Kindness And Generosity In Thailand

[kat]

You've in the past been in an environment where most Thais you meet are migrants, hustlers, people out for a buck and with no fall-back family or social structure in place. That's not an environment where you can really grow without being either ruthless, or be cut down/taken advantage of.

please do not assume- this is not true where i live, where the families are well established and are financially stable. i do agree with SBK's/canadiangirl's point which was that if you become part of the family structure and thus are in the "inner circle", your experience would be better (despite the fact that they still see you as a farang and if you were to divorce you would be back to square one). however i have no interest in marrying a Thai guy (or even dating another one at this point), i would just like to live happily here, contribute what i can to society, and otherwise mind my own business. i do find people going out of their way to screw me though, as i am seen as a rich farang girl, and as i am solo it makes it much easier for them. it's unfortunate as i really have helped people around me quite a bit, but they do see me as a sucker and i have no "protection" from them despite the fact that they all see me every day for 3 years being a nice

I was in a similar position as you in LOS, and I do know what you are talking about. I feel your disappointment and bitterness. Asia is no doubt hard for the outsider. Most of the people participating here are insulated from this for the most part because they are married.

However, don't become totally blinded to the good. There are a lot of beautiful spirits in Thailand. Don't blank them out, because that is just as unfair as the others blanking out your goodness. I also think it may be where you live. I think it may be worse for single foreign women on the islands, but I'm not sure. At any rate, I've had good and bad experiences.

*In addition, some things may be harder for us because we are female and living alone in a society that cannot even sleep alone. Only the group is strong, so if you are not associated with one in their minds you are easy prey, especially if you have something they want.

However, my building staff in Bangkok was always very kind to me.

Edited August 15, 2007 by kat

[uptou]

I think too many people look on Thais as a different species of human that can't possibly think or act the way we Europeans do.

What's new there that so many of you find disappointing?

Is it the preoccupation with money, the dishonesty, the laissez faire attitude to life?

Thais are more like us than many outsiders care to admit and they have just as many good points and bad.

Over the last 30-odd years I've been an expat in many different cultures and I can safely endorse that the treatment you get depends very much on the company you keep.

Race, religion, language, cultural differences - they're all small time compared to your personal ability to rub along with folks and spot the users well in advance.

To all of you who've been disappointed by Thai behaviour I can only say, don't let it embitter you to the vast majority of good people there.

to me people are the same where ever you go,largely dissapointing,inherently selfish,& greedy,but hopefully can offer something.i cannot believe that when a thai is born their mind is any different than you or me,a blank sheet,just programmed to play by a different set of rules.if i come across negative behaviour in a thai i sometimes find myself blaming the whole of thai society,not sure why that is.it seems like many other farang do it also,but i try to remind myself that its just human nature rather than a thai thing.when i first started travelling around asia,everything was stimulating to me,eg being in the tropics,different people,tastes,smells,atmosphere,even the attempted minor overcharging was kind of fun to deal with.i was on a high.now after 5 years in this part of the world,there is not so much mystery,the come down,& maybe sometimes i find myself looking for negatives in thai society,when i could be concentrating more on the positives,or more importantly look inwardly.some psychology text ive read says that your identity is just an illusion,& whoever you think you are is just a vague approximation of who you really are.

i recently got a bus from songkla to hat yai after getting my passport stamped in malaysia.after getting of the bus at hat yai bus station i went & ate at a noodle stall,& then as i left i realised i'd left my hand luggage with passport on the bus.i managed to find the said bus,but after looking,no bag,& i was convinced that i'd lost it for good.as i walked to the infomation booth i was waved over,& they had kept the bag for me,still with some other valuables inside.i reminded myself that,i may have not had the same experience if in london.

also the thai guy who runs the shop outside my apartment called me sir the other day when telling me he had some mail for me.i wanted to tell him he shouldnt be calling me sir,but i thought it would come across as rude.

Edited August 15, 2007 by uptou

[Ulysses G.]

also the thai guy who runs the shop outside my apartment called me sir the other day when telling me he had some mail for me.i wanted to tell him he shouldnt be calling me sir,but i thought it would come across as rude.

It probably would come across as rude. Why would you object to someone trying to be mannerly?

[uptou]

also the thai guy who runs the shop outside my apartment called me sir the other day when telling me he had some mail for me.i wanted to tell him he shouldnt be calling me sir,but i thought it would come across as rude.

It probably would come across as rude. Why would you object to someone trying to be mannerly?

it was just meant to show an example of good nature of thais towards farang,& it made me kind of laugh calling ME sir.i'm sure if i adressed any farang as,sir,it would be amusing aswell to them.

[chinthee]

also the thai guy who runs the shop outside my apartment called me sir the other day when telling me he had some mail for me.i wanted to tell him he shouldnt be calling me sir,but i thought it would come across as rude.

It probably would come across as rude. Why would you object to someone trying to be mannerly?

it was just meant to show an example of good nature of thais towards farang,& it made me kind of laugh calling ME sir.i'm sure if i adressed any farang as,sir,it would be amusing aswell to them.

Everybody in India calls you "boss." I like it.

[bruceboy]

Thais will share everything with their friedns and family. Lovely people.

[WaiWai]

Why would you object to someone trying to be mannerly?

"Mannerly" ? Is that like The Village People or just a Merkinism ?

I totally understand the guy not feeling comfortable with being called Sir in that situation. Just tell him your name,and say please call me "Uptou" (insert real name) .

Edited August 15, 2007 by WaiWai

[November Rain]

You've in the past been in an environment where most Thais you meet are migrants, hustlers, people out for a buck and with no fall-back family or social structure in place. That's not an environment where you can really grow without being either ruthless, or be cut down/taken advantage of.

please do not assume- this is not true where i live, where the families are well established and are financially stable. i do agree with SBK's/canadiangirl's point which was that if you become part of the family structure and thus are in the "inner circle", your experience would be better (despite the fact that they still see you as a farang and if you were to divorce you would be back to square one). however i have no interest in marrying a Thai guy (or even dating another one at this point), i would just like to live happily here, contribute what i can to society, and otherwise mind my own business. i do find people going out of their way to screw me though, as i am seen as a rich farang girl, and as i am solo it makes it much easier for them. it's unfortunate as i really have helped people around me quite a bit, but they do see me as a sucker and i have no "protection" from them despite the fact that they all see me every day for 3 years being a nice person. i don't think there are many other females in my living situation in thailand- most women here have live in boyfriends or businesses working with Thai partners. i would be interested to hear from any others there might be as to what sort of experiences they have had.

BTW, girlx - I've just read the excerpt from your friend's email more thoroughly. I think he sounds a bit burnt out. I felt equally negative to HK & the HK Chinese before I left there. Having visited HK recently, I now recognise it was pure stress & burn-out on my part. I think when you feel that negative towards the society & people you're living with, it's time to recognise it & move on.

my friend does not live here, just visits annually for years now. so that's that.

i appreciate the fact that this thread has not become abusive. life is always a learning experience.

You got an experience from a single farang woman in the circumstances you describe & completely ignored it. (Apart from the bit about your friend )

OK.

I'm not being abusive. I have never been abusive towards you (unless you actually count disagreeing with you as being abusive), but here's my take:

The threads of yours I've read over the past few months have been hostile towards the Thais of your acquaintance. cdnvic might be right that this is a recent phenomenon - I don't know. Is it remotely possible that the hostility you convey here, could be seen or sensed by them? If so, it doesn't matter how many nice things you do for them, they'll know it's not heartfelt & will treat you accordingly. Maybe my burnout theory would apply to you, too?

[girlx]

i am not hostile towards them, but disappointed in and disgusted by some of them due to recent events, not all of which i have even told on here. i have never once been rude or less than solicitous to the thais i live amongst. i am a little burnt out living amongst people who seem to have no hearts, and who value money and the ability to connive over sincerity and helpfulness to one's fellow human beings. i have noticed, at least where i live, that the foreigners who defend the thais so avidly are the ones who are most blatantly being taken for a ride. these are good people who are happy here because they stick to their illusions- my illusions are starting to fade after 8 years of this shit.

that said, i do know some nice thais and couldn't tar the whole country with the same brush- it really might be the areas i have lived in that is the problem. too bad i love islands because they seem to attract the worst elements.

i still wonder though if it is not simply a cultural difference- that opening yourself up to anyone other than family is considered a weakness.

[qwertz]

Wherever you are, girlx, good friends are hard to find.

They're the ones who stand the test of time and good times and bad.

You don't need many of them, but those you manage to keep should be cherished and above all not abused.

Even good friends have limits to their tolerance.

I suspect you've made the mistake of trying to be a good friend to people who don't know the meaning of the word.

[girlx]

i expect you're right!

[meemiathai]

i expect you're right!

And yes he is right!

[meemiathai]

I think it is where you live that is the problem. I am not sure. I will have to actually meet you and see how you act to give my opinion.

BTW, I did not think girlx was being hostile to thais. I do understand her posts.

[mrtoad]

Everybody in India calls you "boss." I like it.

That's what they also call you in prison back in the UK, if you are working in one

Edited August 15, 2007 by mrtoad

[Pepe']

Goodness is universal, not cultural. You would do well to remember that.

Actually, that's a very sweet sentiment, but not very realistic. It doesn't really hold much more relevance here than an advertisement jingle. If that were true, we wouldn't have such disparate reactions to calamity and tragedy, such as rushing to help a dying or afflicted person in the street or not. These differences are not necessarily based on "goodness" or badness, just beliefs. As an individual, I can make a decision to reject these beliefs, analyze them, and judge them, or not.

From a brief history of girlx's posts, it seems that everyone in Thailand is an evil bastard, except her. Classic victim mentality.

ok, wait a minute, that can easily be flipped around. I really don't think you have a superior view, only one that represents your particular interests here, like everyone else.

-----------------------

Thank You...

[qwertz]

Yo Pepe, nice to see you're posting again.

I do sympathise with girlx because I think women are maybe looked on as an easier mark than men over there, especially if they have a nice attitude.

There's a learning curve to go through in LOS just like everywhere else - and some learn quicker than others.

But it also depends a lot on whom you hang with.

An extreme case is PatPong; anyone visiting there and other tourist spots who thinks all Thais are nice and he won't be conned is absolutely green.

Chiang Mai has also attracted some dubious pond life in recent times but the same heads up principle applies wherever you go anyway.

[Jersey_UK]

Yes! In addition there is a difference between doing good and doing good. You should help people if it enforces the good in them. That means you should help a decent person who was befallen by bad luck, but you should not help somebody (financially or otherwise) if he/she will use your assistance to pursue bad habits (gambling, cheating, drinking).

Shouldn't this post be prefaced with the words "Although I am not one to judge others, but.........."

If I had read these "rules" before - I wouldn't now be married..........I wonder if it is too late to get me money back?

[a2396]

i am not hostile towards them, but disappointed in and disgusted by some of them due to recent events, not all of which i have even told on here. i have never once been rude or less than solicitous to the thais i live amongst. i am a little burnt out living amongst people who seem to have no hearts, and who value money and the ability to connive over sincerity and helpfulness to one's fellow human beings. i have noticed, at least where i live, that the foreigners who defend the thais so avidly are the ones who are most blatantly being taken for a ride. these are good people who are happy here because they stick to their illusions- my illusions are starting to fade after 8 years of this shit.

that said, i do know some nice thais and couldn't tar the whole country with the same brush- it really might be the areas i have lived in that is the problem. too bad i love islands because they seem to attract the worst elements.

i still wonder though if it is not simply a cultural difference- that opening yourself up to anyone other than family is considered a weakness.

Don't feel bad about trying to tell an accurate story. I think you have quite a chalenging situation, if you are a woman living alone, particularly in a foreign country. S.E. Asia presents aa further set of problems for such. I think the fact you apparently live where there is a high percentage of tourists and/or other Farangs increases the baracuda mentality & behavior of the locals. As I have said before, where I live in Issan, my dealings with Thais have been very positive & pretty mcuh as I would expect back home. The exception to this is when such dealings involve some romantic encounter or with someone I may be considering for a girlfrind. Then, the ethical standards go out the window, the lying & coniving start and I get presented with the "package deal" for Farangs, which I won't go into here. If you have the option, I would sample some other ares of Thailand to relocate to or possibly to Malaysia or Singapore, which have quite a different atmosphere.

[Sanpatong]

Girlx, you're still in Chiang Mai right? Go have breakfast/lunch or dinner at Jerusalem Falafel near Thapae Gate one of these days. A Western woman runs it. Observe how she is with the Thai staff (or her Thai husband for that matter).

That should give you a clue or two. Also the food is excellent.

[girlx]

Girlx, you're still in Chiang Mai right? Go have breakfast/lunch or dinner at Jerusalem Falafel near Thapae Gate one of these days. A Western woman runs it. Observe how she is with the Thai staff (or her Thai husband for that matter).

That should give you a clue or two. Also the food is excellent.

i have seen that place- why, how is she?

[thedi]

...the foreigners who defend the thais so avidly are the ones who are most blatantly being taken for a ride. these are good people who are happy here because they stick to their illusions- my illusions are starting to fade after 8 years of this shit.

Naturally you are right, girlx.

I am myself one of this 'blatantly being taken for a ride'. And since more than 20 years still not aware of it. Stupid me

I have the feeling, that you are on the right road. Go on, live happily girlx

[Sheryl]

i don't think there are many other females in my living situation in thailand- most women here have live in boyfriends or businesses working with Thai partners. i would be interested to hear from any others there might be as to what sort of experiences they have had.

girlx, I'm in your situation, unattached and not working in Thailand. I live alone and indeed, am the only farang in the district and one of not many in the whole province. I did work in Thailand in the past (20 years ago!) and I do have Thai friends/connections dating back from that time whom I can call on for help if really absolutely necessary, although I seldom see them.

In my total of over 20 years here, I have been on the receiving end of many acts of kindness and generosity and also of the opposite, including one or two whoppers of attempted exploitation. These last I did need to call upon Thai connections to get me out of and would have been hard pressed to manage if I hadn't had any...but we are talking about a few instances over a 20 year span. Most of the time, no problem. Some strangers are kind, some aren't; sometimes my being a foreigner is the reason and sometimes it is just them. Some strangers go out of their way to help me out (even sometimes stepping in if they see another Thai being unfair or taking advantage), some want nothing to do with me and a small minority try to take advantage.

On balance, the number of times that I have received an exceptional amount of help from a Thai stranger exceed the number of times a stranger or acquaiontance has tried to exploit me. But I will add that in general negative attitudes towards foreigners is on the increase.

Of course, kindness and generosity are considered virtuies in Thailand as they are anywhere else in the world. Where I see problems sometimes occurring is when 1) what seems kind or generous to the farang has a different connotation to the Thai or 2) when being kind or generous would require the Thai to tangle with other Thais, especially iof they are of higher status or power. Some Thais feel compelled to support the Thai in any Thai-farang conflict, some don't. Virtually all Thais will steer clear of tangling with someone of higher status or power.

It does sound to me like the people you are around are an unusually bad lot. Don't know enough about the situation to say if it is the physical location or the circles you have developed, but if I were you I would think of making a change. It is not an ineveitable part of living in Thailand to have to put up with unkind treatment all or most of the time...if it were, there wouldn't be so many of use here!

[Sanpatong]

i have seen that place- why, how is she?

It's mostly an honest recommendation for the food, which is great. But she does put the fear of God into her staff. Especially when things go (slighly) wrong.

As an experiment, claim that you didn't get served something you ordered that you actually didn't order from their staff. Then sit back and enjoy.

Edited August 16, 2007 by Sanpatong

[rychrde]

Girlx, you're still in Chiang Mai right? Go have breakfast/lunch or dinner at Jerusalem Falafel near Thapae Gate one of these days. A Western woman runs it. Observe how she is with the Thai staff (or her Thai husband for that matter).

That should give you a clue or two. Also the food is excellent.

i have seen that place- why, how is she?

mmm...I think calling her western may be stretching it, if I rem the decor most likely israeli.

However, I was not impressed with the food at all, pretty bland and the sauces rather so-so.

have had better falafel in LOS from street vendors.

She was also pretty off-hand with us, the customers, so I'd dread to think of her in full flow!

Didn't go back.

rych

[lannarebirth]

i have seen that place- why, how is she?

It's mostly an honest recommendation for the food, which is great. But she does put the fear of God into her staff. Especially when things go (slighly) wrong.

As an experiment, claim that you didn't get served something you ordered that you actually didn't order from their staff. Then sit back and enjoy.

The falafels are soso the price is exhorbinant. Chiang Mai is in dire need of good falafels at a decent price. Good luck girlx.

[girlx]

thanks sheryl for your story.

you know one reason i might have problems is because i work from my house, so i don't actually go out around the village socializing so much like i would otherwise (on top of which i am pretty shy anyway). i have a kitchen so i cook at home. i don't have time during the day to hang out with the neighbors as i am working. i do go out quite often at night but i tend to keep to the same places, and most of my good friends are farangs so either i am hanging with them or they are coming to my house. i never thought this would be an issue until one day my (now ex) boyfriend and i were having a little spat and we decided to close the bar we opened together. his thai friend came over to offer him another job. but this guy sat there at my house, right in front of me, speaking in thai, saying to him "you have to choose between thai life and farang life, if you keep hanging out with this farang you can't come work with me". i was completely mystified, as i had always thought this particular guy and his family were quite sweet, and i had made english menus for his restaurant and watched his kid for him etc. never had a single problem with him and i didn't think he had one with me! i asked him to explain why he felt that way, and he blew me off, so i asked him if he would mind going elsewhere to discuss my relationship if i didn't have a say in it... he left with my boyfriend... later on i felt quite indignant and went over to his place and asked again what he meant by that. he said that he had been offended by the fact that i never patronized his business. well, i had, but not often because like i said i cook at home! but apparently, because i live so nearby and rarely go in to eat there i am now outcast by him and his family and seen as a selfish farang. go figure... another neighbor whose family i always help out (ie. serving customers in their bar when they have emergencies etc.) only really talks to me when i buy something from her, the rest of the time i am invisible. it seems like they need validation from me that i will contribute money to their businesses or they do not consider me a friend. other than that, if i am with a thai (like my ex), and thus have some way of being in that "inner circle", i am treated well, but if i am on my own, no matter how friendly i am there is always that feeling that i am not contributing enough to them. i really don't understand this! i can't say i ever felt that anywhere other than in thong nai pan though.

(...well actually, i felt that way in isaan as well- as if i am a rich farang, so if i didn't hand out cash then i was rude.)

people in chiang mai have been lovely to me so far, but i am a "tourist" here. i came to visit my thai friend and his wife though, and his wife happens to be in france at the moment, so i spent the first night here fending him off and haven't talked to him since. ugh

Edited August 16, 2007 by girlx

[JimmyCA]

From a brief history of girlx's posts, it seems that everyone in Thailand is an evil bastard, except her. Classic victim mentality.

What are you a detective? Who cares about the other posts. The OP makes good sense.

Some people will always be dicks!

[Ulysses G.]

i have seen that place- why, how is she?

It's mostly an honest recommendation for the food, which is great. But she does put the fear of God into her staff. Especially when things go (slighly) wrong.

As an experiment, claim that you didn't get served something you ordered that you actually didn't order from their staff. Then sit back and enjoy.

The falafels are soso the price is exhorbinant. Chiang Mai is in dire need of good falafels at a decent price. Good luck girlx.

I get a HUGE falafel sandwich with whole wheat pitta bread and a decent serving of bobbagonush (eggplant salad) and a large mango shake for 150 baht which tastes good and I have a hard time finishing (You can have french fries instead of the eggplant if you prefer them). Is that an "exhorbinant" for a meal price these days?

Also, Zahavit is originally Dutch which was Western last time that I heard.

[JimmyCA]

The threads of yours I've read over the past few months have been hostile towards the Thais of your acquaintance. cdnvic might be right that this is a recent phenomenon - I don't know. Is it remotely possible that the hostility you convey here, could be seen or sensed by them? If so, it doesn't matter how many nice things you do for them, they'll know it's not heartfelt & will treat you accordingly. Maybe my burnout theory would apply to you, too?

What is the problem with being hostile toward thais? Girlx is just reporting some direct experiences. If thais, thai culture, thai scams or whatever make girlx feel hostile then her experience is welcome to me .... post away.

I WISH PEOPLE WOULD STOP TRYING TO SUGAR COAT LIFE IN THAILAND. It is what it is. Most of the sods with the rose colored glasses are the ones being taken the most but are too dumb to know.

[Sanpatong]

I sense a real risk of a threat-jacking in progress (started by yours truly), turning it into one of the epic Chiang Mai food/restaurant debates. Anyway the woman owner is Dutch, from Rotterdam I believe, I think that just still qualifies as Western, and just the pita bread, hummus and salads are a blessing. Avocado is in season, too and I'll leave it at that.

---------

Girlx, you do seem to be putting yourself in a vulnerable position. If a friend of a friend is being an ass then rather than confront him about it then I'd just let it slide and then gossip him to death with your bf when he's gone. That's what Thai women would do anyway, rather than openly confront a friend of her husband.

If I had to concern myself with what friends of friends of family of my wife think about me and how often I eat or not eat in their restaurant then I wouldn't have time for anything else. (It helps if you have a wife [boyfriend] who is unconditionally on your side of course, and who will not take any bullshit from others.). In the case you stated you were already having trouble with your boyfriend who himself is perhaps not the most stable person in the world. In the end though you did good, you got the <deleted> out of there and left them to their own lovely little soap opera. Be sure to rub it in a little with your bf, text him and ask if his friend is happy now he's not with 'the farang'. Thai women are good at that snide little crap, too, it's your right in this country. (Though only if you're still going to get back with him, if not then you'd make it as clean a break as possible)

You need to move on and meet good people. There's regular ladies night's these days in chiang mai I believe, go visit some. Some Thai people attend as well I think, all good people, allegedly.

Edited August 16, 2007 by Sanpatong