Do You Feel Insecure

[englishoak]

Also, to future expats, don't assume you know how you will feel about this before you actually move here, lock, stock, and barrell. Intellectually you may be OK with it, but many of us really dislike how it feels once we are livin' it.

No truer words spoken.

Well done J

[silverhawk_usa]

I have been here on a retirement visa since 2002. I really do not agree with the posters who seem to find an attitude from Thai Immigration or the government that we are not wanted here.

As one of the early posters on this topic noted, it was the decrease in the age requirement from 55 to age 50 that allowed me to retire here sooner than I had initially anticipated. This showed ME that they were encouraging retirement in Thailand.

The increase from 400k to 800k was the first increase in many years if I remember correctly. Adjustments and other increases are to be expected after a number of years in any country. This has not occurred with any regularity that it should be seen as an overwhelming problem. IMHO.

Now they want deposits and funds to be in banks 3 months prior. It is also being said here that they will require a more "official" and legitimate proof of income letter on a "one time basis" as reported on this site. Past practice in these areas were probably seen as procedures being exploited in the system and they are closing the holes.

In what I have listed, I don't see any great changes or hardships. I don't see how these relatively minor changes can be interpreted as "not wanting us here".

Sure, an extension of more than one year would be nice, but as long as the changes to the rules are no greater or more frequent than I have seen already, I am not losing any sleep over it.

[Jingthing]

Good points, Silver. Do you rent or own your housing?

Anyway, I do not think there is any objective way of knowing whether they want us here or not. It doesn't really matter. The visa policies matter. My opinion is it appears they don't want us VERY MUCH. If they did, they would have fixed the temporary nature of the retirement extension. People have been complaining about this for many years, so they have to know we don't like that part of it. Retirement is a lifetime decision, not an annual decision.

Your point about liberalizing the age requirement is well taken. It helped me too and I appreciate it. Note that some of Thailand's competition offers alternatives for under 50 year olds as well.

Edited August 20, 2007 by Jingthing

[silverhawk_usa]

Good points, Silver. Do you rent or own your housing?

Anyway, I do not think there is any objective way of knowing whether they want us here or not. It doesn't really matter. The visa policies matter. My opinion is it appears they don't want us VERY MUCH. If they did, they would have fixed the temporary nature of the retirement extension. People have been complaining about this for many years, so they have to know we don't like that part of it. Retirement is a lifetime decision, not an annual decision.

Your point about liberalizing the age requirement is well taken. It helped me too and I appreciate it. Note that some of Thailand's competition offers alternatives for under 50 year olds as well.

I rent my home here, but for a number of different reasons. I don't see housing as a good investment here and also I like the freedom to move as I my situation may dictate. Not necessarily to another country but also just to a different part of the country, if my neighbor's dogs bark too much, if I find something I like better, who knows. Rent is cheap enough that I don't feel I am losing anything.

Don't expect a fix just because people complain about it. How many laws or regulations do people complain about in their home countries that are never changed?

I don't know that I look at it as a competition between countries. I chose Thailand because I liked it here after a couple vacations. The retirement age helped me make my decision. I didn't even consider, and still haven't, another country.

As this post was specifically about the retirement extensions I'll just again say I don't feel it is that bad and would not consider leaving just for that reason. That said, there are a lot of other factors that also come into play (which also add to my reasons for renting and not buying), but I'll save that discussion for another topic.

[Jingthing]

OK, thanks Silverhawk.

Adding ammunition to the argument that they don't want us very much, just last year they eliminated in investment visa which was the only retirement visa option for those under the retirement visa age.

By competition I mean that the countries all over the world that do accept expat retirees are in competition for this source of hard currency, whether you are aware of it or not. Thailand isn't one of the aggressive players in this competition based on their policies. The Philippines is the most aggressive because they believe that for each foreign retiree that settles there, four Filipino jobs are created. So they want 2 million of us. Its fair to assume that a similar equation holds true in Thailand. You have got to know they don't want 2 million of us here.

BTW, I think you totally incorrect that massive complaining would not work IF we are really wanted. Expats in the Philippines have been complaining for many years that the dollar deposit amount for their lifetime retirement program was too high, and thus the program wasn't popular. They recently reduced the one time required dollar amount dramatically.

(From 50K USD for those over 50 down to 20K and only 10K for those with pensions).

What would really work (again if they really want us) is for retirees to stop retiring here and stop buying real estate here in a dramatic way. I think they would notice. Certainly Bangkok Pattaya Hospital would be displeased. Not to mention the big condo developers.

It could very well be that the Thai authorities are conflicted about having us here. Maybe they do not think we provide the benefit the Philippine government thinks we do. Perhaps we don't. Of course, they don't have to let us stay at all. If they do, you have to think it is because they are winning on the deal. If they decide they are losing on the deal, well, then its over. It is all about the money. Maybe it should be all about the money. But sometimes I feel the pure money motivation here (which doesn't bother me) is mixed with something more irrational.

Edited August 20, 2007 by Jingthing

[wpcoe]

My perception is that Thais and their country are very materialistic. As long as the fees collected by Immigration are at the level they are now or greater, Thailand will always welcome retirees. That is without going to the issue of our cash contribution to the Thai economy by our spending and house buying.

I had a talk with the former head of Immigration in Chiang Mai, who complained to me that she was generating hundreds of thousands of baht a month in profit, income over salaries of immigration personnel and office expense, for the Thai government and yet she was so poorly paid. I guess she felt she was a de facto CEO.

Anyway, if the truth be known, my guess is nationwide, falang pay incredible amounts of fees for coming into, staying and leaving Thailand and there is no way the government wants that to end.

How about having their cake and eating it, too? i.e. Double the fees and make the visa/extension for two years, or triple the fees and make it three years, etc. In such a way, they would maintain the same (apparently lucrative) income flow, but actually decrease costs.

I, for one, would gladly pay double the fee for a retirement extension with a two-year permission to stay. Or, even better, five times the fee for a five-year permission to stay.

For those who balk at committing to two or five years (or whatever multiple) they could keep the current one-year extension as an option.

[edited for clarity (I hope <g>)]

Edited August 21, 2007 by wpcoe

[Jingthing]

Yes, I would happily pay ALOT more for security. Bring it on.

[thaigene2]

I dont see any reason why Thailand will want us to leave . I have never felt insecure -unwanted -threatened in my 6 years of being in Thailand . I think people worry too much and if some people feel that are not liked they might maybe should ask themselves why .

JB

JB

It's not that they want you to leave per se, it's just that they don't really want you to stay...Khao jai mai? Thai logic!

[Jingthing]

Kao jai. Jing Jing says Jingthing.

[bunple]

Jingthing you quoted "BTW, I think you totally incorrect that massive complaining would not work IF we are really wanted. Expats in the Philippines have been complaining for many years that the dollar deposit amount for their lifetime retirement program was too high, and thus the program wasn't popular. They recently reduced the one time required dollar amount dramatically. (From 50K USD for those over 50 down to 20K and only 10K for those with pensions)."

have you got a link to this on the web, everything I've read on the Philippines says $50k, at $20k this would be a great plan-B if it goes tits-up in Toyland.

[Jingthing]

Jingthing you quoted "BTW, I think you totally incorrect that massive complaining would not work IF we are really wanted. Expats in the Philippines have been complaining for many years that the dollar deposit amount for their lifetime retirement program was too high, and thus the program wasn't popular. They recently reduced the one time required dollar amount dramatically. (From 50K USD for those over 50 down to 20K and only 10K for those with pensions)."

have you got a link to this on the web, everything I've read on the Philippines says $50k, at $20k this would be a great plan-B if it goes tits-up in Toyland.

Yep, sure thing. The amount is 20K for over 50 people, and 50K for under 50 years (that was also reduced from 75K). Thats a one time deposit good for life, but you do need to pay an annual fee to stay in the program.

You are finding old info because this change is recent. You can also stay there for years on a tourist visa, totally legally and without the silly stigma attached to visa runners in Thailand. Used to be you had to fly out every 12 months and then back in. Recently, that was liberalized also so you can stay as long as 16 to 24 months without a visa run (but you need many in country extensions).

http://www.plra.gov.ph/main/index.php?pid=178〈=1

Edited August 21, 2007 by Jingthing

[dogleg]

Jingthing you quoted "BTW, I think you totally incorrect that massive complaining would not work IF we are really wanted. Expats in the Philippines have been complaining for many years that the dollar deposit amount for their lifetime retirement program was too high, and thus the program wasn't popular. They recently reduced the one time required dollar amount dramatically. (From 50K USD for those over 50 down to 20K and only 10K for those with pensions)."

have you got a link to this on the web, everything I've read on the Philippines says $50k, at $20k this would be a great plan-B if it goes tits-up in Toyland.

Yep, sure thing. The amount is 20K for over 50 people, and 50K for under 50 years (that was also reduced from 75K). Thats a one time deposit good for life, but you do need to pay an annual fee to stay in the program.

You are finding old info because this change is recent. You can also stay there for years on a tourist visa, totally legally and without the silly stigma attached to visa runners in Thailand. Used to be you had to fly out every 12 months and then back in. Recently, that was liberalized also so you can stay as long as 16 to 24 months without a visa run (but you need many in country extensions).

http://www.plra.gov.ph/main/index.php?pid=178〈=1

Well that kind of killed the conversation didn't it?

Thanks a lot for the link Jingthing. Makes it look more like a plan A than B.

Does anybody have actual experience of and can compare Thai and Phillipine's systems of retirement and maybe work permits?

[capaotung]

Yep, sure thing. The amount is 20K for over 50 people, and 50K for under 50 years (that was also reduced from 75K). Thats a one time deposit good for life, but you do need to pay an annual fee to stay in the program.

You are finding old info because this change is recent. You can also stay there for years on a tourist visa, totally legally and without the silly stigma attached to visa runners in Thailand. Used to be you had to fly out every 12 months and then back in. Recently, that was liberalized also so you can stay as long as 16 to 24 months without a visa run (but you need many in country extensions).

http://www.plra.gov.ph/main/index.php?pid=178〈=1

Hi, just a quick post (haven't checked the link, just going from memory from what some friends living in the PH recently told me) with a couple of minor corrections: the deposit can be used to buy condos, lease houses and even pay for golf courses (!) and the annual (small) fee is due only if you use the deposit.

RE tourist visas, you have to extend them just every two months, so 12 extensions for two years (they cost 1300 Baht).

[thaigene2]

Yep, sure thing. The amount is 20K for over 50 people, and 50K for under 50 years (that was also reduced from 75K). Thats a one time deposit good for life, but you do need to pay an annual fee to stay in the program.

You are finding old info because this change is recent. You can also stay there for years on a tourist visa, totally legally and without the silly stigma attached to visa runners in Thailand. Used to be you had to fly out every 12 months and then back in. Recently, that was liberalized also so you can stay as long as 16 to 24 months without a visa run (but you need many in country extensions).

http://www.plra.gov.ph/main/index.php?pid=178〈=1

Hi, just a quick post (haven't checked the link, just going from memory from what some friends living in the PH recently told me) with a couple of minor corrections: the deposit can be used to buy condos, lease houses and even pay for golf courses (!) and the annual (small) fee is due only if you use the deposit.

RE tourist visas, you have to extend them just every two months, so 12 extensions for two years (they cost 1300 Baht).

Well, well, let's learn more. Filippinos are friendly like thais, funnier, and can speak bloody good english!! Now if they could only trim down a bit..just kiddin..it sounds like a great Plan B to me!! If they are interested in me (really just kidding about the flabby bits!) then I may well be interested in them!