Revenue Department boss calls on tax residents in Thailand to file 2024 returns by March 31

[oldcpu]

27 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Actually, it wont. It will comply completely or leave.

 And that was exactly my point. 

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, oldcpu said:

You stated "  it is not Thailand calling the shots, it is a supranational organisation called the OECD. "  ( I applied the 'bold' / 'italics' )

 

In relation to CRS, that is 100% correct.

 

Thailand joined CRS, an EOCD baby, CRS did not join Thailand.

 

Countries join International Agreements, International Agreementsdo not join Countries.

 

4 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

I pointed out that Thailand is also calling the shots as a sovereign nation.   Thailand can leave any time it wants and OECD can not call the shots and say Thailand can not leave.  Thailand can tell OECD to 'stuff it' ANYTIME and leave any time it wants.

 

Why are you trying to conflate 2 different things ?
 

As long as Thailand remains a member of CRS, then the OECD calls the shots.

 

Thailand can call the shots by leaving The international agreement known as CRS.

 

6 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Stating it is OECD calling the shots is simply an exaggeration when sovereign nations are involved.

 

Go and watch the video Mr Harts video that I posted this morning. Even he gets it, that you lose some Sovereignty when you join supranational organisations.

 

Which is perhaps why the US might not have been rushing into CRS.

[oldcpu]

33 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

Som yet again from another source but from someone who works at the Revenue stating yet again you can not get a Tin as you have no employment in Thailand and yes knew about my personal  circumstances and my income is below the current thesholds of 500 or 560K 

Mentioned have a pink card ID and stated perhaps you can use it but again it is not necessary and also clarified that my UK frozen State Pension is sent by DWP directly to my bank here and yes this does not have to be reported but in your case no tax form is required,
 

 

1st - congrats on getting the extension on your permission to stay.

 

i think most agree that if one's total remitted + local  income is below the filing threshold for Thailand, then there is no requirement to file a Thai tax return (nor obtain a TIN).   Where we have discussion on this thread often tends to be if income is considered non-assessable and hence debated if it is not reportable.

 

Sorry to read re: the UK policy about on NO inflation increments to non-residents of the UK who have a UK pension. That reads to me to be unfair - especially for any who may also still be paying taxes to the UK.

 

Best wishes.

[oldcpu]

4 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

In relation to CRS, that is 100% correct.

 

 

Then you need to be more specific in how you type such - as opposed to a general statement without such, especially in the context of this thread where an assortment of taxation aspects are being discussed.

 

 

4 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

As long as Thailand remains a member of CRS, then the OECD calls the shots.

 

No. Thailand can leave any time.  Again - you exaggerate.  Thailand can decide how it goes about implementing the requirements (as long as it meets such) and OECD can not stop Thailand from leaving if Thailand choses.  Thailand calls the shots in such cases.

 

Again - you exaggerated.

[The Cyclist]

30 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Again - you exaggerated.

 

Yes, I know, everything is an exaggeration.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/FATCA_File/crs/Thailand_CRS_Guidance_280823.pdf

 

Go to the very end of this CRS publication on the RD website, and then tell me why it has Canadian Residency forms attached ?

 

Could it be, that we in Thailand that are tax residents, will very soon be filling in the various forms that other CRS Countries are required to complete, including foreign income ?
 

Nah, that isn't going to happen, this is Thailand.

[oldcpu]

15 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Could it be, that we in Thailand that are tax residents, will very soon be filling in the various forms that other CRS Countries are required to complete, including foreign income ?
 

Nah, that isn't going to happen, this is Thailand.

 

Who knows?  If it is a known CRS requirement then Thailand will either have to comply or get CRS to ignore the non-compliance, or get CRS to openly (or quietly) accept non-compliance, or Thailand simply leave. 

 

I speculate you won't read of many outside of the global revenue departments weeping if Thailand were to leave.

 

As you state ... This is Thailand.

[jwest10]

1 hour ago, jwest10 said:

Yes, I am not going to repeat myself and if you would like to see my posts feel free to do so.
However yet again there is no change as of today in what I have stated quite a few times before.

I know slightly different issues but was half expecting a question on my visit to my Immigration office this morning about this tax issue and yes the normal procedure but again had trouble locating our marriage translated certificate and thought I had passport photos from past years.
In any case had to go and get new ones but got my permission to stay for another year all done and dusted and yes we all worry about our families and until your passport is stamped it is a stressful event.

Som yet again from another source but from someone who works at the Revenue stating yet again you can not get a Tin as you have no employment in Thailand and yes knew about my personal  circumstances and my income is below the current thesholds of 500 or 560K 
Mentioned have a pink card ID and stated perhaps you can use it but again it is not necessary and also clarified that my UK frozen State Pension is sent by DWP directly to my bank here and yes this does not have to be reported but in your case no tax form is required,


 

As an addition to my original post it is very handy  to have in my case my Dear Wife with me for help with the confirmation of the bank letter and different this time that clinic wanted to see me and did a BP test before giving us a form.
Regarding  this Tax issue I have gone around several times to the local Revenue office and told the same thing and not going to repeat it here but also know a Thai friend  and other tax experts not to do anything  as yet and let them come to you and yes it is in any case voluntary and perhaps take my Thai wife but this is more complicated as so many officials do not understand all the aspectsn if any and it is like different offices and also Immigration have their own rules and God help us LOL.
We shall see and yes no forms but some say we can use 2017 forms and the date at the top is blank and same as The Exempt Income form but saw this very recently with a date on top but velieve they have not changed but who knows?
Very handy at Immigration too and the staff were wonderful as usual.
 

[oldcpu]

8 minutes ago, jwest10 said:

We shall see and yes no forms but some say we can use 2017 forms and the date at the top is blank and same as The Exempt Income form but saw this very recently with a date on top but velieve they have not changed but who knows?
 

 

I checked out the 2017 to 2023 Thai tax forms in English language.  The 2017 to 2020 have the year hard printed on the first page.  The 2021 to 2023 instead have an empty box for one to enter the year (on the first page), BUT the exemption page (at end of the form) has the year (for 2021 to 2023 English language Thai tax forms) hard printed on that page.

 

So many of us are curious whether the 2024 English-language Thai tax forms will be any different.  I am becoming cynical and  I suspect there may not be much change.

[KhunHeineken]

2 hours ago, oldcpu said:

i think most agree that if one's total remitted + local  income is below the filing threshold for Thailand, then there is no requirement to file a Thai tax return (nor obtain a TIN). 

I think most expats remit funds above the threshold.  Most pensions from around the world are above the threshold.     

[jwest10]

20 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

I think most expats remit funds above the threshold.  Most pensions from around the world are above the threshold.     

My guess they do not but who knows as no one knows what is anymore!!!
If one is above the figures and pleased for you so more tax to pay!!!

 

[NoDisplayName]

3 hours ago, oldcpu said:

Do I have that wrong?  (I might have).

 

But if I have it right, then I think it is in some aspects very different from the CRS.

 

And for another thing, FATCA works similarly, in that us subjects of Uncle Sam must self-identify when opening accounts in foreign countries.  I opened an account at Krung Thai last month and was handed an IRS form to fill out.  Same as with CRS, the financial institution needs to know where we are tax resident, which would simply tell them what code to put in the "other tax residence" field in the annual report of account information.  TRD/BOT would then have that residence code for their FATCA/CRS reports, or may be used to respond to requests from foreign tax agencies.

 

Interestingly, I was required to fill out FATCA forms when opening bank accounts in mainland China in the ~2010.  Opened three accounts ~2018 at three different banks, and was not given IRS papers to sign. 

 

China signed onto CRS in 2015, and implemented a couple years later.  They do not, however, submit to FATCA overreach.

 

As to reporting in the USA, i have to declare worldwide income, remitted or not.  I then have opportunities to claim exemptions and TDA benefits.  There is no provision to declare remittances.

 

Unknown how Thailand will implement worldwide taxation, if ever.  China does, but tax does not go into effect for foreigners until they have spent 5 years in country tax resident.  Good news is, the clock resets anytime they spend 30+ days outside.  Would that Thailand would legislate that!

[aluc]

Just a quick update about my trip today to Thalang revenue department, Phuket.

 

In the morning I made a call to office, to ask what documents are required  for foreigner to get Thai Tax ID.

Copy of passport, visa, last entry stamp, lease agreement, tabian baan, landlord tabian baan, landlord Thai ID, 1 year statement from Thai bank, marriage certificate. Just few hours later all the papers were in my possession and I went to revenue department.

 

To my surprise office was completely empty. Thai lady took a look to my documents and started to study my 1 year statement from bank. They were surprised that I had transferred only 150k to my bank account last year, so they asked me to explain where are the rest of money is coming from. I showed receipt from Wise of 2023 with a lot bigger transfers and that was accepted. Also I had to explain all the smaller deposits to my account, but 99% of them were from my wife`s account.

Few more questions about my employment and why I need Thai tax ID. I said I want to open brokerage account and for that I need Thai tax ID.

All together it took about 40 minutes, I received my Thai tax ID, and P.N.D.90 form, which officer filled all by herself, officer also registered me to online system, gave me password for this and said see you next year.

 

0 baht paid.

[oldcpu]

56 minutes ago, aluc said:

Just a quick update about my trip today to Thalang revenue department, Phuket.

 

In the morning I made a call to office, to ask what documents are required  for foreigner to get Thai Tax ID.

Copy of passport, visa, last entry stamp, lease agreement, tabian baan, landlord tabian baan, landlord Thai ID, 1 year statement from Thai bank, marriage certificate. Just few hours later all the papers were in my possession and I went to revenue department.

 

To my surprise office was completely empty. Thai lady took a look to my documents and started to study my 1 year statement from bank. They were surprised that I had transferred only 150k to my bank account last year, so they asked me to explain where are the rest of money is coming from. I showed receipt from Wise of 2023 with a lot bigger transfers and that was accepted. Also I had to explain all the smaller deposits to my account, but 99% of them were from my wife`s account.

Few more questions about my employment and why I need Thai tax ID. I said I want to open brokerage account and for that I need Thai tax ID.

All together it took about 40 minutes, I received my Thai tax ID, and P.N.D.90 form, which officer filled all by herself, officer also registered me to online system, gave me password for this and said see you next year.

 

 

Thanks for that update.

 

Most interesting.  My Thai wife applied to obtain a Thai Tax ID Number (TIN) for myself and failed with the Phuket office, although I suspect if she and I had adopted your approach she would have succeeded.

 

My wife applied online (which goes from Bangkok to Phuket and ended up chatting with a Phuket RD official on the phone). 

 

When my wife told the Phuket RD official I was bringing no money into Thailand (which is true) and that I have no Thai income (which is true) and that I am living off savings in Thailand brought in when I was a non-resident to Thailand (which is true), and the official denied me a TIN. That mostly ended the discussion (although there were some more aspects to the phone chat with the RD official (all in Thai language)).

 

What my wife should have followed up with was I could use a Thai TIN as a foreign brokerage account was asking for my Thai TIN.  (In the end I provided the foreign brokerage my Pink-ID #, with a written and signed caveat by me that the Pink-ID# was not yet activated as a tax ID).

 

Reading your post, I had expected it would be a P.N.D.91 and not P.N.D.90 form the tax official would fill in, and clearly I may have my understanding wrong and to satisfy my curiousity need to go back and look at the forms again.

 

Out of curiosity, is this for a foreign brokerage?

 

 

[TheAppletons]

4 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Yes, I know, everything is an exaggeration.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/FATCA_File/crs/Thailand_CRS_Guidance_280823.pdf

 

Go to the very end of this CRS publication on the RD website, and then tell me why it has Canadian Residency forms attached ?

 

Could it be, that we in Thailand that are tax residents, will very soon be filling in the various forms that other CRS Countries are required to complete, including foreign income ?
 

Nah, that isn't going to happen, this is Thailand.

 

   Beat that drum, sweetie, beat it hard.  Kah-luless.  (As if that needed to be stated.) 

 

   We understand your frustration:

 

    "However, scientific research has found evidence to support that cycling can in fact contribute to Erectile Dysfunction issues amongst men."

 

  https://edclinics.co.uk/advice/can-cycling-cause-erectile-dysfunction/ 

 

 

 

   

[MikeN]

1 hour ago, aluc said:

Just a quick update about my trip today to Thalang revenue department, Phuket.

 

In the morning I made a call to office, to ask what documents are required  for foreigner to get Thai Tax ID.

Copy of passport, visa, last entry stamp, lease agreement, tabian baan, landlord tabian baan, landlord Thai ID, 1 year statement from Thai bank, marriage certificate. Just few hours later all the papers were in my possession and I went to revenue department.

Oh lord...I had to get a TIN to keep my Aussie bank happy, all my local revenue office wanted was a copy of my passport data page ! I would have been in and out in 10 minutes or less if they had been able to get the tiny tax card lined up properly in the A3 size printer. As it was they wasted 10 minutes and 3 or 4 cards getting the alignment right.

[MartinBangkok]

6 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

A minor point .. Canada requires anyone who submits a Canadian tax form to Revenue Canada, whether or not a Canadian resident, to state on that tax form their total global income.   And if one has Canadian income above a specific (pretty small) threshold, that person needs to file a Canadian tax return, even if they are not a Canadian tax resident.

 

I am not stating that is an approach other countries should adopt.  I am just noting that is what Canada does.

 

For years, when I lived/worked in Europe, I had no Canadian income, so i did not have to submit a Canadian tax form.  However once I started receiving Old Age Security and Pension income from Canada that changed, and a Canadian tax return was / is required.

 

Death and taxes.  Something one can not escape.

"Death and taxes.  Something one can not escape"

For insane new taxes: Only if you are a stupid, submissive and gullible sheep.

[oldcpu]

11 minutes ago, MartinBangkok said:

"Death and taxes.  Something one can not escape"

For insane new taxes: Only if you are a stupid, submissive and gullible sheep.

 

Most of us try our best.  In my case I have a LTR-WP visa and for next few years I plan on bringing no money into Thailand (unless situation clarifies better in next few years).  I plan on no Thai income.  But not everyone has the luxury of my approach.  Those in Thailand with families and less money don't have as many easy options.

[KhunHeineken]

1 hour ago, MikeN said:

Oh lord...I had to get a TIN to keep my Aussie bank happy

Name of Aussie bank????

 

[MikeN]

1 hour ago, KhunHeineken said:

Name of Aussie bank????

 

Westpac..."we think you are living overseas, prove otherwise or we freeze your bank account until you supply tax ID, and fill in these FATCA/CRS forms". Also have a backup account with NAB, who haven't said a thing...yet.

[redwood1]

4 hours ago, aluc said:

Just a quick update about my trip today to Thalang revenue department, Phuket.

 

In the morning I made a call to office, to ask what documents are required  for foreigner to get Thai Tax ID.

Copy of passport, visa, last entry stamp, lease agreement, tabian baan, landlord tabian baan, landlord Thai ID, 1 year statement from Thai bank, marriage certificate. Just few hours later all the papers were in my possession and I went to revenue department.

 

To my surprise office was completely empty. Thai lady took a look to my documents and started to study my 1 year statement from bank. They were surprised that I had transferred only 150k to my bank account last year, so they asked me to explain where are the rest of money is coming from. I showed receipt from Wise of 2023 with a lot bigger transfers and that was accepted. Also I had to explain all the smaller deposits to my account, but 99% of them were from my wife`s account.

Few more questions about my employment and why I need Thai tax ID. I said I want to open brokerage account and for that I need Thai tax ID.

All together it took about 40 minutes, I received my Thai tax ID, and P.N.D.90 form, which officer filled all by herself, officer also registered me to online system, gave me password for this and said see you next year.

 

0 baht paid.

 

To my surprise office was completely empty.

 

This raises my hope for humanity..... 

 

[TheAppletons]

".......and therefore deemed by the Thai Revenue Dept to be a social security payment, in her opinion it was not assessable. She, for the sake of clarity, telephoned the Provincial Revenue Office and their response was that it was not assessable and therefore there was NO requirement for me to include any portion of it in my tax return."

 

As expected, TRD does not expect tax residents to show non-assessable income on their tax returns.

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1348698-todays-experience-trying-to-obtain-my-tax-refund/#comment-19511729

 

 

[CharlesHolzhauer]

9 hours ago, MikeN said:

Oh lord...I had to get a TIN to keep my Aussie bank happy

 

7 hours ago, MikeN said:

Westpac..."we think you are living overseas, prove otherwise or we freeze your bank account until you supply tax ID, and fill in these FATCA/CRS forms". Also have a backup account with NAB, who haven't said a thing...yet.

Westpac never emailed you a 'Tax Status Declaration Form'?

[aluc]

10 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

 

Out of curiosity, is this for a foreign brokerage?

 

 

Yes, Interactive brokers

[jwest10]

Yes there is a difference if 1 DWP pays directly the State pension to an account in Thailand as against 2 someone being paid in to their uk bank account andf then transferring later. In directly do not have to include on thiese non-existant tax forms

You're absolutely right. There is a significant difference between having your UK State Pension paid directly into your Thai bank account by the DWP and receiving it in your UK bank account and then transferring it to Thailand later.

1. Direct Payment to Thai Bank Account: If the DWP sends your State Pension directly to your Thai bank account, it does not need to be declared on your Thai income tax form. This is because it is considered a "frozen" pension and is not accessible income in Thailand.

2. Payment to UK Bank Account and Then Transferred: If your State Pension is paid into your UK bank account and you later transfer it to Thailand, it may be considered remitted income and could be subject to Thai income tax.

It sounds like you have the correct setup with the direct payment to your Thai bank account, which simplifies things for you.

If you have any more questions or need further assistance, feel free to ask!

 

 

 

Message Copilot

[oldcpu]

9 hours ago, TheAppletons said:

".......and therefore deemed by the Thai Revenue Dept to be a social security payment, in her opinion it was not assessable. She, for the sake of clarity, telephoned the Provincial Revenue Office and their response was that it was not assessable and therefore there was NO requirement for me to include any portion of it in my tax return."

 

As expected, TRD does not expect tax residents to show non-assessable income on their tax returns.

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1348698-todays-experience-trying-to-obtain-my-tax-refund/#comment-19511729

 

 

 

Thanks for this.

 

Assuming the local/provincial Thai RD were correct (and I have no reason to believe they were not correct), I suspect this goes beyond just the Australian case noted in the post.

 

For example , the Thai-Canada DTA makes it clear pensions (and similar remunerations) sourced in Canada are to be exclusively taxed in Canada. Thailand under the DTA has no taxation rights on those specific noted incomes.

 

I suspect a consistent policy (with the Thai-Australia noted one) would mean that the Canadian pensions/similar-remunerations are not to be included on the Thai taxation forms.  Having typed that, I note as of the 2023 Thai tax return form (in English language) there is no place on the taxation form to list such income as tax exempt, ... so one can make (IMHO) a solid argument that supports the assessment that such Canadian pensions/similar-remunerations are NOT to be included in a Thai taxation form.

 

Likely this could be applicable to some other country pensions as well (albeit definitely NOT applicable to all).

 

I also believe this supports the view, that at current time, Thailand does not require one report ALL of one's foreign income on a tax return, if, ... and the if is important ... if one can point to where the foreign income is exempt (due to Thailand ministerial regulations noting said income is tax exempt). That is also 100% consistent with the Thailand tax code.

 

I am most curious to watch this in coming months to see how (and see if) this clarifies some more.

 

[MikeN]

14 hours ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

 

Westpac never emailed you a 'Tax Status Declaration Form'?

They "sent" a hard copy which I never received, then emailed me a reminder as the deadline got close.  I got them to email me a copy, then late December I finally received the original paper form....they didn't put Thailand on the address, just Ubon Ratchathani and judging by the postmarks it went to Indonesia ! somebody there must have shown some initiative and googled to find out where Ubon Ratchathani is and corrected the address.

[topt]

5 hours ago, jwest10 said:

Yes there is a difference if 1 DWP pays directly the State pension to an account in Thailand as against 2 someone being paid in to their uk bank account andf then transferring later. In directly do not have to include on thiese non-existant tax forms

You're absolutely right. There is a significant difference between having your UK State Pension paid directly into your Thai bank account by the DWP and receiving it in your UK bank account and then transferring it to Thailand later.

1. Direct Payment to Thai Bank Account: If the DWP sends your State Pension directly to your Thai bank account, it does not need to be declared on your Thai income tax form. This is because it is considered a "frozen" pension and is not accessible income in Thailand.

2. Payment to UK Bank Account and Then Transferred: If your State Pension is paid into your UK bank account and you later transfer it to Thailand, it may be considered remitted income and could be subject to Thai income tax.

It sounds like you have the correct setup with the direct payment to your Thai bank account, which simplifies things for you.

If you have any more questions or need further assistance, feel free to ask!

 

 

 

 

 

Message Copilot

Am I understanding this correctly. Are you basing your belief on something CoPilot has written...............?

 

If I was trying to be polite I would say that personally I think you are completely mistaken.

 

[CharlesHolzhauer]

10 hours ago, MikeN said:

They "sent" a hard copy which I never received, then emailed me a reminder as the deadline got close.  I got them to email me a copy, then late December I finally received the original paper form....they didn't put Thailand on the address, just Ubon Ratchathani and judging by the postmarks it went to Indonesia ! somebody there must have shown some initiative and googled to find out where Ubon Ratchathani is and corrected the address.

You went through quite an unfortunate experience with the delay in receiving your mail. Providing accurate address and contact details to financial institutions is absolutely crucial, as even small oversights can lead to significant inconveniences. It's good to hear that someone took the initiative to ensure your mail reached you eventually, but situations like this highlight the importance of double-checking such details.

[jwest10]

On 1/4/2025 at 9:28 AM, OJAS said:

 

And no question of English language versions of relevant forms being issued by that date, of course. Instead Revenue Department staff have no doubt been instructed by their Director-General to devote all their energies between now and then to the task of drawing up a comprehensive list of all foreigner tax residents (with the eager and willing assistance of their pals in the Immigration Bureau, of course) aimed at gleefully hitting all such foreigners with 2,000 THB fines for non-compliance bang on the dot at 00:00:01 on 1 April!🤑

April fools all round

[anchadian]

40 mins ago