Thai tax tangle: Expats warned of new rules on overseas income

[SHA 2 BKK]

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

Providing one is a tax resident, and the money is dispersed and remitted from the 01 Jan 2024.

 

But what if it is savings from before 1 January 2023?  Must one file a return???

[oldcpu]

8 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

Because I believe that the Tax Consultant, from Siam Legal, completely destroys that myth.

 

Although to be fair, he uses US Social Security ( And not UK Government Pensions ) as his example.

 

However, the same principle must apply to all sources of income that come under Exclusive Taxation Rights.

 

Providing one is a tax resident, and the money is dispersed and remitted from the 01 Jan 2024.

 

One needs to be careful of differences in DTA.  When it came to actually filing, while maybe using the USA-Thai DTA as a 'case study', the bottom line is (in your case I believe) the UK_Thai DTA ... and if it were me, I would pay very close attention to that, and pay far far less attention to the USA-Thai DTA.

 

And frankly, so should Siam Legal.  Its ... well ... lets just say it would be far better if only the UK-Thai DTA was considered by them in your case if you had no USA income.

[oldcpu]

6 minutes ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

 

But what if it is savings from before 1 January 2023?  Must one file a return???

 

Nominally , no.  If pre-1-Jan-2024 foreign income is remitted into Thailand, it is exempt for Thai tax calculation and need not be included in a tax form, and hence no tax return needed.   Reference Por.161.162 re: the exemption.

 

However, if you have other income than just that, then the other income might mean you need to file a Thai tax return.

 

That is my opinion/understanding.

[SHA 2 BKK]

1 minute ago, oldcpu said:

 

Nominally , no.  If pre-1-Jan-2024 foreign income is remitted into Thailand, it is exempt for Thai tax calculation and need not be included in a tax form, and hence no tax form needed.   Reference Por.161.162 re: the exemption.

 

However, if you have other income than just that, then the other income might mean you need to file a Thai tax return.

 

That is my opinion/understanding.

Yes my thinking too - I also have a DTA protected pension and an LTR Visa - Bank Statements to prove the savings - so unless there is an updated form for me to show these "exempted" incomes I'm leaning strongly to not filing.  

[The Cyclist]

4 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

One needs to be careful of differences in DTA.  When it came to actually filing,

 

DTA's are nothing to do with Tax Filing.

 

DTA's tell a Country ( In this case Thailand ) What they can, and cannot tax.

[oldcpu]

3 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

DTA's are nothing to do with Tax Filing.

 

DTA's tell a Country ( In this case Thailand ) What they can, and cannot tax.

 

Not exactly (re: tax filing).

 

We have been through this.

 

DTAs can list income that is exempt.  ... Which may mean income that is exempt for both tax calculation and for considering one's assessable income.

 

And if due to wording in a DTA (making income not taxable by Thailand) then such income is not assessable ... and if no other income, then one does not meet the assessable income requirement to file a Thai tax return.

 

We have been through this before.

 

It depends on the DTA and one's total assessable income.

[SHA 2 BKK]

3 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

DTA's are nothing to do with Tax Filing.

 

DTA's tell a Country ( In this case Thailand ) What they can, and cannot tax.

So I should file and show my DTA protected remittances?

[oldcpu]

4 minutes ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

So I should file and show my DTA protected remittances?

 

No.  Not in my opinion.

 

There is no place on a Thailand tax form to show such.

 

Not since 2017 (and I believe since 1969) has there been a place on a Thai tax form to list exemptions as a result of a DTA.

 

That is a LOT of time.  Clearly Revenue Department (RD) of Thailand would put such a place if they wanted you to include and then deduct such income.   NOTHING has changed in this regard ... its always been than any money remitted into Thailand in the year it was earned was potentially assessable and taxable (DTA dependent).

 

There is a lot of paranoia here by some, looking at their specific DTA situation, and thinking it applies to everyone else.

[The Cyclist]

4 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

DTAs can list income that is exempt.  ... Which may mean income that is exempt for both tax calculation and for considering one's assessable income.

 

Bold 1 Which may mean, is nowhere near good enough.

 

Bold 2. Show me anywhere in any DTA that says this.

[KhunHeineken]

5 hours ago, grain said:

I agree entirely, this will come soon. Just one more requirement on the list. 

It's so simple, quick, easy and cost effective for them to go down that path to ensure compliance that it would be too hard for them to resist.

[The Cyclist]

6 minutes ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

So I should file and show my DTA protected remittances?

 

Only for income that is earned in 2024, remitted to Thailand in 2024, and for 2024, you are a tax resident of Thailand.

[oldcpu]

2 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Bold 1 Which may mean, is nowhere near good enough.

 

Bold 2. Show me anywhere in any DTA that says this.

 

You need to look at multiple documents.

 

I have already shown you such.

 

[The Cyclist]

Just now, oldcpu said:

 

You need to look at multiple documents.

 

I have already shown you such.

 

 

Actually, you haven't. You have gave your interpretation of various bits and bobs.

[SHA 2 BKK]

Just now, oldcpu said:

 

No.  Not in my opinion.

 

There is no place on a Thailand tax form to show such.

 

Not since 2017 (and I believe since 1969) has there been a place on a Thai tax form to list exemptions as a result of a DTA.

 

That is a LOT of time.  Clearly Revenue Department (RD) of Thailand would put such a place if they wanted you to include and then deduct such income.   NOTHING has changed in this regard ... its always been than any money remitted into Thailand in the year it was earned was potentially assessable and taxable (DTA dependent).

 

There is a lot of paranoia here by some, looking at their specific DTA situation, and thinking it applies to everyone else.

Thank you good sir for the best answer of the day.  
 

I was actually being facetious  in my Australian way by posing a question that a certain poster had hedged bets on answering.   

[SHA 2 BKK]

3 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Only for income that is earned in 2024, remitted to Thailand in 2024, and for 2024, you are a tax resident of Thailand.

So my DTA exempted income that was earned in 2024 should be noted in which section of the tax return?  

[The Cyclist]

2 minutes ago, SHA 2 BKK said:

So my DTA exempted income that was earned in 2024 should be noted in which section of the tax return?  

 

I don't know, perhaps wait until the updated paperwork appears.

 

Or you could phone an actual Tax Consultant and ask them.

 

I'm actually in the same boat with my UK Government Pension.

 

And I don't think your DTA Exempted income is as you think it is. Exempt from Tax, yes, exempt from filing, No.

 

 

[TheAppletons]

Some posters seem to have the greatest difficulty grasping the simplest of concepts, even when repeatedly taken by the hand and led to the solution.

 

Perhaps those posters should seek help from a cycologist.

[oldcpu]

30 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Actually, you haven't. You have gave your interpretation of various bits and bobs.

Case in point ... look at the Canada-Thai DTA:

 

Quote

Article-18:  Pensions and other similar remuneration, ... or past employment, arising in the Contracting state (Canada) and paid to a resident of the other Contracting state (Thailand) shall be only taxable in the first-mentioned State (Canada).

 

Clearly, ONLY Canada can tax such a pension. Thailand can not tax that income. It is ONLY taxable in Canada.

 

If one then looks at Royal Decree-18 (year 1969) it notes such is exempt taxation per the revenue code.  If one looks at Thailand tax forms (both Thai and English) there is no field to list such exempt income as being exempt.

 

Why?  For ? 50 years and no such field in a tax form ? Why?

 

Clearly - it is because such Canadian pension income referenced in the quote does not fall under the Thai category of assessable income due to the DTA and Royal Decree. Which means if this pension income is the only income, the criteria for filing a Thai tax return is not met.

 

Now other DTAs say DIFFERENT things, so one really really really needs to check the DTA (with Thailand) of the country from where their foreign income is sourced.

 

You still have not admited your mistake re claiming only pre-1-Jan-2024 income is tax exempt.

 

You still can not explain why the 2017 to 2024 (Thai language) and 2017 to 2023 (English language) Thai tax forms have no field for the deduction of DTA exempt income.

.

[The Cyclist]

Just now, oldcpu said:

Clearly, ONLY Canada can tax such a pension. Thailand can not tax that income. It is ONLY taxable in Canada.

 

Holy Christ, that is not in dispute, There are many incomes that are only taxable in Canada, the US, The UK and every other Country that has a DTA with Thailand.

 

US Social Security being one example, that lots of people use.

 

Oh Dear

 

 

 

Look what he says about US Social Security. Posted 2 days ago, so is the most up to date that we have.

[SHA 2 BKK]

6 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I don't know, perhaps wait until the updated paperwork appears.

 

Or you could phone an actual Tax Consultant and ask them.

 

I'm actually in the same boat with my UK Government Pension.

 

And I don't think your DTA Exempted income is as you think it is. Exempt from Tax, yes, exempt from filing, No.

 

 

Actually I have spoken to a Tax Advisor whose strong advice is not to file as similar to pre 2024 income it’s exempt and there is simply no where to declare.   
 

But as you say continue to follow events as an updated form may come our way in the next 70 odd days. 

[The Cyclist]

Just now, SHA 2 BKK said:

Actually I have spoken to a Tax Advisor whose strong advice is not to file as similar to pre 2024 income it’s exempt and there is simply no where to declare.

 

Yes, the same info that I was given about 3 months ago, from a tax adviser.

 

However, check the latest update, from Siam legal.

[oldcpu]

18 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

I don't know, perhaps wait until the updated paperwork appears.

 

 

Wait for what paperwork?  The 2024 English language Thai tax form?

 

Again, not since 2017 (and I believe since 1969) has there been a place on a Thai tax form to list exemptions as a result of a DTA.

 

That is a LOT of time.

 

Clearly Revenue Department (RD) of Thailand would put such a field in the tax form if they wanted you to include such exempt income and then deduct such exempt income.   NOTHING has changed in this regard ... its always been than any money remitted into Thailand in the year it was earned was potentially assessable and taxable (DTA dependent).

 

Look at the 2024 Thai language version of the Thai tax form. There is no place for any DTA exemption.  Why should the English language Thai tax form be different?  In the past (year 2017 to 2023) the English language and Thai language Thai tax forms were not different in this regard, and DTAs were in existence then.

[oldcpu]

5 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

Holy Christ, that is not in dispute, There are many incomes that are only taxable in Canada, the US, The UK and every other Country that has a DTA with Thailand.

 

Glad to read you are FINALLY changing your view here.

[The Cyclist]

44 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

 

Glad to read you are FINALLY changing your view here.

 

No, yet again you miss the point completely 

 

A DTA says - Exclusive taxing rights.

 

It does not say - You do not have to comply with a Countries Tax Policy, if you are a tax resident of that Country.I

[KhunHeineken]

10 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

They always do as your repetitive scaremongering posts are no longer worth replying to!

So why do you keep bothering to reply?  

[oldcpu]

20 minutes ago, The Cyclist said:

 

No, yet again you miss the point completely 

 

A DTA says - Exclusive taxing rights.

 

It does not say - You do not have to comply with a Countries Tax Policy, if you are a tax resident of that Country.I

 

What part of 'exclusive' don't you understand in regards to which country can tax that income and which can not.

 

No where have i stated one should not comply with any country's tax policy.  I have said just the opposite and referenced Royal Decrees and also in other threads Thai tax code paragraphs.

 

 But what I have stated (in different wording) if country-A has a certain tax law, it does not by extrapolation mean country-B will have the same tax law.  I believe you are extrapolating your tax situation to that of other's with completely different DTAs.

 

I am still waiting for you to explain your post/understanding where you claim the only exempt remitted foreign income is pre-1-Jan-2024 income.

 

And still waiting for you to explain your understanding why there is no field in any Thai (neither English nor Thai language) tax return form to list as a deduction exempt foreign income per a DTA. (where Royal Decree-18 clearly states such tax exempt foreign income exists).

 

I am not asking you for some tax advisors opinion.  I want your explanation given your misleading posts.  

 

 

 

[KhunHeineken]

11 hours ago, ukrules said:

 

Will you be declaring the wads of cash portion?

No. 

[Badrabbit]

I'm sorted now well in my mind I am, tax office said " no point doing a tax return when you don't need to pay any tax" I've got two UK government pensions which can only be taxed once and in the UK, Tesco pension is so small it falls below the need to pay any tax, what thay have said is good enough for me.

[The Cyclist]

3 minutes ago, oldcpu said:

What part of 'exclusive' don't you understand in regards to which country can tax that income and which can not.

 

Well done Trigger

 

I have highlighted the exclusive taxation rights clause on multiple occassions.

 

What I am telling you is that exclusive taxation rights clause does not exempt anyone from complying with a Countries tax Law, if they are tax resident of that Country.

 

To put that in simple language, that you might be able to understand.

 

If you are a tax resident of Country A ( Thailand ) and Country A ( Thailand ) says " As a tax resident of Thailand, you will file a tax return, that is what you do.

 

Being from a Country with a DTA with Country A ( Thailand ) does not change the fact that Thailand have now told you to file a tax return.

 

Whether you pay tax or not, will depend on other factors. ( Like DTA's,  certain Visa, amount of income, and various others )

 

If you cannot grasp those  points. There is absolutely no point in replying.

[oldcpu]

1 minute ago, The Cyclist said:

To put that in simple language, that you might be able to understand.

 

If you are a tax resident of Country A ( Thailand ) and Country A ( Thailand ) says " As a tax resident of Thailand, you will file a tax return, that is what you do.

 

Being from a Country with a DTA with Country A ( Thailand ) does not change the fact that Thailand have now told you to file a tax return.

 

 

That is not exclusive.

 

Time for you to look that word up in the dictionary.