Are Farangs Who Marriages Failed Lucky?

[qwertz]

CP, I'll say it again.

You're coming across a little prissy here.

I'd really like to know why this particular peccadillo burns you up.

Come on, level with us, why does such a pair turn you off?

The truth now, please.

[SiamSquare123]

can i quote Kant?

"be wary the man who has repressed his feelings and most deepest desires, for he will hate those who have lived purely and freely from the heart. he claims morality and nobility but only in guise, for his true motives are jealousy and hatred".

[Dustoff]

Yes, I did realize that you were kidding which is why I put the LOL at the beginning of my response.

Disallowed to leave my home? And whaddya mean, "at your age"?! Too old for fun and adventure, am I? Don't think so.

How about balloons? Are we allowed to go up in Balloons?

Thanks for your response - cool posts, meemaithai...

Not taking a hit at you personally Dustoff but what about kids? Would you knock her up knowing that most probably you won't be here anymore when your kids reach adulthood?

I guess in your case she's had her kids already but if not would you feel comfortable with that? I wouldn't but that's me.

No worries, Meom - I would not take a comment or question as an insult unless it was obviously intended as one.

"Knock her up"? Wow, that took me back to the sixties - do people still use that terminology? Grins..

We certainly discussed this but I have a son in his 40's, an adopted daughter who is 29 who has visited us here in CM and we saw her again in Colorado a couple of months ago and I have a wonderful step-son with my wife who is twelve years old.

I did however check with several docs and the internet only to find that the chances of a successful reversal of my 1969 vasectomy are slim to none.. Besides, now at 37 years of age, and given how much she has on her plate, she has decided to suppress any desire to have another child.

But I am with you and that was certainly part of our discussion - that by the time any child of our's reached high school, I would be little more than a crumpled old pile of crap, if even alive.

Thanks for asking..

[SiamSquare123]

you should also realize that many 55 year old farang who marry in isaan are much more youthful than your average 55 year old farang. many of them are avid video game players. if you go to some of the arcades around bangkok, you will notice that there are usually a handful of these guys in there on a saturday afternoon when school is out playing video games or karaoke with their wife.

just yesterday i was in cali fitness gym doing my standard set of 8 reps of bench press with 100 kg's (thanks, i work hard to get this result and muscle) and i got stuck one of my reps and a 55 year old guy very fit saved the bar from crushing me. so it goes to show you that age is just a number.

an old dude can be fit, smart and play video games just as good as his young wife.

WE WILL ALL GO OLD ONE DAY.

Edited August 24, 2007 by SiamSquare123

[SiamSquare123]

to the person who said i was the only person who made sense in 25 pages. thank you. i try to be honest and fair, and i think that is the key to succeeding in a different culture.

[WaiWai]

I support ColyPat .

It's the non-even playing field that allows such bizarre relationships, and will, eventually, undermine most.

Edited August 24, 2007 by WaiWai

[ColPyat]

CP, I'll say it again.

You're coming across a little prissy here.

I'd really like to know why this particular peccadillo burns you up.

Come on, level with us, why does such a pair turn you off?

The truth now, please.

What turns me off mostly is - exactly how WaiWai has expressed it - the non-even playing field people take advantage off without the slightest bit of self-reflection. People do so because their socio-economical advantage allows them to. Just because one can do - does not mean that one should do so.

We are coming from a particular set of ethics, and sorry, even when some celebrities behave that way does not mean that this is to enthusiastically recommended, and to be excused. And even here this is not as accepted as many might believe. Of course people with a socio-economical advantage do so, because they can. And many don't. But it still is somewhat frowned upon.

Yes, more than a few Farang do so, and people will generally not be as direct as i am here, but they still talk under themselves, resulting in some not very nice stereotypes about us Farang being sex-crazed, lacking decorum and similar not so nice attributes. We are some sort of oddity here, especially when displaying behavior in public that goes against any politeness here, such as running around with beach attire and a beer in the hand (Original Post...).

But you have to live within Thai society to realize these stereotypes, i guess, and speak Thai well, to see how much it hurts to be judged along the lines far too many Farang here are judged, and unfortunately deservedly so in more than a few cases.

But that doesn't phase you anyhow - you come to visit, and never commit yourself. Disneyland for adults. It is the Land of Smile because you feel happy here, no matter all the social/political/economical problems. For you it is paradise on earth, and so it has to be for everybody else.

Edited August 24, 2007 by ColPyat

[qwertz]

Well, okay, but I don't see myself as an oddity, other than being a farang in Thailand.

I get respect from those Thais who are capable of extending it, simply because I don't forget my manners wherever I am.

So there are some louts there - what's new?

I see a fair amount of loutish behaviour from Thais too, especially the younger ones.

And I think, bearing in mind my humble background, I'd have a problem knowing where to begin with lording it over poor people.

Maybe you're right, I'm a one off, so my philosophy is diametrically opposed to yours.

The major difference between us is that I can't change my views so late in life; it's possible you might though.

[ColPyat]

Well, okay, but I don't see myself as an oddity, other than being a farang in Thailand.

I get respect from those Thais who are capable of extending it, simply because I don't forget my manners wherever I am.

So there are some louts there - what's new?

I see a fair amount of loutish behaviour from Thais too, especially the younger ones.

And I think, bearing in mind my humble background, I'd have a problem knowing where to begin with lording it over poor people.

Maybe you're right, I'm a one off, so my philosophy is diametrically opposed to yours.

The major difference between us is that I can't change my views so late in life; it's possible you might though.

Loutish behavior from Thais does not excuse our own. In one of my many posts i have said already that older people have more sexual freedoms than in the west, as long as things are kept private, and not thrown in other people's faces. The topic of the original post(er) was straight into everybody's face.

And, if you remember, what started that whole row here, was that i felt embarrassed with such a mismatched couple i had the misfortune running across in my local department store, having extremely limited common communication and the bloke replacing it by wide gesturing and shouting, and that i was embarrassed by it.

I would not have been half as embarrassed if that lopsided couple, especially the bloke, would have displayed a bit more restraint, and shown some consideration.

[Choscura]

Are farangs who marriages failed in the West luckier than those who marriages were successful? You go out in Bangkok and you see a 55 year old guy dressed in beach attire riding the skytrain with his twenty-two year old wife, and then you see another set of farang 55 year old husband and wife and she looks like she weighs 80 kg. So doesnt this mean that the farang who drank too much and wrecked his marriage back home and escaped to Thailand is luckier than the farang who didnt drink too much and is still married?

what I think is funny is that the young thai women get a taste of farang men/culture (whatever, i have no idea which is actually more appealing) and then they go and cheat on the old farang guy with a younger farang guy. I've been in this equation, so have a good number of my friends. it's kind of degrading for both guys involved, on the one hand the old guy finds out exactly how much he's worth- whatever his income statement says, and nothing more- and on the other hand the young guy generally finds out that sex is less important to the girl than money, which is also damaging to the ego.

not that much, though. all you old dutch retirees, look out! I'm comin after your girlfriends!

just a quick edit: I think it should be mentioned that never has the girl said up front (in this wierd kind of relationship) "oh, I'm seeing someone else". it usually happens a month or two months after you've been going out with the girl. I got lucky, the girl flat out told me "this is what's going on". one of my friends got really messed up by a girl who he found out was cheating on him, and then found out was using him to cheat on someone else. went through a few years of 'all women are whores!' because of that, so count your blessings.

Edited August 24, 2007 by Choscura

[a2396]

I hate to see this topic die on the vine after a few short posts. It seems like the old geezers, even in America, are indulging in the playfull activity, seemingly though reserved for the younger set. This brings up an interesting dilemma for some of the more pious in the pop. If, sex is reserved for only "makiin' babies", (as some religions believe) then they better get a wife capable of producing one, or maybe I guess, just the act of trying and THINKING you (ie you lady) can produce a baby is good enough to keep you from the pitchfork brigade. I sure am confused about all these holy comandments, just tryin to do the right thing. Sorry, I couldn't resist. An interesting article (attached). A gray area indeed.

Sex_is_a_gray_area.doc

[kat]

I don't know. There is no rule, and neither do i try to make one. Why do you guys have to always pick and choose what offends you personally for some unknown reason, and purposely misunderstand what is said? Kat brought this victimization issue into the debate, which was a very smart argument. It is you to decide if you prefer to view yourself as a victim, or to lead an open and intelligent discussion, in which we question others and ourselves as well, and maybe can learn something.

I have posted that i won't judge your relationship here, i don't know any of you.

This whole thing started with an original post that was nothing but offensive. Maybe you should go back and read that post again, and why i found it worthwhile to argue with this post, and why then some 'victims' found an opportunity to defend themselves even though not attacked, by attacking us, side tracking this whole thing.

ro

And some very gross statements by the OP were ignored, even supported by my opponents, and that was for me a reason to question their motivations.

You guys, Please STOP for a moment. I like all of you quoted above here (except for MikeVigo and Uncle Frank - I don't know them), but yet we are all different, and probably live our lives very differently. Although I need to get my life together and pull away from the forum again, I don't want to leave this thread in its current state.

For the record, I don't have a simplistic viewpoint based on the narrow duality of "good" or "bad", "oppressed" or "oppressor", "feminist" or "misogynist", "bigot" or "senior husband with young Thai wife." My own life hasn't been lived strictly along those lines, although those lines do exist. But, I know there is a lot that also exists in between. I have a far more complex view than solely looking at Western/Thai and old/young relationships, and most of you who know me will know that, although we may not agree on everything; I always see the individual and individual circumstances. But, I am a researcher, and researchers look at general trends and patterns, hypothesize, and substantiate. I think I've done that plenty during my years here at Thaivisa, and I don't have time to keep inventing the wheel. If you want to know what I mean, just read my posts (the ones that haven't been pulled anyway). I don't view Thai women as victims, and I don't think I've ever once said this, but I do look at their place in society as a whole, and how this position and cultural framework creates the conditions that I have discussed on various topics here.

I don't have time to go in depth, so I'm just going to post a few things that I view as true here, without any qualifications:

Canadian Girl is a very smart and sweet young woman. From my perspective as a woman in her 40s, she is very young, the way twenty-somethings generally are. We have all been and can remember, right? If not, we should.

ColyPat is a very intelligent man who knows a lot about Thai culture, who is honest, and is able to discuss social issues without tempering them for his own comfort. I have a lot of respect for him.

Lannarebirth is a very balanced and nice man on this forum. He is an example of someone whose life and outlook on this thread is different from mine, but whom I respect nonetheless.

Dustoff seems like an attractive and vibrant older man, judging from his avatar and postings. I don't doubt that he is not a good person, but I don't come on these threads to evaluate whether you are a good or bad person, but rather to discuss the social trends in Thailand as I see them happening around me. That doesn't make me a bigot, that makes me a realist.

I don't view Thai women or Thai people as victims. I think there is a lot of beauty there, and a lot of pain and social problems, but NOT the same as everywhere. If we keep saying everything is the same, we never really learn how they are different. One thing I know for sure, is that there are plenty of variables on the victim theme, especially in Thailand. There is also a pattern of hatred and derogatory statements aimed at Western women on forums related to Thailand.

There are a lot of people with whom I have found friendship, respect, and support in Thailand. Many were farang women, some where Thai, and - are you ready for this - some were farang men with Thai wives/girlfriends. My major issue here is not what exists so much - because I don't think foreigners are the root cause of it - but rather with the pattern of denial that exists, and the accompanying condescension and derision of those with the courage to question and understand why they do exist.

In terms of Uncle Frank and Mike Vigo above, again, from a personal perspective, I can appreciate what Uncle Frank is saying. From a societal, global, and economic perspective, well, you can read my postings, and many published and respected political, cultural, and economic analyses of why Thailand and other developing countries have become the mecca for old men who want to be young again. That's my standpoint, and it's not going to change because you happen to be a nice guy.

Edited August 25, 2007 by sbk
deleted inflammatory posts in quotes removed

[sbk]

Thanks for the note of sanity Kat

Let's not get personal or nasty in this. Further such posts will be deleted and posters warned. Try to follow Kat's advice and keep this civil and a reasonable discussion of social trends in Thailand rather than personal attacks on other people's lives.

[sbk]

I was speaking as a moderator above, so DROP IT.

Further such posts rehashing this will not only be deleted but posters warned

[meom]

I don't have time to go in depth, so I'm just going to post a few things that I view as true here, without any qualifications:

I think the forum needs more bandwidth once you start posting in depth. Anyway continue.

[canadiangirl]

Canadiangirl, you are a cool chick, and I wish you the best. Please PM me when you come to BKK and I'd be glad to go to morlam clubs with you and anybody else. I'd also be willing to bet that most of these mean-spirited old and getting old men on this forum would be really nice and genuine guys if you met them in person. This internet anonymity is quite deceiving.

You're on for some morlam, Chinthee!

You're probably right about most people being nice and genuine guys outside of forum. I think sometimes the internet makes jerks of the best of us. It's a lot harder to be harsh, (and I include myself in this) with a real human being in front of you.

[zaza]

I am not sure what people mean when they say a 'failed' marriage.

A marriage may have only lasted a year but during that time be a complete success.

Other marriages can last a lifetime but be a complete failure.

Should the success of marriage be defined by its duration?

Some marriages also last for the kids raising(to avoid repeating loss of kids that might had happened in their homeland) or to provide the(financial-mental) wellbeing for the young kids. But people would think these marriages are happy & successful families cause they had stayed together without break ups.

You are right about that.

There is no criteria to measure the success or the failure of a marriage in any time or place; I guess.

Edited August 25, 2007 by zaza

[qwertz]

There's a simple arithmetic to apply here.

If two people can't rub along together and mutually enhance each other's lives, it's a marriage in name only and a complete and utter sham.

It's a matter of record that in most marriages one or both parties make concessions instead of contributions.

The longevity and success of such a relationship then depends entirely on how much tolerance one or both parties is prepared to extend.

Should this thin balance be upset - bang goes another marriage.

If anybody wants to ask me how I know, here's the answer in advance - I've been there - have you?

[ColPyat]

There's a simple arithmetic to apply here.

If two people can't rub along together and mutually enhance each other's lives, it's a marriage in name only and a complete and utter sham.

It's a matter of record that in most marriages one or both parties make concessions instead of contributions.

The longevity and success of such a relationship then depends entirely on how much tolerance one or both parties is prepared to extend.

Should this thin balance be upset - bang goes another marriage.

If anybody wants to ask me how I know, here's the answer in advance - I've been there - have you?

I am sorry, but that arithmetic is not so simple. We have the socio-economic, cultural and linguistic/communication factors here, and that complicates matters incredibly. We, who are in such relationships, should be very aware of that, on not just brush it away under "but we are in love, and anyone who questions certain aspects of these sort of relationships is a bigot".

If you are surrounded by intelligent and educated people who ask these uncomfortable questions that were voiced here in this thread - you don't do yourself any service by simply attacking them from your defensive walls. People aren't stupid, you know?

A broken up long term relationship? No i have never been there, and i hope i won't ever be in this situation. Neither would i want to live in a delusional relationship, in which i am blind to realities because it is uncomfortable facing them.

[pantarei]

old man with young chick = old man trying to be young again but failing miserably. Like the emperor with new clothes.

lonely woman with 4,017 posts (15 per day). Like a loser who needs to get a life.

[qwertz]

There's a simple arithmetic to apply here.

If two people can't rub along together and mutually enhance each other's lives, it's a marriage in name only and a complete and utter sham.

It's a matter of record that in most marriages one or both parties make concessions instead of contributions.

The longevity and success of such a relationship then depends entirely on how much tolerance one or both parties is prepared to extend.

Should this thin balance be upset - bang goes another marriage.

If anybody wants to ask me how I know, here's the answer in advance - I've been there - have you?

I am sorry, but that arithmetic is not so simple. We have the socio-economic, cultural and linguistic/communication factors here, and that complicates matters incredibly. We, who are in such relationships, should be very aware of that, on not just brush it away under "but we are in love, and anyone who questions certain aspects of these sort of relationships is a bigot".

If you are surrounded by intelligent and educated people who ask these uncomfortable questions that were voiced here in this thread - you don't do yourself any service by simply attacking them from your defensive walls. People aren't stupid, you know?

A broken up long term relationship? No i have never been there, and i hope i won't ever be in this situation. Neither would i want to live in a delusional relationship, in which i am blind to realities because it is uncomfortable facing them.

So sorry, Colypat, didn't mean to offend.

I was merely tossing in a little logic, you see.

I'm so happy you're happy; this only underlines my line #2 which you and yours seem to be at least broadly observing.

My post was for the benefit of the people who seem to lack your balanced and unequivocal philosophy.

[ratchabuild]

to the person who said i was the only person who made sense in 25 pages. thank you. i try to be honest and fair, and i think that is the key to succeeding in a different culture.

Siamsquare321 and Bangkokinsinhghapore are standing out side the school yard as the 17 year-old girls file out in their hundreds, Siamsquare321 nods towards a particularly attractive one and says to Bangkokinsinghapore

"Must have been a real looker in her day"

Dustin, from the sidelines says.............."Did I tell you I skydive?"

[ratchabuild]

Still bemused that sexual attraction is perceived to be the dominant (only?) reason for a couple to exist (married or not) by so many who post on here.

If that is your only motive for marriage the result will be misery,it matters not if you are twenty years mismatched or two days.

Also I am surprised that an underlying assumption exists that sexual desire and age are directly related.

Libido mismatch is not age related by some immutable law.

Some mismatched couples exist for the two week holiday,some for years,some are straight financial relationships,some are not.

To try and suggest all couples fit into one description is absurd and immature.

To maintain you cannot love someone 20 years different in age is pathetic and in my opinion demonstrates an immature understanding of human nature which is too bound up with physical appearance (which is fleeting).

If you maintain that you are disguted by same sex couples you are a homophobe,by inter-racial couples you are a rascist,by age ....you can say what you like.

Wether we are aware of it or not we are conditioned by our society to regard certain things as ok and some as not and that definition of ok will vary by society and by the years.

Current western views hold that 'love' in a relationship is everything and money does not matter.....clearly a result of living in a very wealthy society where people do not have a genuine need to worry about their existence.Turn back the clock 100 years,no welfare,healthcare etc and the wealth of the husband,can he afford a wife and family etc.was a major consideration,not his age.

Yes the majority of couples are within 5 years of each other...for the simple reason most potential mates in your social group will be of a similar age,but the mere fact that the majority fall into one group does not invalidate the choices made by others.

If you don't feel comfortable with an age mismatch then don't go that way,just don't assume that what is right/wrong for you must therefore be right/wrong for everyone else.

TV is a great place.On this thread young Thai women are being portrayed as the helpless victims of older wicked Farang men but on other threads they become cunning goldiggers out to fleece any gullible Farang who falls into their calculating clutches!

The real point is that what would be a statistically insignificant number of mis-matched age and socio-economic status couples back in falangland is turned, by all the middleaged men in LOS buying young flesh into a statistically significant number and on this board into perhaps the majority. Then the defenders of the mis-match try to rationalise into into some 'meeting of minds, love of the spheres, non verbal attraction, blend of experience and inexperience' Everything it is not. It's a statistical anomaly because its a perversion. It pretends that young fit female bodies like old male wrinklies, That the fact that all their friends are young and their past thai boyfriends were roughly their same age is somehow set aside when an old falang flashes his best store bought choppers at a young girl. Give it a name. Admit it for what it is. If you acknowledge that its a cash transaction with staged payments then you have a duty to ensure the young girl comes out of it better off and adequately rewarded for the sacrifice in being with a man much older who she does not in her heart love.

Allowing the self delusion that it is a 'romance' with all the usual rules of a falangland romance means the man has a licence to dump and vilefy the girl when she can pretend no longer. "She was a goldigger, thai pr*******ute, she only wanted me for my money", etc etc etc. Not every relationship with mis-matched on the face-of-it couples is like that. But reading between the lines of so many described relationships its easy to see that many are a sham. If you can't communicate and examine each others culture it's a sham. If the man has all the money and the girl the youth it's a sham. If the man is patronising its a sham, if you are hiding assets and making her sign pre nups its a sham. The girls for the most part are naive and trusting, they learn to be hard only because of the relentless lies and betrayals by the armies of sexpats who beseige them every day. Part of their world is the pretence, the 'girlfriend experience' that allows the sex pat to believe the the young,hot girl has fallen for his charm and vast knowledge of Aston villa/dallas cowboys/belgian beers./ model trains/ fill in your own blanks etc etc etc. Its a pretence and provided the client keeps providing the security he can continue to believe that his Thai Angel teerak loves and respects him with all her heart. They may even get married but please dont bring the fantasy to the boards and proclaim to the world that there s somehow this mysterious meeting of minds without language or communication by osmosis or that you really are her ideal partner,even the much quoted hollywood men with a younger model arent dumb enough to believe it wasn't bought and paid for like the humvee and the stretch limo

[ratchabuild]

As is my habit I am in bar playing pool with a load of girls one after the other until I find one to beat me. The night before they have all been with their boyfriends, all older, usually unattractive elderly or rough men. Usually pawed, french kissed etc etc. As

the men file past doing their shopping for a nights companion the girls because its still early, call out a desultory, "Hello hansum man" or "You come in bar" before turning to their isaan snack or if playing me their next shot. Suddenly there's a commotion and girls are everywhere, coming down ladders, out of the loo, out from behind the bar. I am nearly killed and certainly ignored in the rush.

Two good looking young Swedish guys are walking down the strip This time the girls really really put their hearts and souls into it and even the Swedes who are turning offers down left, right and centre have to laugh.

In the evening when the boyfriends turn up, the girls are back to their usual back stroking, sweet talking lies in the ears of the old falangs, but always with one eye on the street in case the guys they really dream of come back.

[ColPyat]

There's a simple arithmetic to apply here.

If two people can't rub along together and mutually enhance each other's lives, it's a marriage in name only and a complete and utter sham.

It's a matter of record that in most marriages one or both parties make concessions instead of contributions.

The longevity and success of such a relationship then depends entirely on how much tolerance one or both parties is prepared to extend.

Should this thin balance be upset - bang goes another marriage.

If anybody wants to ask me how I know, here's the answer in advance - I've been there - have you?

I am sorry, but that arithmetic is not so simple. We have the socio-economic, cultural and linguistic/communication factors here, and that complicates matters incredibly. We, who are in such relationships, should be very aware of that, on not just brush it away under "but we are in love, and anyone who questions certain aspects of these sort of relationships is a bigot".

If you are surrounded by intelligent and educated people who ask these uncomfortable questions that were voiced here in this thread - you don't do yourself any service by simply attacking them from your defensive walls. People aren't stupid, you know?

A broken up long term relationship? No i have never been there, and i hope i won't ever be in this situation. Neither would i want to live in a delusional relationship, in which i am blind to realities because it is uncomfortable facing them.

So sorry, Colypat, didn't mean to offend.

I was merely tossing in a little logic, you see.

I'm so happy you're happy; this only underlines my line #2 which you and yours seem to be at least broadly observing.

My post was for the benefit of the people who seem to lack your balanced and unequivocal philosophy.

Congratulating ourselves in the expat typical mutual appreciation societies is not a very satisfying discussion, and as long as you ignore the particular socio-economical and cultural factors in these specific relationships, we will not get any further here.

I know why you come here, and what it means to you - you did once start a thread about it, and you had a point there. I wish though you would be as honest in your self reflection in this debate here, when things get a bit uncomfortable. If it's too uncomfortable - than just get out of the debate - i am not here to make you feel bad about yourself. But these potshots are not exactly contributing to the quality of the discussion.

[siamamerican]

My major issue here is not what exists so much - because I don't think foreigners are the root cause of it - but rather with the pattern of denial that exists, and the accompanying condescension and derision of those with the courage to question and understand why they do exist.

The crux of the problem is that some posters are ashamed of themselves and use derision and condescension to fortify their ego. Coming to terms with who they are would contradict the lie they have sold to themselves, family, and friends. The sad reality is that the truth, in most cases, isn't that shameful.

You would think insecurities would be less obvious on an anonymous Internet forum. I'm much more secure in expressing my beliefs here, than in the real world.

[Dustoff]

You guys, Please STOP for a moment. I like all of you quoted above here (except for MikeVigo and Uncle Frank - I don't know them), but yet we are all different, and probably live our lives very differently. Although I need to get my life together and pull away from the forum again, I don't want to leave this thread in its current state.

For the record, I don't have a simplistic viewpoint based on the narrow duality of "good" or "bad", "oppressed" or "oppressor", "feminist" or "misogynist", "bigot" or "senior husband with young Thai wife." My own life hasn't been lived strictly along those lines, although those lines do exist. But, I know there is a lot that also exists in between. I have a far more complex view than solely looking at Western/Thai and old/young relationships, and most of you who know me will know that, although we may not agree on everything; I always see the individual and individual circumstances. But, I am a researcher, and researchers look at general trends and patterns, hypothesize, and substantiate. I think I've done that plenty during my years here at Thaivisa, and I don't have time to keep inventing the wheel. If you want to know what I mean, just read my posts (the ones that haven't been pulled anyway). I don't view Thai women as victims, and I don't think I've ever once said this, but I do look at their place in society as a whole, and how this position and cultural framework creates the conditions that I have discussed on various topics here.

I don't have time to go in depth, so I'm just going to post a few things that I view as true here, without any qualifications:

Canadian Girl is a very smart and sweet young woman. From my perspective as a woman in her 40s, she is very young, the way twenty-somethings generally are. We have all been and can remember, right? If not, we should.

ColyPat is a very intelligent man who knows a lot about Thai culture, who is honest, and is able to discuss social issues without tempering them for his own comfort. I have a lot of respect for him.

Lannarebirth is a very balanced and nice man on this forum. He is an example of someone whose life and outlook on this thread is different from mine, but whom I respect nonetheless.

Dustoff seems like an attractive and vibrant older man, judging from his avatar and postings. I don't doubt that he is not a good person, but I don't come on these threads to evaluate whether you are a good or bad person, but rather to discuss the social trends in Thailand as I see them happening around me. That doesn't make me a bigot, that makes me a realist.

I don't view Thai women or Thai people as victims. I think there is a lot of beauty there, and a lot of pain and social problems, but NOT the same as everywhere. If we keep saying everything is the same, we never really learn how they are different. One thing I know for sure, is that there are plenty of variables on the victim theme, especially in Thailand. There is also a pattern of hatred and derogatory statements aimed at Western women on forums related to Thailand.

There are a lot of people with whom I have found friendship, respect, and support in Thailand. Many were farang women, some where Thai, and - are you ready for this - some were farang men with Thai wives/girlfriends. My major issue here is not what exists so much - because I don't think foreigners are the root cause of it - but rather with the pattern of denial that exists, and the accompanying condescension and derision of those with the courage to question and understand why they do exist.

In terms of Uncle Frank and Mike Vigo above, again, from a personal perspective, I can appreciate what Uncle Frank is saying. From a societal, global, and economic perspective, well, you can read my postings, and many published and respected political, cultural, and economic analyses of why Thailand and other developing countries have become the mecca for old men who want to be young again. That's my standpoint, and it's not going to change because you happen to be a nice guy.

An excellent post, Kat and I agree with most of what you said.

I also agree that the OP started this thread off on a bad foot and of course it drew many of the kind of people who are either involved in, or regularly witnessing that kind of behavior.

For myself, I am not a bar person and never have been so I don't see this 'seamy side of life' on a daily basis. This is not to say that I am unaware of it as I have been coming to Thailand regularly for 40+ years and now live here permanently but that scene is not where I choose to spend my time, unlike many posters here do by their own admission. Nor do a high percentage of other older expats. I am a lifetime member of the hugely popular Chiang Mai Expats Club and of the hundreds of people I know and have met there, while some have both Thai and farang wives/girlfriends who are younger than themselves, I don't see many parading around with bargirls nor think most spend much of their time in bars; I also do not think they would appreciate someone standing up in a meeting and voicing a tirade against the expat bar-bums and suggesting that we are mostly of that sort. I know, I know, I read your disclaimer.

I was actually in a bar recently to attend the CM ThaiVisa party which drew well over a hundred expats and my observation was the same. The majority seemed to be of a decent sort and were far from the kind I would assume were here to take advantage of Thai women nor disrespect Thailand in any way.

On the rare occasion that I do get out to a 'girlie-bar' or notice them on nighttime excursions into towns here, I feel no need to go on a crusade and judge whatever is going on, especially since much of it appears to be a cooperative endeavor by consenting adults, and I move on with my life.

However, for anyone to suggest that I condone any kind of socioeconomic power imbalances among people is ridiculous as anyone can see if they read my posts. Those who have taken offense by my use of the word bigotry are perhaps being a bit paranoid; it was not meant as a judgment but an observation. Bigotry is simply defined as intolerance of others who differ and we have certainly seen plenty of that in this thread. When I see expats being painted with the same brush as sexpats or posts that paint Thai women as merely unintelligent pawns, I see this as the very definition of bigotry and prejudice.

But then flamers are a fact of life on the internet and I think we just have to expect it. Lannarebirth's post was probably the most rational and reasonabe post in this entire thread, and the person who vehemently responded, in my opinion, displayed the classic example of flaming. I find this offensive and am a bit surprised that the moderators have not been more responsive.

The seamy side of life can be found in any major city in the world and after finding myself unfortunately in the middle of same in LA, NY, and many other 'civilized' cities around the world, I find it hard to imagine that it is much worse in developing countries.

I think this discussion is an important one but I would hope that we can have reasonable discussions without going at one another tooth and nail as we likely agree on many of the points being made. But then you are probably right, that I am more of a cockeyed idealist than a realist. Our realities are just different..

[meemiathai]

Nice and clear.

[WaiWai]

As is my habit I am in bar playing pool with a load of girls one after the other until I find one to beat me. The night before they have all been with their boyfriends, all older, usually unattractive elderly or rough men. Usually pawed, french kissed etc etc. As

the men file past doing their shopping for a nights companion the girls because its still early, call out a desultory, "Hello hansum man" or "You come in bar" before turning to their isaan snack or if playing me their next shot. Suddenly there's a commotion and girls are everywhere, coming down ladders, out of the loo, out from behind the bar. I am nearly killed and certainly ignored in the rush.

Two good looking young Swedish guys are walking down the strip This time the girls really really put their hearts and souls into it and even the Swedes who are turning offers down left, right and centre have to laugh.

In the evening when the boyfriends turn up, the girls are back to their usual back stroking, sweet talking lies in the ears of the old falangs, but always with one eye on the street in case the guys they really dream of come back.

Good GRIEF ! Don'tya know you're not supposed to SAY this ??

[Dustoff]

As is my habit I am in bar playing pool with a load of girls one after the other until I find one to beat me...

Hmm, supply your own whips and handcuffs like your average 'nice guy' farang, do you?