Patriotism, Moraliy, Ethics, Et Al

[chevykanteve]

This is a front-page photo caption in today's BKK Post Internet edition:

A hard-hitting campaign

Council for National Security chairman Gen Sonthi Boonyaratkalin hits a punching bag with the message ``Don't Be Selfish'' written on it, after he declared open activities yesterday at Siam Square Soi 3 to encourage young people to embrace patriotism, morality, ethics and democracy. —

The height of morality is practicing what we preach. That means of course that I agree with the above.

[ColPyat]

Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Samuel Johnson, April 7, 1775

[bangkoksingapore]

what is open activities?

[Mid]

Morality, like art, means drawing a line someplace.

Oscar Wilde

Irish dramatist, novelist, & poet (1854 - 1900)

Science cannot stop while ethics catches up -- and nobody should expect scientists to do all the thinking for the country.

Elvin Stackman

You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution

G. K. Chesterton (1874 - 1936)

[Jingthing]

Well, the ethics and democracy parts sound rather nice.

[WaiWai]

Will the young people be attending voluntarily ? ?

[OxfordWill]

Morality, like art, means drawing a line someplace.

Oscar Wilde

Irish dramatist, novelist, & poet (1854 - 1900)

Said like a true ethical generalist. "Oh my god, what do I do with this ethical dilemma??? Quick, where is the rule book??? Ah yes, page 4. Phew."

Science cannot stop while ethics catches up -- and nobody should expect scientists to do all the thinking for the country.

Elvin Stackman

Agreed, but scientists should simply verse themselves in ethics- ethics is way ahead of science in terms of percentage of subject ground covered. Again a citation from someone not well versed in ethics.

Personally I reckon patriotism is the perfect way to lead Thai youth into exploring ethics. Its the country's strongest lever.

[Mid]

Personally I reckon patriotism is the perfect way to lead Thai youth into exploring ethics.

not when the version of patriotism includes white washing history ......................................

[chinthee]

Mid, waay too late to change things now. I think whitewash will be widely and liberally available in the coming years.

[ColPyat]

Personally I reckon patriotism is the perfect way to lead Thai youth into exploring ethics. Its the country's strongest lever.

In the name of patriotism far too many people have been killed here in not exactly ethical ways throughout contemporary Thai history.

On the opposite - the perfect way to teach Thai youth ethics is by exposing the many faults of patriotism, and how through patriotism people are duped into committing the most heinous acts (and not just in Thailand...).

[OxfordWill]

Personally I reckon patriotism is the perfect way to lead Thai youth into exploring ethics. Its the country's strongest lever.

In the name of patriotism far too many people have been killed here in not exactly ethical ways throughout contemporary Thai history.

On the opposite - the perfect way to teach Thai youth ethics is by exposing the many faults of patriotism, and how through patriotism people are duped into committing the most heinous acts (and not just in Thailand...).

What you are saying there is that just because something has some bad sides to it, we should not make use of it when it can be used for good. You didn't mean that right?

They have patriotism, it's not going anywhere, let them rally behind it for good ends.

[cmsally]

What does it say in the section about military coups?

You may have noticed in the last few days there has been a huge media backing for the constitution (well they say to go and vote). But when you get actresses hugging the PM, then we get the hint he's a pretty popular guy, so we guess the media blitz is FOR the constitution - right?

Siam Square is just another propaganda stunt aimed at the younger voters. They my just as well launch a circus; how about some healthy open debate to encourage people to use their brains. I sorry I forgot, that's not what we are supposed to do.

[cmsally]

Whoops spelling errors -

What does it say in the section about military coups?

You may have noticed in the last few days there has been a huge media backing for the constitution (well they say to go and vote). But when you get actresses hugging the PM, then we get the hint he's a pretty popular guy, so we guess the media blitz is FOR the constitution - right?

Siam Square is just another propaganda stunt aimed at the younger voters. They may just as well launch a circus; how about some healthy open debate to encourage people to use their brains. Oh sorry I forgot, that's not what we are supposed to do.

[Mid]

interesting that nobody touched the final quote ....................................

[chinthee]

interesting that nobody touched the final quote ....................................

What about a quasi-democracy? Better than nothing.

[Mid]

What about a quasi-democracy? Better than nothing.

am I to accept that better than nothing is the pinnacle of aspiration ??

[chinthee]

What about a quasi-democracy? Better than nothing.

am I to accept that better than nothing is the pinnacle of aspiration ??

Look around you. Singapore, Hong Kong, Philippines, even Malayasia. Need I say more? It's as good as it gets in this part of the globe.

[ColPyat]

What you are saying there is that just because something has some bad sides to it, we should not make use of it when it can be used for good. You didn't mean that right?

They have patriotism, it's not going anywhere, let them rally behind it for good ends.

What may appear as "good" for you, is not necessarily the same for me.

A very good read for you would be "Rituals of National Loyalty" by Katherine E. Bowie. This study exposes very well Thai style patriotism and how it is used.

[jasreeve17]

What you are saying there is that just because something has some bad sides to it, we should not make use of it when it can be used for good. You didn't mean that right?

They have patriotism, it's not going anywhere, let them rally behind it for good ends.

What may appear as "good" for you, is not necessarily the same for me.

A very good read for you would be "Rituals of National Loyalty" by Katherine E. Bowie. This study exposes very well Thai style patriotism and how it is used.

Nationalism has been well sold in Thailand.

If you spend some time at the Unis and speak to the students you won't find many free thinkers here.

Whose good ends?

[OxfordWill]

What you are saying there is that just because something has some bad sides to it, we should not make use of it when it can be used for good. You didn't mean that right?

They have patriotism, it's not going anywhere, let them rally behind it for good ends.

What may appear as "good" for you, is not necessarily the same for me.

A very good read for you would be "Rituals of National Loyalty" by Katherine E. Bowie. This study exposes very well Thai style patriotism and how it is used.

Now you're creating a straw man to escape the original point in question, presumably having realised that I have a point. We can write books about how Thai patriotism has been used for bad ends (oh, I see someone already has) but that of course is irrelevant unless you are making an entirely new point that you think everything touched by Thai patriotism will turn to evil badness, in which case I will disagree with you all over again.

Miid- nobody touched the last quote because there was nothing wrong with it.

whose good ends?

Any end which we would agree is good, such as Thai students exploring ethics in any fashion (ala "thinking").

Edited August 18, 2007 by OxfordWill

[rafval]

my observation is that many young thais know exactly what is going on, thats why the ruling class is freaking and trying to repress clothing and the internet, I think things will be fine here when this next generation comes thru, in bangkok anyway

[OxfordWill]

They are definitely more knowledgeable than most of us give them credit for. As opposed to the apathy growing among the youth in the UK, for example. Mind you among my friends I have asked who is voting this weekend and only two have answered yes..

[GuestHouse]

You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution

G. K. Chesterton (1874 - 1936)

France - Russia - China (and a few others) have all demonstrated that the above quote is total <deleted>.

[chinthee]

You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution

G. K. Chesterton (1874 - 1936)

France - Russia - China (and a few others) have all demonstrated that the above quote is total <deleted>.

GH, my point exactly, though they are mostly flawed democracies. Not sure about your cite to China unless you mean Taiwan?

[A_Traveller]

my observation is that many young thais know exactly what is going on, thats why the ruling class is freaking and trying to repress clothing and the internet, I think things will be fine here when this next generation comes thru, in bangkok anyway

But guess what, this generation {in that position then} were saying the same {relative} things, but when they arrived it was simply more of the same.

Regards

PS Please don't tell me anyone here thinks there has been anything closely approaching a meaningful democracy here.

[steveromagnino]

You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution

G. K. Chesterton (1874 - 1936)

France - Russia - China (and a few others) have all demonstrated that the above quote is total <deleted>.

GH, my point exactly, though they are mostly flawed democracies. Not sure about your cite to China unless you mean Taiwan?

I think he means the opposite; China has had a revolution without ever having a democracy. Quote seems a bit meaningless.

Do I ge the 5 points and not have to clean the blackboard now GH?

[chinthee]

You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution

G. K. Chesterton (1874 - 1936)

France - Russia - China (and a few others) have all demonstrated that the above quote is total <deleted>.

GH, my point exactly, though they are mostly flawed democracies. Not sure about your cite to China unless you mean Taiwan?

I think he means the opposite; China has had a revolution without ever having a democracy. Quote seems a bit meaningless.

Do I ge the 5 points and not have to clean the blackboard now GH?

Oh..., what he said. I didn't read it carefully, and as someone who's lived in both Russia and China extensively, agree with both of you! China had an economic revolution; Russia had something else. Russia calls itself democratic; China does not. China's working significantly better than Russia now.

[jasreeve17]

I do not agree with OxfordWill and rafval.

Thai students have a very superficial knowledge of "what's going on".

Do they agree with a coup - no, in theory, but actual it was useful this time...

Do they want democracy - well yes, maybe, no, they say; "Thailand is not ready for it."

Beyond that it's all as the elites would like it to be. All the principles of nationalism, patriotism and Thaiism are strongly ingrained in the students.

When you start looking at the underlying control mechanisms they are extremely strong here, and the Thai students do not wish to challenge them - they believe them. Actually they'd rather go shopping in Siam sq anyway.

OxfordWill, please be aware that it would be very difficult to find more apathetic students in the World than here. The normal types of political clubs and societies in the UK (and most countries) would not be permitted here. There is no debate taking place in the Thai universities. Full stop. Even now, with all the political goings on, there is virtually no political debate going on, or allowed to go on, in the universities here.

[OxfordWill]

Taking on board your post I will say I agree and retract what I said about it being worse in the UK. I really did mean "knowledgeable" and not active or involved. I think when I wrote that I was thinking exclusively about the Thais I know back home in the UK as I do not come into contact much with students here in Bangkok. Those that I have met pretty much fit your model.

Once or twice though you read or hear about a group of them lobbying in some way for something or other, which is refreshing/optimistic. I do think we should give many of them more credit though. There is one chap in my apartment block who studies law at Ram uni, he has strong opinions on politics and for the most part is rational. He just seems only to be able to discuss them with me as a farang and other farangs. Although clearly among his close friends he has done the same. I wouldnt say he was too special? A minority definitely.

Edited August 18, 2007 by OxfordWill

[Mid]

There is no debate taking place in the Thai universities. Full stop

worse as a google of some

unmentionable words

will reveal ..................