Racism In Thailand

[bangkoksingapore]

For those who do business in Thailand, do you feel that you lose face if your wife is short and dark skinned? It seems to be completely accepted in Thailand that for women, dark skin = bad, being short = bad. All of the wealthy Thai males that I know will only date tall, white skinned women, so what do they think about the fact that the majority of Farang are with dark skinned women. Does this come into play when doing business? How big of an issue is face? Do they just smile and then talk behind your back as soon as your leave?

Edited August 10, 2007 by bangkoksingapore

[Ulysses G.]

All of the wealthy Thai males that I know will only date tall, white skinned women, so what do they think about the fact that the majority of Farang are with dark skinned women.

They think that we like "ugly" women and they are not shy about telling you.

[Maigo6]

Do they just smile and then talk behind your back as soon as your leave?

How would you know if you had already left ?

[bangkoksingapore]

Do they just smile and then talk behind your back as soon as your leave?

How would you know if you had already left ?

well, ive been here long enough to see how often Thais look at another person and start commenting negatively to eachother. Ive seen this countless times if a women is a dressed too sexy or if a man is dressed inapropiately or bizarely. I have seen Thai people look at a farang and his thai wife and then comment amongst themselves with same type of negative body language...

[Maigo6]

Do they just smile and then talk behind your back as soon as your leave?

How would you know if you had already left ?

look at another person and start commenting negatively to eachother. Ive seen this countless times if a women is a dressed too sexy or if a man is dressed inapropiately or bizarely.

And this would only happen in Thailand, never in Singapore or Tokyo, Or Hong Kong or.....................take your pick from any country on earth.

[lannarebirth]

Do they just smile and then talk behind your back as soon as your leave?

How would you know if you had already left ?

well, ive been here long enough to see how often Thais look at another person and start commenting negatively to eachother. Ive seen this countless times if a women is a dressed too sexy or if a man is dressed inapropiately or bizarely. I have seen Thai people look at a farang and his thai wife and then comment amongst themselves with same type of negative body language...

Even if that were true, why would you care? Surely you're not that shallow?

[dave111223]

I'm not sure if "Racism" is the correct word?

I mean a short dark Thai woman and tall light Thai woman are both the same race correct?

[LinkPopularity]

it's a combination of elements, it's not just the looks, although it's very important here, it's also behavior, very likely that the short dark girl doesn't have much upbringing, class, style knowledge etc

so ( because you're talking about business) as long she knows how to behave and make a good impression, based on knowledge, business attitude etc, I don't think it would be a problem, they are enough business minded to forget about the looks long enough and focus on the money/deal

but face it, it very probably the other way around, meaning that your small dark skinned girl probably will say stupid stuff, have a wrong attitude and indeed give a bad impression and making it harder for you to be taking serious as a business partner ...

(my girl is tall and light skinned ;-))

[dee123]

No comment!

[DamianMavis]

Well I dont know about wives..... but I know first hand (from witnessing) what Thai people are saying about the jacka$$ falang business men that bring (short and dark skinned) hookers to hi-so functions (like a wedding!), they might have been considering doing big business with the man before but after he does that they dont want to have anything to do with him. And they dont do the girl any favors by bringing her to these functions and having her totally ignored and shunned.

Damian

[mrtoad]

it's a combination of elements, it's not just the looks, although it's very important here, it's also behavior, very likely that the short dark girl doesn't have much upbringing, class, style knowledge etc

so ( because you're talking about business) as long she knows how to behave and make a good impression, based on knowledge, business attitude etc, I don't think it would be a problem, they are enough business minded to forget about the looks long enough and focus on the money/deal

but face it, it very probably the other way around, meaning that your small dark skinned girl probably will say stupid stuff, have a wrong attitude and indeed give a bad impression and making it harder for you to be taking serious as a business partner ...

(my girl is tall and light skinned ;-))

So, you buy into the theory then? If I have read your comments correctly.

It's not racism anyway, this is about class or lack of.

[jumnien]

In the movie Barat there's a hilarious scene where he brings the ugly black prostitute to the hi-luncheon; one of the funniest scenes in modern times. Party over, everybody go home. In Thai society, I've seen farangs bring flat-out ho's to social events and while the Thais might not be open arms they are amazingly tolerant and humorous about it and usually try to be nice to the ho.

[mrtoad]

In the movie Barat there's a hilarious scene where he brings the ugly black prostitute to the hi-luncheon; one of the funniest scenes in modern times. Party over, everybody go home. In Thai society, I've seen farangs bring flat-out ho's to social events and while the Thais might not be open arms they are amazingly tolerant and humorous about it and usually try to be nice to the ho.

Yep, that Borat sketch is a classic. Always look for the Ho in tow as they say.

[buffcoat]

So if a Thai lady is short and dark skinned she is automatically a pro?!!!!!..if she is with a farang .

Do hi-so Thais give her the benefit if the doubt if she is short and fair skinned or tall and dark skinned,obviously a tall and fair skinned girl could never be a pro .

If farangs thought like that then every Thai lady would be considered a pro since they are all shorter than us and darker skinned .

Not sure if this Thai attitude (if it really exists) would be called rascism but certainly the darker skinned Thais from the North are a different ethnic mix (please correct me if I am wrong).

[jumnien]

Generally speaking I'd say the Southern Thais are darker than the northern and northeastern Thais; the farangs seem to shun these darkest when dating. As far as skin color goes, Samak is pretty dark, Sondhi, Paradorn, lots of dark-skinned famous and powerful Thais. I think farangs bring their shame with them and think everyone is looking down on them and their date because of skin color.

[bangkoksingapore]

i think that racism is an appropriate word. Their nationality might be the same, but their ethnicity isn't.

[TAWP]

It's not a matter of race, it's a matter of class. And the struggle to always pretend you are better than others.

[A_Traveller]

Have to say that the skin colouration point does seem to be widespread in Asia, not just Thailand, and as such has little if anything to do with 'race'.

The usual reasons being given are very similar to those in late 19th Century Europe, dark skin = working on the land = poor landless tenant farmer. One should note that the sun-tan is a modern {relatively} fashion decision, Coco Chanel is usually given the kudos for it, after all ladies died of lead poisoning from using white lead in their make-up.

There is also here the Buddhist tradition of lightness = enlightenment {the epistemology of that is interesting s well}, just look at temple and traditional images.

So a dark skinned individual here is viewed potentially negatively, though as the fashion of travel grows and even the Chinese are adopting the sun-tan as a measure of wealth {I'm rich, I can travel and do things you can't} then that measure may change.

On the height point, simply put diet {both yours and your parents} contribute to growth of bone and probable height as an adult {though there are genetic factors}. Therefore those who have access to better nutrition are more likely to be taller, interesting enough in ladies this often manifest as length of leg {I'm happy to say }. However, in light of the analysis, your family could afford the food required!

The point often missed by farang, and I'm not claiming I can hear it either, is the regional accent, which quickly defines an individual's status, for the listener. I recall being told I spoke Arabic with an Israeli accent {the little I did was learned in Jerusalem} and so assumptions are made on that basis.

Next, is the family name. Unlike Americans who are programmed to ask where you are from as a courtesy and automatically tell their interlocutor the state, here it really matters. The question is designed to fulfil the critical evaluation of 'Does this person come from a family [often defined by regional alliances/power bases] which I should respect', and finally confidence rules. A really strong example of this was Thaksin, whose 'wais' were infamously discourteous.

So it's not as simple as 'dark & short" but attitude, region, name, then maybe colour and height.

Personally I think it is wrong, a person is who they are, and should be respected as such, but here the hierarchy rules.

Regards

[Austhaied]

Do they just smile and then talk behind your back as soon as your leave?

How would you know if you had already left ?

well, ive been here long enough to see how often Thais look at another person and start commenting negatively to eachother. Ive seen this countless times if a women is a dressed too sexy or if a man is dressed inapropiately or bizarely. I have seen Thai people look at a farang and his thai wife and then comment amongst themselves with same type of negative body language...

Even if that were true, why would you care? Surely you're not that shallow?

Touche LRB. Enough said.

[vegas]

In the movie Barat there's a hilarious scene where he brings the ugly black prostitute to the hi-luncheon; one of the funniest scenes in modern times. Party over, everybody go home. In Thai society, I've seen farangs bring flat-out ho's to social events and while the Thais might not be open arms they are amazingly tolerant and humorous about it and usually try to be nice to the ho.

I've seen worse that that in Thailand. Some chappies proudly serenade their 5' 10" 'ladies' around chamber balls oblivious to the fact that everybody is staring and pointing.

[mittheimp]

Thailand is quite a racist country.... like almost anywhere in east Asia. However the point the OP makes is more to do with class than race. As an English man i can usually tell if someone has low education when in England by the way people talk and carry themselves, this is clearly easier for a Thai in Thailand as the differentation and cultural difference between the well educated and the rural poor is much wider. There are plenty of well educated successfull or even Hi-So short folk with dark skin in Thailand. Thus the discrimination is class not race.... this doesnt make it right, but no different to anywhere else on the palnet!

[GuestHouse]

TAWP has it right.

It's not a matter of race, it's a matter of class.

Thailand is a class ridden society and the judgment to OP refers to is an expression of Class based judgments.

Very many central Thais view Issan culture interms of it being lower class and most of the Thai women married to westerners are from Issan.

So you have class based assumptions being made on a secondary assumption of origins.

A final thing to note is that very very few foreigners are able to read the social signals Thais see in each other.

Just the same way as a Thai can be mislead in their understanding of the background and social status of westerners.

[meemiathai]

Is there a society that is not class ridden? Where?

[meemiathai]

And to the OP, my wife is dark skinned and a little bit short. And in HK which is where I am, she looks like a domestic helper and is considered one of the lowest class. But whoever judges people in that manner is considered the most brainless to me, so I either give them my middle finger or I just ignore them.

[CarlBkk]

And to the OP, my wife is dark skinned and a little bit short. And in HK which is where I am, she looks like a domestic helper and is considered one of the lowest class. But whoever judges people in that manner is considered the most brainless to me, so I either give them my middle finger or I just ignore them.

That's like fighting a losing battle. To try and change a country's perception of a "less respected" creed is indeed tiring, albeit righteous.

There's a serious amount of open prejudice and stereotyping in Thailand, where there are several dialects and creeds of people. Southerners are looked upon as dark, untrustworthy, tough-hearted. Northerners are also seen as quite strong-willed, Isaan folk are less civilised and poor. Lao, Burmese speak for themselves. As the gf region of choice/availability for farangs, Isaan is an interesting one: a huge proportion of the women are indeed short, quite dark and have facial features not deemed attractive in Thai society (deep set eyes, prominent cheekbones, small nose, protruding mouth). They're a fun-loving happy-go-lucky people, and can really be divided into the most kind, sincere, non-materialistic breed which Thai people are known for, or the low-level restaurant worker in Bangkok or prostitute (with crossover of course!). Now you can't blame your average Thai person for a) not finding a certain look/skin colour attractive, and assuming a lot are out for money (because proportions dictate that), especially those seen with farang.

In most places farangs go here, these shorter/darker girls are much more available to them than any other. Many farang don't get past this first stage to even think/look/try what is on offer elsewhere and what might be more educated, widely regarded as better looking/more feminine, better dressed, more honest and actually more compatible. I think it's a shame. Maybe some other farang here will think the same as me (after being here for a few years) and actually start seeing things from the Thai perspective as to what is/is not attractive and acceptable in general society. I'm open to dark girls, poor girls, short girls, uneducated girls maybe...but when choosing a partner (if you have the choice) I'd most definitely opt for a taller, lighter (not necessarily WHITE) girl. I've seen some shocking results, nearly every day, of young and middle-aged goodlooking expat guys with some absolute stonkers....when I really wonder why they don't put in a little effort to get much better, as they could. Am I a snob to feel embarrassed to be a put in the same jar as him at this point, when everyone is looking at them and their horseplay? Thai officegirls and students are constantly amazed and ask why farang always go for that type, thinking they themselves are not their "spec", when in actual fact they're bloody gorgeous but may not shag on the first night.

I actually DO care what Thai colleagues, neighbours, friends and strangers think about me and my choice of partner. I live in this country and would like to be accepted as not a lo-so farang with an ugly uneducated partner, but of a similar social standing to them....where my partner can socialise with typical middle-level Bangkok Thais without us having to "prove" something verbally to bypass their stereotypes again. As I said, could be a very tiring struggle....if you care.

[Jingthing]

This thread makes me wonder about something.

In the US Asian folks who think and act like white folks are called (by other Asians) bananas. Yellow outside, white inside.

What shall we call white folks who think and act like (hiso?) Thai people? Is there any fruit that fits the bill?

Yes, I think there is rampant racism by Thais in Thailand. Is there really any question about it? Thais are human and this dark trait is found all over the world. I had kind of a funny experience once. I met a medium-so Thai man who told me he was from far North Thailand. He also had really blue/green eyes that looked like hill tribe eyes to me. So I asked him if he was a hill tribe man, partly knowing this was a taboo thing to ask a Thai who wasn't. Need I even say he went ballistic? It was like I had called him an animal or something. Many Thais are racist about white folks too, some of the stereotypes they have are positive, some negative, but stereotyping is annoying.

Edited August 10, 2007 by Jingthing

[kiakaha]

For those who do business in Thailand, do you feel that you lose face if your wife is short and dark skinned? It seems to be completely accepted in Thailand that for women, dark skin = bad, being short = bad. All of the wealthy Thai males that I know will only date tall, white skinned women, so what do they think about the fact that the majority of Farang are with dark skinned women. Does this come into play when doing business? How big of an issue is face? Do they just smile and then talk behind your back as soon as your leave?

God, get a spine, who cares..we are all flesh and blood.

[GuestHouse]

Is there a society that is not class ridden? Where?

Indeed I doubt there is, though it is a matter of degree.

However, I think the real issue at the heart of the OP's post is the inability of a foreigner to read/understand the 'Class Issues' in Thailand.

What do I mean by 'degrees'? - Just look at the response of British TV members to 'Class' topics in comparison the American TV members - The Brits seem to take if far more personally, perhaps (I would argue) in response to their own personal experience.

[teacup]

There is racism/or classism everywhere, not just Thailand. People are people everywhere you go, and many will judge or try to separate themselves from others based on looks, age, money, place of residence, job, race, or skin color, etc. A person skin color just happens to be more apparent than other factors.

Since many of you are married to a dark skin girl or living amongst the group, if you look closely or around you - you will see that…..even inside an issan family, sometimes you find it there too. So please don’t be shallowed or always blamed it on the white skinned thais only!

[TAWP]

No-ones blaiming the white-skinned thais. I would blaim _everybody_.

More times than not it's the average worker in stores that will show you with their actions what they think of you. For example, go into your store with your wife but do it seperatly and see if there is any difference in treatment. or take along a white-skinned/dark-skinned friend of your wife and see if they are treated differently.

The people working in stores aren't hi-so, but they will clearly show you what they feel or what class/income-bracket they think you are in. I even see the difference between when I just have to pick something up and has to go in shorts and a t-shirt versus being dressed properly with shirt and tai...and seen it much more when the wife done the same.

Take note that people, even those that might not have high incomes, kinda like to play 'dress-up' when going to the mall to give of an apperance of higher class than they are. Might be different outside BKK...but I doubt it.