9 hours ago, ChristineC said:

Supporting Israel as a state does not require uncritical endorsement of all its actions or policies, particularly when they impact others' rights and lives.

...

Antisemitism is a vile hatred that must be opposed everywhere, but criticizing the policies of the Israeli government, especially those that violate international law or perpetuate occupation and inequality, is not antisemitic. Many Jews, both inside and outside of Israel, are critical of their government's policies, particularly with regard to the occupation of Palestinian territories and the treatment of Palestinians.

 

 

Before I get into thornier issues,  I will say I agree with much of what you've posted above.  I have written in earlier posts that not all criticism of Israel is antisemitic.  The difference between us  is possibly that I believe when criticism of Israel stretches to calls for the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state, then it does become antisemitic, often virulently so.

 

On 6/7/2025 at 10:29 AM, Evil Penevil said:

Criticism of Israel is NOT ALWAYS antisemitic.  Millions of  Jews inside and outside Israel criticize Israel's government and society on a daily basis.  Those Jews certainly aren't antisemitic, nor are many of the tens of millions of non-Jews who criticize Israel.  It's absurd to say anyone who criticizes Israel is automatically labeled as antisemitic.  It's simply not true.

 

It's a myth that anyone who criticizes Israel is automatically labeled an antisemite.

 

On 6/7/2025 at 4:41 PM, Evil Penevil said:

It's the intent of the criticism that determines whether it is antisemitic.  If the goal of the criticism is to persuade listeners or readers Israel has no right to exist as the homeland of the world's Jews,  then it is antisemitic.  If its purpose is only to register disagreement with  the Israeli government's policies and actions or indicate disapproval of some aspects of Israeli society and the lifestyle of its  people, then it isn't.

 

On 6/23/2025 at 2:02 PM, Evil Penevil said:

Furthermore, millions of Jews inside and outside Israel disagree with the policies of the Netanyahu government.  They support Israel, but not its current government. 

 

Do you agree that anyone who expresses approval of Hamas and its goal of wiping Israel off the map is definitely antisemitic?

 

9 hours ago, ChristineC said:

The tragedy of Jewish persecution over centuries, culminating in the Holocaust, undeniably justifies the need for a safe haven for Jews. However, the creation of the modern State of Israel in 1948 also involved the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, many of whom remain refugees to this day. That reality is not erased by Israel’s democratic or cultural achievements. If “Never Again” is a moral imperative, it must apply universally,not only to Jews, but to all people.

 

the chaotic aftermath of WWII, millions of people were displaced in Europe, Asia, the Middle East and North Africa.  It's not particularly shocking that 700,000 Palestinian Arabs would be forced to leave some of the areas where they had been living.  They didn't have far to go in most cases.  They were close to what was then Transjordan, Syria, Egypt and Iraq.   In terms of language, culture, religion and physical appearance, Palestinians weren't much different from Jordanians, Syrians, Egyptians and Iraqis.  They could have easily been assimilated into nearby countries, but that didn't happen.

 

Another option would have been for the Arab League and local Palestinian leaders to accept the U.N. partition plan for Mandatory Palestine, but that didn't happen either.  Yet a third option would have been for Jordan and Egypt to turn over the West Bank and Gaza to Palestinians to create a Palestinian state. 

 

However,  Palestinians and other Arabs stubbornly clung to their obsession with driving the Jews into the sea and that's why the situation looks like it does today.   The biggest single stumbling block to a permanent peace is the refusal of groups like Hamas to recognize Israel as a sovereign Jewish state.  No matter how much it might desire peace, the Israeli government faces an impossible task in negotiating with a group whose avowed goal is the destruction of Israel

 

9 hours ago, ChristineC said:

 If “Never Again” is a moral imperative, it must apply universally,not only to Jews, but to all people.

 

"Never Again is Now" is not so much a moral imperative as a practical reminder that Jews can't become complacent.  They have to be on constant guard against antisemitism and take effective countermeasures.

5 hours ago, Hanaguma said:

Your narrative is missing a few details.

 

The day after Israel declared independence, and before any Arab residents were affected, armies from FIVE COUNTRIES invaded Israel, intent on finishing what Hitler had started. They did not negotiate, did not care about anything but death to the Jews. THAT was the event that set off the Nakba.

 

And yes, many Palestinians were expelled by the Israelis. No question. Others left voluntarily because they didnt want to live in a Jewish state. Others left because they were told by the Arab League to basically get out of the way of the invading armies. And once the invasion was finished and all the Jews were dead, they could all share in the plunder. 

 

THAT is your Nakba. 

 

So now what. Jewish citizens of Arab countries were also robbed and expelled.  Did they form terrorist groups for 3 generations? No, they were welcomed in Israel.  Why were Arabs robbed and expelled from Israel not welcomed in any of the 22 surrounding Arab countries?  It defies logic. Same as the so-called "right of return".  If the Arabs kicked out of Israel have the right to return to their property, then logically the nearly one million Jews expelled from around Africa and the Middle East ALSO have the "right of return", and can go back to their homes in Algeria, Egypt, Morocco, etc.  

 

It's only fair. 

 

 

It is a bit more to the History than just the Arabs and would say with right tried to conquer them in fear for they thought this would be for them in the region. 

 

The Jewish was also the minority in the area who had used terror for decades to bee seen and heard during the vacuum of power after Ottoman Empire collapsed. But as said there is more to it than just being hostile for the creation of Israel, the Palestinians was mildly said F. Over 

 

 

The Balfour Declaration was signed in 1917. It set out British support for the creation of a homeland for the Jewish people in Palestine. 

But when the Balfour Declaration was signed, the British had already promised Palestine to Arabs as an independent state and promised the French government that it would be an internationally administered zone.

Even then, most of the land was still under Ottoman control. So why did Britain make these three conflicting promises? How did it try to resolve them? And how did Britain’s strategy in the Middle East help to cause a century of conflict?

 

https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/why-did-britain-promise-palestine-to-arabs-and-zionists

 

 

 

4 minutes ago, Evil Penevil said:

Do you agree that anyone who expresses approval of Hamas and its goal of wiping Israel off the map is definitely antisemitic?

Good question. There are not many who are pro Hamas, it’s a tool used by Jews to try to shut up pro Palestinians, similarly antisemitism has been weapon used.

Do Hamas want to kill all Israelis or all Jews wide world?

Obviously Hamas are anti Zionist and of course there will be antisemitism there.

 

Hamas are freedom fighters to some and terrorists to others, same as The IRA were.

only 5% of UN countries have labeled Hamas terrorist so it depends who you ask. Most of these are Western countries, like the USA, whose leaders are owned by the Israel lobby, so all Americans call Hamas terrorists.

 

 

18 minutes ago, Evil Penevil said:

Never Again is Now" is not so much a moral imperative as a practical reminder that Jews can't become complacent.  They have to be on constant guard against antisemitism and take effective countermeasures.

"Never Again" is not just about being on guard, it’s about being morally awake. That vigilance should extend to all people, including the civilians of Gaza. If we twist it into a slogan that justifies looking away from mass suffering, then we haven’t preserved its meaning, we’ve hollowed it out.

15 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

What do you think would happen if it was the other way around in terms of military mite? I mean if Hamas were the ones with the military strength. 

 

Here's an example of Hamas military mite.

 

On 7/19/2025 at 9:31 AM, billd766 said:

But if you read the Israeli or IDF propaganda they were all mistakes made by the most moral army in the world.

 

So ALL of those babies were armed and had already become Hamas terrorists?

 

A video quote from Netanyahu.  https://www.google.com/search?q=the+most+moral+army+in+the+world&sca_esv=9649273cc4db550e&sxsrf=AE3TifNnmVLiUEL04xPUSSuVS2pN-bg3gQ%3A1752891806874&source=hp&ei=ngF7aLqeM8SQseMP7s7RiA0&iflsig=AOw8s4IAAAAAaHsPrj-VxFVeGHP2yJ7yf8tFyCkPQR_9&ved=0ahUKEwi65efr7seOAxVESGwGHW5nFNEQ4dUDCBc&uact=5&oq=the+most+moral+army+in+the+world&gs_lp=Egdnd3Mtd2l6IiB0aGUgbW9zdCBtb3JhbCBhcm15IGluIHRoZSB3b3JsZDIIEAAYgAQYywEyCBAAGIAEGMsBMgYQABgWGB4yBhAAGBYYHjIJEAAYFhjHAxgeMgkQABgWGMcDGB4yBRAAGO8FMgUQABjvBTIFEAAY7wUyBRAAGO8FSOSgAVAAWLqHAXAAeACQAQCYAXqgAfcVqgEEMjcuNbgBA8gBAPgBAZgCIKAC5BfCAgwQIxiABBgTGCcYigXCAgcQABiABBgTwgIEECMYJ8ICDxAjGPAFGIAEGBMYJxiKBcICCBAAGBYYChgemAMAkgcEMjUuN6AHtrgBsgcEMjUuN7gH5BfCBwgyLTI1LjYuMcgH0QE&sclient=gws-wiz

 

A quote from Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purity_of_arms

 

Another from the Telegraph.  https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/04/27/israel-defence-forces-most-moral-soldiers-in-the-world/

 

There are more on the internet if people are not too lazy to do a search.

 

 

Obviously as I have 2 downvotes, at least 2 posters dislike facts or are too lazy to do their own research.

1 hour ago, Evil Penevil said:

 

Here's an example of Hamas military mite.

 

Ordinarily I would ask you to provide a link to this image you chose to post.

 

However, on this occasion I already have its antecedent from which all following examples of the form stem:

 

https://perspectives.ushmm.org/item/propaganda-poster-jews-are-lice-they-cause-typhus

 

23 hours ago, Evil Penevil said:

 Are you saying the Ulster Defence Force and the United Dairy Farmers HAVE slaughtered people in Gaza??? 

 

About what are you claiming I am 100% incorrect?  You certainly haven't disproved anything I've written.

Why are you trying to divert this thread off topic.

 

Please show my post where I mentioned Ireland.

4 minutes ago, billd766 said:

Obviously as I have 2 downvotes, at least 2 posters dislike facts or are too lazy to do their own research.

 

I'm pretty sure some posters just look top left....who posted it?......thumbs down, without even reading what has been posted.

 

I had 10 or 11 thumbs down on my posts the other day......all of them within a 2 minute time span...weird

On 7/18/2025 at 1:52 PM, Magictoad said:

The kids are often the junior terrorists who do a lot of the ground work for their big brothers and fathers. Don't let the stories of the liberal press like the Guardian fool you. If the children are not terrorists now; they will be in the future. They already are inculcated with a burning hate for Israel and all Jews.

 

And The West and anything that isn't radical Islam, when parents are saying they want their children to become Martyrs!

15 hours ago, ChristineC said:

Good question. There are not many who are pro Hamas, it’s a tool used by Jews to try to shut up pro Palestinians, similarly antisemitism has been weapon used.

Do Hamas want to kill all Israelis or all Jews wide world?

Obviously Hamas are anti Zionist and of course there will be antisemitism there.

 

Hamas are freedom fighters to some and terrorists to others, same as The IRA were.

only 5% of UN countries have labeled Hamas terrorist so it depends who you ask. Most of these are Western countries, like the USA, whose leaders are owned by the Israel lobby, so all Americans call Hamas terrorists.

 

 

 

Ask the ordinary Palestinian want they think of Hamas, using them as shields, stealing food aid and selling it whilst their leaders live the life in Qatar.

 

 

3 hours ago, billd766 said:

Why are you trying to divert this thread off topic.

 

Please show my post where I mentioned Ireland.

 

xx  I love it when one of my posts turns out better than I ever expected.   

 

 

In an earlier post you wrote (my bold blue text):

 

On 7/18/2025 at 2:32 AM, billd766 said:

So the 50 odd thousand innocent men women and children slaughtered by the UDF don't matter to you at all?

 

I replied:

 

On 7/18/2025 at 1:18 PM, Evil Penevil said:

Neither the Ulster Defence Force nor the United Dairy Farmers have even slaughtered anyone in Gaza.

 

 

and then the following when you wrote I was 100% incorrect:

 

On 7/18/2025 at 11:40 PM, Evil Penevil said:

Are you saying the Ulster Defence Force and the United Dairy Farmers HAVE slaughtered people in Gaza??? 

 

UDF is an acronym for the Ulster Defence Force or the United Dairy Farmers.  It is not the acronym for the Israel Defense Forces.  

 

Now do you get it?   

 

3 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Ordinarily I would ask you to provide a link to this image you chose to post.

 

However, on this occasion I already have its antecedent from which all following examples of the form stem:

 

https://perspectives.ushmm.org/item/propaganda-poster-jews-are-lice-they-cause-typhus

 

 

I can't give you a link because I assembled the image myself in Photoshop.     It was a play on the typo "mite" in this post:

 

20 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

What do you think would happen if it was the other way around in terms of military mite? I mean if Hamas were the ones with the military strength.

 

 

This thread will likely go nowhere, as many do, due to the involvement of too many on both sides of the conflict.

 

The only point is that the land of Israel is mentioned in the Quran 47 times, but Palestine isn't mentioned once.

 

So, you can forget the ancestral land nonsense; it's the land of Judea.

 

We don't see the same fury as when the Muslims first went into Lebanon, a Christian country and a beacon in the Middle East for fairness, equality and good governance.

 

What happened as soon as there were Muslims in numbers? Rape, massacres and genocide against the native population, that is the filth that is radical Islam.

 

They can put as many pictures as they want of a liberal LEFT LEANING MEDIA, persuaded by the propaganda and antics of the Hamas circus, showing dead babies, due to their using the population as human shields.

 

Without October 7th, NONE OF THIS WOULD HAVE HAPPENED.

 

 

49 minutes ago, Scouse123 said:

This thread will likely go nowhere, as many do, due to the involvement of too many on both sides of the conflict.

 

The only point is that the land of Israel is mentioned in the Quran 47 times, but Palestine isn't mentioned once.

 

So, you can forget the ancestral land nonsense; it's the land of Judea.

 

We don't see the same fury as when the Muslims first went into Lebanon, a Christian country and a beacon in the Middle East for fairness, equality and good governance.

 

What happened as soon as there were Muslims in numbers? Rape, massacres and genocide against the native population, that is the filth that is radical Islam.

 

They can put as many pictures as they want of a liberal LEFT LEANING MEDIA, persuaded by the propaganda and antics of the Hamas circus, showing dead babies, due to their using the population as human shields.

 

Without October 7th, NONE OF THIS WOULD HAVE HAPPENED.

 

 

Shame shame shame

 

You say the land of Israel is mentioned 47 times in the Qur’an, but Palestine isn’t – as if that settles the issue. But religious texts aren’t land deeds. By that logic, the Bible doesn’t mention “America” either – should Native Americans have no rights?

Jews have deep historical ties to the land. But so do Muslims and Christians. Jews, Muslims, and Christians lived in historic Palestine for centuries – often side by side. To claim it belongs solely to one group because of ancient scripture is theocratic nationalism.

Bringing up Lebanon to claim Muslims inherently destroy nations is simply Islamophobic. The Lebanese Civil War involved Christian militias, Muslim factions, Israeli invasions, and Syrian forces – all committed atrocities. Picking one side to blame based on religion is bigotry – not history.      

 

Calling Muslims “filth” and linking Islam wholesale to rape and genocide is blatant hate speech. Every religion – including Christianity and Judaism – has violent extremists. But collective blame is how genocides start. That kind of rhetoric isn’t just wrong – it’s dangerous. Is there no moderation on this forum?

This is the most dishonest and morally hollow part of your argument. The occupation, blockade, settlement expansion, and military violence have been ongoing for decades—long before October 7, 2023. October 7 was horrific, yes. But it was not the beginning of violence—it was a horrific escalation in a cycle rooted in decades of dispossession, siege, and impunity.  

On 9 May 2023, Israel conducted a series of airstrikes on the Gaza Strip, called Operation Shield and Arrow (Hebrew: מבצע מגן וחץ) that lasted until 13 May. This is before October!!

 

 

 

 

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

Obviously as I have 2 downvotes, at least 2 posters dislike facts or are too lazy to do their own research.

There are fundamentalist Jews here who do that to anyone who criticizes their God given rights of ALL greater Israel.

 By the expulsion or killing of ALL Palestinians, including children.

The Israeli govt has even said it will not take any orphaned children, they have to go to other countries. They are evil all in their Gods name, that can’t even be said.

 

1 hour ago, ChristineC said:

Shame shame shame

 

You say the land of Israel is mentioned 47 times in the Qur’an, but Palestine isn’t – as if that settles the issue. But religious texts aren’t land deeds. By that logic, the Bible doesn’t mention “America” either – should Native Americans have no rights?

Jews have deep historical ties to the land. But so do Muslims and Christians. Jews, Muslims, and Christians lived in historic Palestine for centuries – often side by side. To claim it belongs solely to one group because of ancient scripture is theocratic nationalism.

Bringing up Lebanon to claim Muslims inherently destroy nations is simply Islamophobic. The Lebanese Civil War involved Christian militias, Muslim factions, Israeli invasions, and Syrian forces – all committed atrocities. Picking one side to blame based on religion is bigotry – not history.      

 

Calling Muslims “filth” and linking Islam wholesale to rape and genocide is blatant hate speech. Every religion – including Christianity and Judaism – has violent extremists. But collective blame is how genocides start. That kind of rhetoric isn’t just wrong – it’s dangerous. Is there no moderation on this forum?

This is the most dishonest and morally hollow part of your argument. The occupation, blockade, settlement expansion, and military violence have been ongoing for decades—long before October 7, 2023. October 7 was horrific, yes. But it was not the beginning of violence—it was a horrific escalation in a cycle rooted in decades of dispossession, siege, and impunity.  

On 9 May 2023, Israel conducted a series of airstrikes on the Gaza Strip, called Operation Shield and Arrow (Hebrew: מבצע מגן וחץ) that lasted until 13 May. This is before October!!

 

 

 

 

“I’m not interested in playing a back-and-forth blame game or debating facts with someone who has clearly made up their mind and is more interested in vilifying than understanding.

 

I’ve said my piece, and I won’t be replying further.

 

There’s nothing to gain from a conversation rooted in hate, bad faith, or moral double standards.

 

Consider this my first and last response.”

1 hour ago, ChristineC said:

There are fundamentalist Jews here who do that to anyone who criticizes their God given rights of ALL greater Israel.

 By the expulsion or killing of ALL Palestinians, including children.

The Israeli govt has even said it will not take any orphaned children, they have to go to other countries. They are evil all in their Gods name, that can’t even be said.

 

 

“Criticising Israeli policy is fair game. But painting all Jews—religious or not—as evil, child-killing zealots is antisemitic filth. You’ve crossed from political critique into dehumanising hate speech. I won’t respond further to someone who wraps bigotry in moral pretence. No further reply from me to an antisemite.”

1 hour ago, ChristineC said:

 

The Israeli govt has even said it will not take any orphaned children, they have to go to other countries. They are evil all in their Gods name, that can’t even be said.

 

 

  I do not believe that to be true .

Do you have a link to back that up 

But why would Israel need to take any babies  in and why would they need to go to other Countries ? 

   If Israel were to take Palestine babies in , you would accuse Israel of stealing Palestinians babies and probably accuse Jews of using the stolen babies as a sacrifice and eating them 

I see some posters getting hysterical because we won't share their beliefs.

 

The truth is that they don't want any other opinions; they want their opinions expressed by us.

 

Any attempt to present a counterargument ends up with a wild-eyed stare and tantrums, reminiscent of those in a schoolyard, because they aren't being listened to.

 

It can be seen by the style in which the post is written, somebody red in the face, clacking furiously on their keyboard to force their opinion through.

 

When they don't get their own way, they scream for moderator intervention while misquoting and twisting their responses to what was originally written.

2 hours ago, Evil Penevil said:

 

 

 

xx  I love it when one of my posts turns out better than I ever expected.   

 

 

In an earlier post you wrote (my bold blue text):

 

 

I replied:

 

 

 

and then the following when you wrote I was 100% incorrect:

 

 

UDF is an acronym for the Ulster Defence Force or the United Dairy Farmers.  It is not the acronym for the Israel Defense Forces.  

 

Now do you get it?   

 

 

I can't give you a link because I assembled the image myself in Photoshop.     It was a play on the typo "mite" in this post:

 

 

 

Also a similar response expected from you. 

 

You are not worth the time responding to any more.

1 hour ago, ChristineC said:

There are fundamentalist Jews here who do that to anyone who criticizes their God given rights of ALL greater Israel.

 By the expulsion or killing of ALL Palestinians, including children.

The Israeli govt has even said it will not take any orphaned children, they have to go to other countries. They are evil all in their Gods name, that can’t even be said.

 

T really sad part is that IMHO there is no god in any religion.

 

Nobody gas ever heard from or seen a god. Nobody has ever come back from being dead and said how wonderful it is or not.

 

All the so called religious holy books were written or dictated by other people decades after the so called religious events.

 

Yet so many people declare that theirs is the one true god and that all others are false

1 hour ago, Scouse123 said:

 

“I’m not interested in playing a back-and-forth blame game or debating facts with someone who has clearly made up their mind and is more interested in vilifying than understanding.

 

I’ve said my piece, and I won’t be replying further.

 

There’s nothing to gain from a conversation rooted in hate, bad faith, or moral double standards.

 

Consider this my first and last response.”

I point out your lies and hatred and you respond with this, kinda says it all, you can’t refute anything i said. 

1 hour ago, Scouse123 said:

 

“Criticising Israeli policy is fair game. But painting all Jews—religious or not—as evil, child-killing zealots is antisemitic filth. You’ve crossed from political critique into dehumanising hate speech. I won’t respond further to someone who wraps bigotry in moral pretence. No further reply from me to an antisemite.”

So your last post to me wasn’t your last. lol.

You are the one that called Muslims filth.

I said fundamentalist Jews like yourself, you’ve got no defense so run away.

 

Speakers corner seems to be calling some posters.

 

Don't forget the blue hair, plenty of body art and nose rings, the obligatory Palestinian flag and banner, and the LGBTO+ badges.

 

Then they wonder that they aren't taken seriously.

 

 

19 hours ago, Evil Penevil said:

Never Again is Now" is not so much a moral imperative as a practical reminder that Jews can't become complacent.  They have to be on constant guard against antisemitism and take effective countermeasures.

I disagree with your stance but happy to converse as you explain your feeling eloquently, even though some facts are wrong 😀

1 hour ago, Scouse123 said:

I see some posters getting hysterical because we won't share their beliefs.

Who is “we”?
Far right Zionists?

4 hours ago, billd766 said:

Also a similar response expected from you. 

 

You are not worth the time responding to any more.

 It's OK.  You were never able to make a coherent response.