Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[NoDisplayName]

3 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Somebody posted 2 days ago that they filed at a Revenue office, paid no tax and came away with a no tax to pay certificate. So it is clearly something that can be done at a Revenue Office, but not online.

 

How selective.  You've mentioned this return previously, been corrected, yet you repeat it.  I'm beginning to understand what kind of "cyclist" your handle means.

 

The person in question remitted an assessable pension, and after TEDA and 0% tax bracket, owed no tax.

 

Easily done online.

 

He did not declare a non-assessable by DTA pension.

He did not deduct non-assessable remittances on the tax form.

He remitted an assessable pension.

He did not take a tax credit of about 39K baht equivalent paid.

He incorrectly deducted the tax paid from the remittance amount prior to doing his PIT calculation.

The tax lady didn't bother to correct him, probably as no tax due.

Tax credits are deducted from tax owed, not from funds remitted.

Had he owed tax, his "tax credit" would have amounted to a reduction of only 2000 baht.

 

12 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

What difference does it make if I have filed a tax return or not ?

 

Duh.

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, Yumthai said:

OK, how much do you think will an agent charge to get one? 1K THB?

 

What has that got to do with the price of cheese ?
 

Why would I pay an agent when I can go to a Revenue Office, that I pass 3 days a week, file a tax return, pay no tax and get it for free ?

 

You didn't really think that one through, before rattling the keyboard, did you ?

[The Cyclist]

1 minute ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Duh

 

Ahhhh Ok, got it

 

Hi Gant, keep panicking.

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

How selective.  You've mentioned this return previously, been corrected, yet you repeat it.  I'm beginning to understand what kind of "cyclist" your handle means.

 

I dont think the original poster of that particular comment has been back to correct anything.

 

And as you didn't make the comment, you are no position to correct anything.

 

 

[NoDisplayName]

4 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

OK, how much do you think will an agent charge to get one? 1K THB?

 

Tis not a certificate.  You may be thinking of the tax clearance certificate available at TRD, mentioned in laws currently not enforced.

 

What the filer received at TRD, and what can be downloaded when filing online, is the receipt for taxes paid.  You download this, along with your accepted tax return, when you successfully file online.

 

Not same-same.

[Yumthai]

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

What has that got to do with the price of cheese ?
 

Why would I pay an agent when I can go to a Revenue Office, that I pass 3 days a week, file a tax return, pay no tax and get it for free ?

 

You didn't really think that one through, before rattling the keyboard, did you ?

I'm just replying to your broad comment: "That certificate is something that we are going to need going forward."

Why are you so self-centered?

 

In case you didn't get it, paying an agent to obtain a certificate is obviously to bypass requirements, as per Immigration stamps.

 

[NoDisplayName]

4 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I dont think the original poster of that particular comment has been back to correct anything.

 

And as you didn't make the comment, you are no position to correct anything.

 

 

 

Poster clarified on page 21.

 

None of my assessable income is from employment, but from pension and dividends in 2024, all untaxed at source and brought in through ATM, Debit Card, FPS or Credit Card expenditure, all below my TEDA.

 

think I'm going to file it all under 1 (1) as pension. (It's the UK State Pension. Dividends are from a tax free jurisdiction.) They are all paid outside of Thailand. So not all of it is used, and it only comes in through remittances, (as ATM, DC, FPS or CC). Dividends are not paid into Thailand.

 

Poster remitted an assessable pension, not excluded by DTA, along with dividends.

 

Do try to keep up.

[The Cyclist]

4 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

I'm just replying to your broad comment: "That certificate is something that we are going to need going forward."

Why are you so self-centered?

 

How does " We " equate to being self centered ?
 

Something else you didn't really think about before hitting the keyboard.

 

Give it a rest.

[The Cyclist]

7 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Poster clarified on page 21.

 

My bad, I didn't see that

 

7 minutes ago, NoDisplayName said:

Poster remitted an assessable pension, not excluded by DTA,

 

And yet again, Section 40, Part 1 of the RC, makes clear that Pensions are assessable.

 

And this is the part that you are not getting.

 

A DTA does not say that a particular pension escapes Thai Tax Law, rules and regulations. It says that it is only taxable in Country X, Y or Z.

 

If you can show me a DTA that says different, I might listen

 

If you can show me in the Revenue Code where as a ax resident I do not need to declare my Government Pension, by filing a tax return and having it exempt from tax by dint of a DTA, i might listen.

 

Until then, I will go with my interpretation/ understanding, and my local Revenue Office can make a decision on whether it needs to be declared and filed on a tax return.

 

Not some anonymous pixels on the internet.

[Yumthai]

26 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

How does " We " equate to being self centered ?

 

43 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Why would I pay an agent when I can go to a Revenue Office, that I pass 3 days a week, file a tax return, pay no tax and get it for free ?

This is self-centered.

[GarryP]

16 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Under the present system, the taxpayer determines which remittances are assessable according to the tax regulations.  Those that are assessable are included in the PIT calculations.  Those that are NOT assessable are NOT included in the PIT calculations.

 

Supporting documentation would be required if audited, but that doesn't seem to happen often.  I am aware of only two forum members subjected to audit; one was running a business in Thailand, the other was employed for years, quit the job and stopped filing returns.

 

No documentation normally needed if filing in person.  The clerk will ask source of remitted funds, you say "prior savings", clerk says "you no file."

That will also apply to me, hopefully. Just filed my last tax return last Thursday and received my rebate today, so happy with that. However, now I am retired and will have no earnings in 2025, I assume I will not have to file a tax return for the 2025 tax year. FYI I have not been filing as an expratiate.   

[oldcpu]

24 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

A DTA does not say that a particular pension escapes Thai Tax Law, rules and regulations. It says that it is only taxable in Country X, Y or Z.

 

 

I am trying (unsuccessfully) to understand your view here.

 

If a DTA, to which Thailand signs, states a particular pension is ONLY taxable in the source country (which is not Thailand), that you still believe that pension is STILL taxable in Thailand (despite wording in the DTA and wording in Ministerial Decree 18 which covers DTAs) ?

 

If so, you and I have very different opinions. 

 

I believe my view matches that of the Thai revenue department, in part because given a Royal Decree notes the income is exempt (as per DTA wording)  and given that there has since 2017 never been a place on a Thai tax form (neither English nor Thai language) to list exemptions for DTA income/pensions (for cases where DTA states only a non-Thailand country can tax said income/pension).

[The Cyclist]

50 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Why would I pay an agent when I can go to a Revenue Office, that I pass 3 days a week, file a tax return, pay no tax and get it for free ?

 

This will be comedy gold. Explain how the above is

 

6 minutes ago, Yumthai said:

This is self-centered

 

Over to you.

[oldcpu]

9 minutes ago, GarryP said:

That will also apply to me, hopefully. Just filed my last tax return last Thursday and received my rebate today, so happy with that. However, now I am retired and will have no earnings in 2025, I assume I will not have to file a tax return for the 2025 tax year. FYI I have not been filing as an expratiate.   

 

You filed your last tax return last Thurday, and you have not been filing as an expatriate.  ... Are you filing as a permanent resident, or as a non-resident, or as a Thai citizen? 

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

I am trying (unsuccessfully) to understand your view here.

 

If a DTA, to which Thailand signs, states a particular pension is ONLY taxable in the source country (which is not Thailand), that you still believe that pension is STILL taxable in Thailand (despite wording in the DTA and wording in Ministerial Decree 18 which covers DTAs) ?

 

How many times do we need to go around this house ?

 

I am not saying that Pension is taxable in Thailand. I never have done, and never will do.

 

Filing and taxing are 2 different things.

 

Here is my view / current understanding ( Yet again )

 

27 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

And yet again, Section 40, Part 1 of the RC, makes clear that Pensions are assessable.

 

And this is the part that you are not getting.

 

A DTA does not say that a particular pension escapes Thai Tax Law, rules and regulations. It says that it is only taxable in Country X, Y or Z.

 

Therefore

 

31 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

If you can show me in the Revenue Code where as a ax resident I do not need to declare my Government Pension, by filing a tax return and having it exempt from tax by dint of a DTA, i might listen.

 

Until then, I will go with my interpretation/ understanding, and my local Revenue Office can make a decision on whether it needs to be declared and filed on a tax return.

 

 

[bkk6060]

17 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

I hope that I am on the TRD radar.  I asked they provide me a TIN and they denied me one.  I hope that they remember such.

It is the residents responsibility in my opinion to make sure they are protected.   They won't remember you, so did you get the full name, phone number, and all contact information for the TRD employee?  Hope so.

[GarryP]

18 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

You filed a tax return last Thurday, and you have not been filing as an expatriate.  ... Are you filing as a permanent resident, or as a non-resident, or as a Thai citizen? 

The last one on that list. My concern is that ultimately I wll be drawing a UK state pension, but that is still a few years off so hopefully the mud will have settled by then. 

[oldcpu]

29 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

I am not saying that Pension is taxable in Thailand. I never have done, and never will do.

 

Filing and taxing are 2 different things.

 

 

OK ...  Then we still differ.

 

My intepretation - which is I believe the  same as the Thai RD, is that 'exempt income" cases noted (DTA exempt per Royal Decree wording and LTR exempt also per Royal Decree wording) is the same as 'exempt for taxation calculations".

 

We have already had confirmed that remitted income exempt from tax, per por.161/162 is not to be included in a Thai tax form. So same wording ... 'exempt' ...  Same treatment in the Thai tax return forms (both English and Thai language) where there is NO mention in the tax return forms of such as being an exemption . None. Not one word.  Where that strongly suggests that exempt income is "exempt for tax calculation purposes and it is not to be included in a tax form... Yet you still believe it should be filed.

 

Ok - fine - that is your view.

 

But I do not understand why you ignore what is very clear in the Thai tax forms going back to year 2017 (the furthest I looked back) and probably going back to the year Ministerial Decree 18 was issued (2009 ?? < unsure > ).  If such was to be included for tax filing as an exemption  (where it is exempt) there would be a place on the Thai tax form for such. 

 

There is no place.

 

What do you believe is the reason for that omission in ALL of the Thai tax forms?

[The Cyclist]

33 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

OK ...  Then we still differ.

 

Watch the video from 7.30 to 8.30

 

 

2 criteria that the Revenue Department use for assessable income for tax

 

 No difference between Thais and Foreigners. The same rules apply

 

1.  Income brought in from overseas from after Jan 2024  is assessable income for tax.

 

2. Especially for foreigners, if you stay 180 days or more you are a taxpayer.

 

You can then listen to the expat going on about everyone staying within the rules.

 

You can read that anyway you like, and so can anyone else. 

 

I read that as, here 180 days or more, remit income gained after Jan 01 2024, you are classed as taxpayer and you need to file a tax return.

 

Your specific DTA will determine, what, if any tax, you might have to pay.

 

Being under the umbrella of a DTA does not exempt anyone from complying with Thailands Tax rules and laws.

 

It doesn't matter what I believe. It matters what the RD Guy in the video believes and what has been pushed out to Revenue Department Offices.

 

And that does not exclude the same thing that happens at different immigration Offices, where thay might actually do different things at the local level.

 

 

 

[ronnie50]

8 hours ago, Briggsy said:

Non-residence for tax purposes in the UK is determined by the statutory residence tests.

https://assets.kpmg.com/content/dam/kpmg/pdf/2016/01/statutory-residence-test-flowchart.pdf

Non-residents are taxed on UK income even though they are non-resident.

State pension is never taxed at source but is taxable income. (Any tax due is generally collected by adjustment of the tax code of other income, e.g. company pension)

 

I hope this clarifies your understanding.

Yes, thanks, I was aware of that. My point was no assets 'and no UK income' (should have added the latter).

[oldcpu]

18 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Watch the video from 7.30 to 8.30

 

 

2 criteria that the Revenue Department use for assessable income for tax

 

 No difference between Thais and Foreigners. The same rules apply

 

1.  Income brought in from overseas from after Jan 2024  is assessable income for tax.

 

2. Especially for foreigners, if you stay 180 days or more you are a taxpayer.

 

You can then listen to the expat going on about everyone staying within the rules.

 

You can read that anyway you like, and so can anyone else. 

 

I read that as, here 180 days or more, remit income gained after Jan 01 2024, you are classed as taxpayer and you need to file a tax return.

 

Your specific DTA will determine, what, if any tax, you might have to pay.

 

Being under the umbrella of a DTA does not exempt anyone from complying with Thailands Tax rules and laws.

 

It doesn't matter what I believe. It matters what the RD Guy in the video believes and what has been pushed out to Revenue Department Offices.

 

And that does not exclude the same thing that happens at different immigration Offices, where thay might actually do different things at the local level.

 

 

 

We agree with all that.  I think you miss my point.

 

Where we disagree is what 'exempt' means in the context of cases where a DTA may state only the other country (not Thailand) can tax a certain income ... which Royal Decree 18 confirms means such is exempt Thai tax. 

 

I interpret that as meaning 'exempt for calculation of tax' (and hence similar to por.161/162 it does not go on a tax form).

 

Further I support my interpretation based on deliberate omissions in official Thailand tax forms going back to year 2017 (and possibly to 2009) .

 

As far as I can read, you have yet to explain why you believe there is no entry in any Thailand tax form to list in exemptions any exempt income in DTAs (per Royal Decree-18) .

[oldcpu]

27 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Being under the umbrella of a DTA does not exempt anyone from complying with Thailands Tax rules and laws.

 

It doesn't matter what I believe. It matters what the RD Guy in the video believes and what has been pushed out to Revenue Department Offices.

 

And that does not exclude the same thing that happens at different immigration Offices, where thay might actually do different things at the local level.

 

 

 

 

No one is saying don't comply with Thai laws.

 

So I have no idea where you are going there.  Rather I am saying to comply with Thai law, the exempt income that i noted (DTA exempt and LTR exempt) are not to be included in a tax form.  That does NOT go against Thai laws, and the Royal Decrees and also Thailand tax forms omissions (of such as exempt income for deductions) confirms that such income is exempt for purposes of tax calculation (and not to be included on a tax form).

[Dah fahrang]

22 hours ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

 

My understanding is that tax paid in a foreign country, if the foreign country has the right to tax the income, is not a deduction from the income remitted into Thailand, but instead a credit towards any taxes payable. 

 

In other words, the taxes paid in the UK would be a tax credit, not a deduction from income.

 

In this case, it seems the point is moot, but going forward it may be something to look at closely. I don't think current Thai income tax forms address this, however.

That is how I treated it. As a tax credit against Thai tax, until I am told by the RD otherwise. I declared the full total of two inward remittances on my spreadsheet, then deducted the Baht equivalent of UK PAYE tax deducted on my UK pensions (42.30 exchange rate). I (my wife) explained this to the RD clerk, and gave her to keep, the (English language) title page of the Thai/UK DTA signed in 1881.She had no idea of any DTA, but accepted my reduced figure. 

[The Cyclist]

11 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Where we disagree is what 'exempt' means in the context of cases where a DTA may state only the other country (not Thailand) can tax a certain income ... which Royal Decree 18 confirms means such is exempt Thai tax. 

 

Thats fine, you can interpret it how you want,

 

13 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

I interpret that as meaning 'exempt for calculation of tax'

 

Sure, I agree exempt for the calculation of tax. Not exempt from filing a tax return.

 

14 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

Further I support my interpretation based on deliberate omissions in official Thailand tax forms going back to year 2017 (and possibly to 2009) .

 

As it has only came into effect from the 01 Jan 2024, it would not be on prior tax forms, and the updated English Version has not been released yet.

 

15 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

As far as I can read, you have yet to explain why you believe there is no entry in any Thailand tax form to list in exemptions any exempt income in DTAs (per Royal Decree-18)

 

See above

 

Furthermore, it is not for me to explain. It would be for the RD to explain, but perhaps holding your horses until the updated English Forms come out, or take a trip with all your paperwork to your local RD Office and get them to assist you face to face, might be better than trying to demand answers from another foreigner, who is in the exact same boat as you are.

[Dah fahrang]

22 hours ago, oldcpu said:

 

I checked his post - and he does not mention if his pension was a civil servant or military pension and whether that was or was not taxable in Thailand according to the Thai - UK DTA.  I understand UK civil servant/military pensions are only taxable in the UK, but other UK pensions ? Is that also the case? Perhaps non-civil servant UK pensions are taxable in Thailand?  I don't know that DTA.

 

This is important - so if you are going to compare to Dah fahrang you need to specify and explain that and confirm you have same type of pensions  (as I do believe Dah fahrang did NOT specify that) else the comparison is meaningless. 

 

 

Apologies for omission.

 

The pensions concerned and aggregated are: UK Teachers Pension (deemed private pension scheme by HMRC) a Prudential Annuity (private scheme) and a small UK State Pension. HMRC add all these sources of income and then deduct UK tax accordingly. It is the UK Tax assessment for 2024/25 which I printed out to present to the TRD as evidence, and, until told otherwise, claimed as Tax Credit which I unilaterally deducted from my total remittances. I did not remit the total amount of pension income in 2024; only enough to keep me below the threshold for Thai Tax.

 

In the absence of any clear ruling by TRD on this, and the lack of appropriate space on Form 90 to declare foreign tax paid, plus the fact that I am obliged by law to file for Thai Tax by the end of March, I unilaterally claimed a tax credit by deduction. Should 'TRD Eagles' decide to come to my door to make an example of me, so be it.

[oldcpu]

14 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Furthermore, it is not for me to explain. It would be for the RD to explain, but perhaps holding your horses until the updated English Forms come out, or take a trip with all your paperwork to your local RD Office and get them to assist you face to face, might be better than trying to demand answers from another foreigner, who is in the exact same boat as you are.

 

Royal Decree-18 came out in 2009 (?) noting DTAs could make some income exempt.  Yet from 2019 to 2023 there was no field in any Thai Tax form, neither English nor Thai language, to include in the exemption list foreign tax exempt income (per DTA) remitted in the year it was earned.

 

This was  LONG before 2024.

 

Further, DTA exemptions can affect MORE than just foreigners. They can also in some cases be relevant to Thai people in Thailand.

 

Further, if you examine the English and Thai language tax forms side by side, year by year , they are pretty much very close to the same.

 

The year 2024 (and year 2025) Thai language tax forms have no such entry.

 

So you can hold your breath waiting for the English language 2024 Thai tax forms, but if I had to wager, ... I believe just like the Thai language forms, there will be no inclusion in the income exempt area, for income exempt by DTAs.  There was no entry in 2017, nor 2018, nor 2019, nor 2020, nor 2021, nor 2022, nor 2023 (nor the Thai 2024) so I do not believe there will be in 2024 English language form.

 

Plus, I can not help but suspect that when the 2024 tax form in English language comes out, and if like the previous 2017 to 2023 the exemption list has nothing for DTA, that you will not change your view.

[Dah fahrang]

22 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

Could you explain how the foreign tax deduction was claimed on the tax form?

It wasn't claimed on the form.

 

Was this just the tax official acknowledging that you paid some tax (yes) but not used in the calculations, (No. It was used as the base for calculation. I declared I had deducted it) or was it actually deducted at some point from your tax due? 

 

 

[Dah fahrang]

22 hours ago, NoDisplayName said:

 

This is not what would normally be considered a tax credit.

 

I would expect that if you paid 39K equivalent in UK tax, then you would deduct 39K from your Thai tax due. 

 

Your method, by subtracting the tax paid from the total remittance BEFORE calculating Thai tax, merely gives you a 5% effective tax credit for what you paid in the UK.  Had you owed tax, your tax credit as described would amount to a 2000 baht reduction on your tax bill.

Thanks for this. Good to know a mistake was made in my calculation method. 

Still, its better to have tried and failed than never to have tried at all.

[Etaoin Shrdlu]

15 minutes ago, Dah fahrang said:

That is how I treated it. As a tax credit against Thai tax, until I am told by the RD otherwise. I declared the full total of two inward remittances on my spreadsheet, then deducted the Baht equivalent of UK PAYE tax deducted on my UK pensions (42.30 exchange rate). I (my wife) explained this to the RD clerk, and gave her to keep, the (English language) title page of the Thai/UK DTA signed in 1881.She had no idea of any DTA, but accepted my reduced figure. 

 

Deducted the UK tax amount from what?  

 

The original post gave me the impression that the UK tax paid was deducted from the amount of the remittance. It should not be deducted from the amount of the remittance, but from the amount of Thai tax payable. The above does not clarify.

[The Cyclist]

5 minutes ago, Dah fahrang said:

n the absence of any clear ruling by TRD on this, and the lack of appropriate space on Form 90 to declare foreign tax paid, plus the fact that I am obliged by law to file for Thai Tax by the end of March, I unilaterally claimed a tax credit by deduction. Should 'TRD Eagles' decide to come to my door to make an example of me, so be it.

 

For what it is worth, I believe you have done the correct thing and used this correctly ( Even if the paperwork is a bit off )

 

Quote

2)   Credit method

The resident country retains the right to tax the income which was already taxed in the source country. It calculates its tax on the basis of the taxpayer's total income including income from the other country which according to the DTA is taxed in that other country. However, it allows a deduction from its own tax for the tax paid in the other country

 

And despite all the backwards and forwards on here. When I file with my Government Pension I will be using this

 

Quote

1)   Exemption method

The country of residence does not tax the income which according to the DTA is taxed in the source country.

 

https://www.rd.go.th/english/21973.html

 

I believe that to utilise a DTA, you have to file to make the claim.

 

Too late, when and if you get a knock on the door to explain why you haven't filed.