:

My plan....anyone see any holes in this?

 

Open a new bank account in the UK to receive my state pension only......use that account for my 400,00 baht each year (marriage extension).....so tax free.

 

Any/all additional cash to be gifted to the wife's account from another UK account....government pension, company pension, rental income, investment income.......also tax free in Thailand.

 

Do I still need to do a tax return in Thailand???

Is your wife's account in Thailand and assume it stands as a gift whenever or if these forms materials but don't bank on this. 
However, the 400K surely must be in your own name and in a Thai bank and frankly do not know.

[Will B Good]

7 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

Is your wife's account in Thailand and assume it stands as a gift whenever or if these forms materials but don't bank on this. 
However, the 400K surely must be in your own name and in a Thai bank and frankly do not know.

 

Yes, Thai wife, Thai bank account.....and I have my own Thai bank account.

 

Someone did suggest another way........just stick the 400k in my Thai account and 'forget about it'......just use that account every year for the extension based on marriage......but still keep the 'gift to the wife' idea going to cover our living expenses.