Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[NoDisplayName]

2 hours ago, The Cyclist said:

Why go to the hassle of changing PND 90 & 91, which is for employed people.

 

PN91 is for income from employment only.

PN90 is for income from employment AND all other forms.

[oldcpu]

10 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

According to the regulations, we only declare assessable income, which in most cases means claiming DTA benefits is accomplished by the taxpayer self-determining what is and what is not taxable by Thailand, and NOT declaring income that is exempt.

 

If not exempt, assessable income is declared.  If over the taxpayer's TEDA, tax may be due.

 

In rare instances a taxpayer may need to claim benefits under their DTA where it is not clear that the income is exempt.  The tax forms do not allow for this, so an in-person filing is required, potentially needing paid representation.  Tax office intervention is required, with a tax officially manually adjusting the filing.

 

yes - I am coming around to that view as well. 

 

Once I spotted article-42 in the Thai tax code , which notes some income is NOT to be included in the Thai tax calculation, it became very clear to me that there is a category of non-assessble income.  I also noted the footnote to the article-42(item-17) gets updated (typically a bit late) when there are changes, ... so I am coming around to the view that there is foreign remitted income to Thailand which is not to be included in a Thai tax calculation (per Thai law) and hence if that the only income then there is no need for a tax return.

 

Edit: Except perhaps I go a step further than you in believing for some no tax return submission needed

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

According to the regulations, we only declare assessable income,

 

Yes, see Section 40, Para ( 1 ) where it says Pensions.

 

The various pensions mentioned in DTA' will

 

1. exempt your pension from Thai taxation.This does not exempt said pensions to filing, if you are a thai tax resident, it means they are exempt from thai tax.

 

2. TEDA's may mean that your pension is below the threshold for paying tax.

 

3. A combination of TEDA's and Tax credits, may also mean that you have no income tax to pay

 

So Assessable income is Pensions ( As Per Section 40, Para 1 ) of the RD and the threshold for tax filing is above the 120k / 220k Baht a year.

 

Others are free to cherry pick between the revenue Code and DTA's to come up with answer that suits them

[NoDisplayName]

23 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Yes, see Section 40, Para ( 1 ) where it says Pensions.

 

The various pensions mentioned in DTA' will

 

1. exempt your pension from Thai taxation.This does not exempt said pensions to filing, if you are a thai tax resident, it means they are exempt from thai tax.

 

2. TEDA's may mean that your pension is below the threshold for paying tax.

 

3. A combination of TEDA's and Tax credits, may also mean that you have no income tax to pay

 

So Assessable income is Pensions ( As Per Section 40, Para 1 ) of the RD and the threshold for tax filing is above the 120k / 220k Baht a year.

 

Others are free to cherry pick between the revenue Code and DTA's to come up with answer that suits them

 

Still at this, dawg?

 

I'm truly sorry for you that the misinformed TRD lady in Pak Chong's backwater office told you to declare your entire remitted non-assessable pension, and then proceeded to incorrectly deduct it from the wrong section, merely to avoid admitting her misteak.  Just remember, your personal anecdote does not determine the law.

 

There is no provision on the form to claim foreign tax credits.

There is no provision on the form to exclude excludable, non-taxable, non-assessable income once declared.

 

Yes, I know.........Kenya signed up for CRS!!!

[oldcpu]

2 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

 the misinformed TRD lady in Pak Chong's backwater office told you to declare your entire remitted non-assessable pension, and then proceeded to incorrectly deduct it from the wrong section, merely to avoid admitting her misteak. 

 

 

wow ... One needs to be careful as everyone can make mistakes.

 

My concern for Cyclist would be that if they file their income tax the way it was incorrectly suggested to file in, someone else in the RD will review the tax submission, reject the exemption (in the wrong place as there is no place)  and charge full Thai tax on the tax exempt pension.  Then one is into the annoyance of appeal territory.

 

... best hope would be that the RD official reviewing the tax submission phones and asks why was the exemption placed in a place in the tax form which was not designed for such an entry.  .. and then sort it out on the phone.  But even that would be a PIA.

 

2 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

There is no provision on the form to claim foreign tax credits.

There is no provision on the form to exclude excludable, non-taxable, non-assessable income once declared.

 

That comment is very relevant  IMHO

 

Again , that was one factor that lead me to modify my view,  ... and I now believe that non-assesable remitted income (due to Por.161/162, or due to a specific DTA clause, or due to a specific LTR visa exemption) is not to be included in a Thai tax calculation, and hence not included on a Thai tax form. 

 

That view is IMHO consistent with all Thai tax 'english' language tax forms going back to 2017 up to year 2023, and also consistent with all Thai language tax forms, including the year 2024 and year 2025 Thai language Thai tax forms.

 

The tax forms (both Thai and English language)  would need to be changed for such exemptions (and hence for the associated remitted tax exempt income) to be entered in the tax forms.

.

[pizzachang]

Interesting concept, and a ancient one - taxation without representation.  

As far as I know, "foreigners" do not get to vote or own land, so the "representation" is thinner than a hair.

[oldcpu]

3 minutes ago, pizzachang said:

Interesting concept, and a ancient one - taxation without representation.  

As far as I know, "foreigners" do not get to vote or own land, so the "representation" is thinner than a hair.

As the saying goes : TIT (This is Thailand).

 

If you wish representation, then try to become a Thai citizen or head back to your home country.  That is the harsh reality.

[KhunHeineken]

10 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

There are i'm sure some Richie Rick folks staying in Thailand who maybe play tax games with home country and other locations. 

 

I won't get a TIN until I'm told by someone other than an anonymous poster or a legal service on facebook. This is all fueled by lonely retired guys with no hobbies.  

Fair enough, I just wouldn't leave it to the last minute for your extension.  Just a prediction, which I, and others, have posted here before.

 

In my opinion, there's an easy revenue stream just stilling there untapped for the Thai government.  That revenue stream can be legit, or otherwise, or a combination of both, depending on the individual.  

 

I accept everyone has different thoughts on this issue.  I'm just not in the "I'll do nothing" group, but each to their own.    

[KhunHeineken]

10 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

Yes!

Toughen up, Princess. 

[KhunHeineken]

9 hours ago, lordgrinz said:

 

It's more like the letter of the law states something, which technically is all that matters, and as usual Thai's (in this case TRD employees) are either ignoring it, or pretending they have no idea what you're talking about. At the end of the day, you're a Farang, and they don't really care what you do, until they do care, then I'd hate to be on the receiving end of justice.

I agree. 

 

I posted a while ago I don't want to be one of the first group of expats to be made an example of with this policy. 

[scottiejohn]

12 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Toughen up, Princess. 

What an incredibly erudite response! (I think not!)

[Yumthai]

24 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

In my opinion, there's an easy revenue stream just stilling there untapped for the Thai government.  That revenue stream can be legit, or otherwise, or a combination of both, depending on the individual.  

You're underestimating the repercussions of such drastic tax move. The main reason Thailand won't strictly enforce tax on foreigners' foreign sourced income is not because it's too difficult to collect but rather because of the consequences, economically and politically.

[motdaeng]

7 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

You're underestimating the repercussions of such drastic tax move. The main reason Thailand won't strictly enforce tax on foreigners' foreign sourced income is not because it's too difficult to collect but rather because of the consequences, economically and politically.

 

you give the thai gouverment a lot of credit .... nice of you .. 

[anchadian]

That man strikes again:

 

 

[redwood1]

45 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Fair enough, I just wouldn't leave it to the last minute for your extension.  Just a prediction, which I, and others, have posted here before.

 

In my opinion, there's an easy revenue stream just stilling there untapped for the Thai government.  That revenue stream can be legit, or otherwise, or a combination of both, depending on the individual.  

 

I accept everyone has different thoughts on this issue.  I'm just not in the "I'll do nothing" group, but each to their own.    

 

In my opinion, there's an easy revenue stream just stilling there untapped for the Thai government.

 

 

 

Are you kidding? Every single poster in these tax threads from day #1 form one year ago is aiming to get as close to paying 0.0% in taxes as possible........EVERY SINGLE POSTER no exceptions....

Any tax money collected will fall far far short of expectations.....

 

The tax money will be anything but EASY money for the Thais....

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

26 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

What an incredibly erudite response! (I think not!)

Getting back on topic, say this tax policy goes ahead, what enforcement options do you think they will implement?

[KhunHeineken]

24 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

You're underestimating the repercussions of such drastic tax move. The main reason Thailand won't strictly enforce tax on foreigners' foreign sourced income is not because it's too difficult to collect but rather because of the consequences, economically and politically.

I never used the words "strictly enforce." 

 

I've said from day one it might be just paying 300, 500 or 1000 baht for a certificate of clearance that will be needed for an extension, in the same way we pay 300 bah for a certificate of residence.   Maybe the TRD just want a similar corrupt perk.    

 

The Thai's will have "face" because they are seen to be "taxing" foreigners. There will be a easy and simple extra corrupt earner for the TRD. Foreigners will be happy because it's only 1000 baht when they should be paying more, so no need to leave Thailand for 6 months.  

 

Who knows how this will unfold, but I also said from day one, we'll have to pay "something" and that "something" may not necessarily mean one's correct amount of tax. 

[Yumthai]

Just now, motdaeng said:

you give the thai gouverment a lot of credit .... nice of you .. 

Indeed, I don't think the people in charge in Thailand are that dumb unlike some posters imply.

Au contraire, they are smart enough to milk with no effort the small worried crowd who obediently run to the tax office, with the help of few activist collaborators.

[KhunHeineken]

14 minutes ago, redwood1 said:

 

In my opinion, there's an easy revenue stream just stilling there untapped for the Thai government.

 

 

 

Are you kidding? Every single poster in these tax threads from day #1 form one year ago is aiming to get as close to paying 0.0% in taxes as possible........EVERY SINGLE POSTER no exceptions....

Any tax money collected will fall far far short of expectations.....

 

The tax money will be anything but EASY money for the Thais....

 

 

Some people's lifestyle here will just not allow them to minimize their tax to a point they pay next to nothing. 

 

Not every retiree is living on a pension from month to month. 

 

In any case, it may not go down the path of being seriously implemented.  Maybe it will be no more than what I have just described in another post, that is, simply paying for a certificate of clearance. 

[KhunHeineken]

4 hours ago, oldcpu said:

As the saying goes : TIT (This is Thailand).

 

If you wish representation, then try to become a Thai citizen or head back to your home country.  That is the harsh reality.

Not quite. 

 

Many other countries offer a reasonable pathway to permanent residency and / or citizenship. 

 

Perhaps not necessary to return to one's home country for either of the above.  

[scottiejohn]

32 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

Getting back on topic, say this tax policy goes ahead, what enforcement options do you think they will implement?

I will leave all the wild speculations to you!

It seems to be your one forte!

[NoDisplayName]

4 hours ago, oldcpu said:

Again , that was one factor that lead me to modify my view,  ... and I now believe that non-assesable remitted income (due to Por.161/162, or due to a specific DTA clause, or due to a specific LTR visa exemption) is not to be included in a Thai tax calculation, and hence not included on a Thai tax form. 

 

We could run some numbers, if anyone wants to take the lead. 

 

Let's say I have $36K social security, $15K dividends, $25K capital gains from stock sales, $25K in capital losses from other stock sales, plus $100K of pre-2023 savings in various forms, all co-mingled and running through multiple bank/broker accounts.  With all that, let's say (I didn't do the maffs) I paid $1000 in tax to Uncle Scam.  Due to other income, SOME of my social security is taxable in the US.  I made 10K baht in interest on my 800K, and paid 1500 baht withholding tax.

 

I transfer $50K to Thailand over the course of the year.

 

In the real world............I can self-determine assessablility.  I could declare that I remitted all pre-2024 savings, nothing assessable, nothing declared.  No need to file, unless I want that juicy 1500 baht refund.

 

Or I can self-determine i brought in a mix of social security and prior savings.  Same.

 

Ignoring the complications of the capital gains, and the offsetting capital losses not recognized by Thailand, we'll stick with social security and prior savings.  Keep it simple for the learning experience.

 

Under Kenyan CRS rules, I must declare that I remitted 1,700,000 baht under regular income: social security and prior savings.  Not exactly sure where I should enter prior savings, but it was income at some time long ago. 

 

Single, young guy.......I get my 60K personal allowance, 100K exemption on pensions, which I enter on the tax form.........and now my declared taxable remitted income is 1,550,000 baht.

 

How much do I owe?  Let's see....Thai tax tables....

Egads!  I owe 252,500 baht tax!!!!!

 

Fortunately, Kenyan CRS tax forms can handle this!

 

First, I'll take a $1000 tax credit for what I already paid to Uncle Scam.  Let's see....it's right....ummmmm...........wait a minute!  There's no entry field to deduct foreign tax credits!  Oh, well, it's all for the best in the new world order, so I'll just eat it, cause it's for a good cause.

 

Okay, fine, I need to pay some tax, right?  I'll just deduct the amount of prior savings that TRD says is non-assessable.  That entry field should be....right about................huh?  No field to deduct pre-2024 savings?  That's odd!  But how bad can it be, right?

 

Instead of that, I'll just deduct the amount of social security that is not taxable by Thailand under the DTA.  Now where's that pesky blank?  Huh?  No blank to enter DTA information and deduct from taxable income?

 

What's going on here?  I've been reliably informed by infotainment journalists that I absolutely must report ALL remittances!

 

At least I can get my interest withholding back?  What's that?  I can't because of my tax bracket?

 

Well, that sucks.

[KhunHeineken]

15 minutes ago, scottiejohn said:

I will leave all the wild speculations to you!

It seems to be your one forte!

I don't think it's wild speculation. 

 

The Thai government have a few options, one of them being to just do nothing, but I don't think they will take that option. 

[JNASHDDS]

can anyone please recommend a good, English-speaking accountant in CNX, preferably a CPA?

[oldcpu]

1 hour ago, NoDisplayName said:

What's going on here?  I've been reliably informed by infotainment journalists that I absolutely must report ALL remittances!

 

At least I can get my interest withholding back?  What's that?  I can't because of my tax bracket?

 

Well, that sucks.

 

 Do I detect a note of sarcasm?  ... lol.

[Robaht]

I’m going all cash. It will be sad to say goodbye to all my airmiles earned on cc, but $ is $ and safety first. 

[MikeandDow]

How are people to be informed of this Tax filing, they going to send you a letter or what !! or are you suposed to be a mind reader, lots of people out there still know nothing !!

[oldcpu]

10 minutes ago, MikeandDow said:

How are people to be informed of this Tax filing, they going to send you a letter or what !! or are you suposed to be a mind reader, lots of people out there still know nothing !!

 

As foreigners to Thailand ,we are expected to learn and follow Thailand law. This includes Thai tax law relevant to our situation.  No one will hold our hands on this.

[MartinBangkok]

2 hours ago, KhunHeineken said:

I never used the words "strictly enforce." 

 

I've said from day one it might be just paying 300, 500 or 1000 baht for a certificate of clearance that will be needed for an extension, in the same way we pay 300 bah for a certificate of residence.   Maybe the TRD just want a similar corrupt perk.    

 

The Thai's will have "face" because they are seen to be "taxing" foreigners. There will be a easy and simple extra corrupt earner for the TRD. Foreigners will be happy because it's only 1000 baht when they should be paying more, so no need to leave Thailand for 6 months.  

 

Who knows how this will unfold, but I also said from day one, we'll have to pay "something" and that "something" may not necessarily mean one's correct amount of tax. 

'Foreigners will be happy because it's only 1000 baht when they should be paying more, so no need to leave Thailand for 6 months."

 

How can you @KhunHeineken, and everyone likeminded to you, accept to pay even 1 Baht tax to Thailand?

 

It just baffles me.

 

[MikeandDow]

8 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

As foreigners to Thailand ,we are expected to learn and follow Thailand law. This includes Thai tax law relevant to our situation.  No one will hold our hands on this.

well how are we suposed to learn ! if you dont no bugger all about this,   i know guys not on the intenet live a quite life out in the sticks