Shame Shame Shame

[AlbertTatlockDeceased]

How could any self respecting person have voted "YES" to the referendum?

They have  ( for whatever their reasons) given the go ahead for the end of democracy, the end of free speech, and the end of Thailand as a world player...a sad day....to vote yes has given the military a vote of confidence.. in other words...the next time a majority vote for a political paty...if the military and the beaurocrats decide it is not to their liking..then out they go... on the end of a gun barrel.

Glad to see the Northeast voted with theit concience, anhd as for that ridiculous post earlier, as to why the north voted against.....what planet do you live on?

To describe them as uneducated???? Any Thahi that voted yes should be ashamed of what they have done...but...I respect their choice, and ...well at the end of the day, they are entiteld to their vote after all it is democratic..no?.

It was interesting to see the third category..where people returned their vote papers to the registrars....seemed to spook them a bit.

The strange thing was of my friends here who voted (70%NO - 30% YES) neither side could put forth a reason why they voted the way they did, only a minority used the vote as a stand againsat the military.

Never mind, we will soon be arm in arm with Burma

[lazeeboy]

How could any self respecting person have voted "YES" to the referendum?

They have ( for whatever their reasons) given the go ahead for the end of democracy, the end of free speech, and the end of Thailand as a world player...a sad day....to vote yes has given the military a vote of confidence.. in other words...the next time a majority vote for a political paty...if the military and the beaurocrats decide it is not to their liking..then out they go... on the end of a gun barrel.

Glad to see the Northeast voted with theit concience, anhd as for that ridiculous post earlier, as to why the north voted against.....what planet do you live on?

To describe them as uneducated???? Any Thahi that voted yes should be ashamed of what they have done...but...I respect their choice, and ...well at the end of the day, they are entiteld to their vote after all it is democratic..no?.

It was interesting to see the third category..where people returned their vote papers to the registrars....seemed to spook them a bit.

The strange thing was of my friends here who voted (70%NO - 30% YES) neither side could put forth a reason why they voted the way they did, only a minority used the vote as a stand againsat the military.

Never mind, we will soon be arm in arm with Burma

i dont think 90% of the thai's realise what they are doing half the time ,for most it was a days holiday....

[jumnien]

I basically agree with much of what you have to say. I do object to your use of the term "vote" as it refers to the last "election". Usually the word vote is used to depict a choice between real options. Not just to rubberstamp the military's new constitution or to let the military pick an old one and rewrite it. I mean really, this wasn't a vote at all.

[britmaveric]

Could have been rigged - most elections are bit dodgey in Thailand.

[ColPyat]

How could any self respecting person have voted "YES" to the referendum?

They have ( for whatever their reasons) given the go ahead for the end of democracy, the end of free speech, and the end of Thailand as a world player...a sad day....to vote yes has given the military a vote of confidence.. in other words...the next time a majority vote for a political paty...if the military and the beaurocrats decide it is not to their liking..then out they go... on the end of a gun barrel.

Glad to see the Northeast voted with theit concience, anhd as for that ridiculous post earlier, as to why the north voted against.....what planet do you live on?

To describe them as uneducated???? Any Thahi that voted yes should be ashamed of what they have done...but...I respect their choice, and ...well at the end of the day, they are entiteld to their vote after all it is democratic..no?.

It was interesting to see the third category..where people returned their vote papers to the registrars....seemed to spook them a bit.

The strange thing was of my friends here who voted (70%NO - 30% YES) neither side could put forth a reason why they voted the way they did, only a minority used the vote as a stand againsat the military.

Never mind, we will soon be arm in arm with Burma

Don't be too depressed.

I terms of the long ongoing struggle for democracy this was actually not a bad result at all, given the harassment of no vote campaigners.

In real terms - if you count in the doubtlessly many "Yes" votes that were hidden "No" votes, mainly because they wanted elections fast and not because they agreed with the military or the constitution - this was a rather solid stand against the military and the elite.

Rome wasn't built in a day - and the result of this referendum is an as strong position as was possible under the conditions, and a very strong platform for the future.

[draggons]

Is it our place, as guests in this country, to say "how could any self respecting person have voted yes"

It's their country and their choice. I asked the missus which way she voted and was told never mind. Her choice to vote whatever way she feels is right not ours.

[Tywais]

Duplicate topic merged.

[Jingthing]

Democracy is overrated, all around.

Look who it has given us lately in different countries around the world, including Thailand.

Bush's (a good example) evangelical crusade to bring democracy to the world no matter what the consequences has now been totally discredited. Imagine real democracy across the middle east. Very scary, because they would vote for militant fundamentalists. There are very few rational people who really want a real democracy in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, or Pakistan.

Perhaps Thailand isn't ready for it yet either. Perhaps they need more focus on education and critical thinking before the populace is ready. In the US, a very small percentage of people actually vote in elections, so you could argue the US isn't ready either.

OK, I don't really know a better form of government. But seeing pure democracy as a panacea for any country is kind of naive.

Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.

Sir Winston Churchill

Edited August 21, 2007 by Jingthing

[lannarebirth]

The few people I met who voted no, said that they believed by doing so, that the debts they racked up in prior years might be forgiven. The people I know who voted yes, are all pro democracy, but say, thusfar democracy has only brought criminals to power through manipulation of ignorant voters, particualrly in the north and northeast. When they say that they don't say it in a condescending way, just as stating a fact. They recognize that not one in a thousand actually read the charter and it was pro Thaksin, or whatever their puyai told them, vote. They believe the charter is the best way to move forward.

[lannarebirth]

Democracy is overrated, all around.

I agree with this, but it is a necessary stop on the journey.

[jumnien]

My wife's father was a local politician for 20 years and definitely not a Thaksin or TRT fan. The whole family voted no to the military! Others in the community voted yes to get rid of the military quicker (wildly optimistic).

[Jingthing]

They were both bad choices, so I don't think those who voted yes, no, or nil have anything to be ashamed about.

[dave111223]

I asked the missus which way she voted and was told never mind. Her choice to vote whatever way she feels is right not ours.

Sounds like you have a healthy relationship.

The only reasons I heard for people voting Yes was "If we don't vote 'Yes' we won't have any elections".

My wife voted No, then came home and picked up the constitution booklet and started reading it (for the first time), got about half a page in and said "Actually they seem kind of nice", then put the booklet down (probably never to be picked up again).

I'm guessing this is how much a lot of Thais care about these things.

Edited August 21, 2007 by dave111223

[samran]

How could any self respecting person have voted "YES" to the referendum?

They have  ( for whatever their reasons) given the go ahead for the end of democracy, the end of free speech, and the end of Thailand as a world player...a sad day....to vote yes has given the military a vote of confidence.. in other words...the next time a majority vote for a political paty...if the military and the beaurocrats decide it is not to their liking..then out they go... on the end of a gun barrel.

Glad to see the Northeast voted with theit concience, anhd as for that ridiculous post earlier, as to why the north voted against.....what planet do you live on?

To describe them as uneducated???? Any Thahi that voted yes should be ashamed of what they have done...but...I respect their choice, and ...well at the end of the day, they are entiteld to their vote after all it is democratic..no?.

It was interesting to see the third category..where people returned their vote papers to the registrars....seemed to spook them a bit.

The strange thing was of my friends here who voted (70%NO - 30% YES) neither side could put forth a reason why they voted the way they did, only a minority used the vote as a stand againsat the military.

Never mind, we will soon be arm in arm with Burma

I would have voted for it if I had gotten around to it. Too busy with family stuff and my Ampur is a 50 min drive across town when traffic is good.

As much as I'm a bit partial to the fairly benevolent dictatorship that we've had for the past year (as compared with previous governments, of all stripes) it couldn't last much longer without things going pear shaped and power really going to their heads (in a serious way). The promised an election, and they've going to give us one.

So what if the constitutuion isn't a 'perfect' document? We had one of them, remember? It was in the form of the 1997 constitution and the last bloke spent all his time trying to undermine it. In my book, freedom of speech and freedom to demonstrate is much better than it ever was under the last government where if you weren't a sycophant, you didn't get listened to. Even Thaskin's supporters: his cronies, rent-a-crowds of hillbilly bumpkins and thugs, got a better run under this mob than any now vanished muslim defense lawyer got under Thaksin.

No auditor generals were hounded from office and the revenue department went back to doing what it (really and cleanly) did well - collect taxes.

But I digress.

To put too much of an emphasis on a document, I believe (in a totally self respecting manner, mind you), is a naieve goal if you don't first expect the politicians who run the show to believe in the same ideals. But, while Thai polticians are pretty much a useless bunch, as I alluded to before, I'll take a return to democratic Thai politics as usual (with a twist of Khaki) - which is preferable to any straight out junta (no matter how passive for the moment). And so did most Thai's I believe. They'd rather have that, that the 2.5 odd years of paralysis that we've had.

[Jingthing]

My impression is that most Thais, while not content with poverty per se (as most are poor), are relatively content with being ruled by a power elite, as long as that elite is seen to be at least marginally benevolent. If this wasn't a case, where is the revolution? I think the most remarkable thing about the troubles the last few years is the tiny amount of protest and violence (if you exclude the separatist movement in South Thailand). I don't see or feel a deep hunger for democratic people power here.

Edited August 21, 2007 by Jingthing

[buffcoat]

It is their country and their choice,Thaksin was so blatantly corrupt that it takes my breath away that anyone can now regard him in a positive light.

The mi

[sriracha john]

oh well, as long as a separate thread is going to continue to run outside the main thread, for whatever reason....

Threads merged to provide continuity of topic.

Duplicate topic merged.

Is it possible to merge this yet again into the main thread as was done with the other same topic threads that got merged

into it?

Proposed Constitution Clears Referendum With Comfortable Margin

[mrtoad]

It will make no difference anyway. The same old scoundrels are still around, and will be back as soon as this present Junta recinds it's power even if they use proxies. I'd say, it's all a load of show anyway, as those that pull the strings have never been away, but this was their way of trying to show that the ruling elite is in touch with the people.

This from what I can see is a fight between the new rich (Thaksin and his allies) and the old rich. Maybe, I have simplified it too much, but I can't see much change for the average Thai.

The constitution in whatever form is only as good as the people who are entrusted to uphold it's values and spirit, and hopefully this time things might be different, but as in all power struggles it's highly unlikely.

[lannarebirth]

I have never seen anything great happen, that involved millions of people, where the passage of time wasn't one of the most important elements for successs.

[mark100]

How could any self respecting person have voted "YES" to the referendum?

They have ( for whatever their reasons) given the go ahead for the end of democracy, the end of free speech, and the end of Thailand as a world player...a sad day....to vote yes has given the military a vote of confidence.. in other words...the next time a majority vote for a political paty...if the military and the beaurocrats decide it is not to their liking..then out they go... on the end of a gun barrel.

Glad to see the Northeast voted with theit concience, anhd as for that ridiculous post earlier, as to why the north voted against.....what planet do you live on?

To describe them as uneducated???? Any Thahi that voted yes should be ashamed of what they have done...but...I respect their choice, and ...well at the end of the day, they are entiteld to their vote after all it is democratic..no?.

It was interesting to see the third category..where people returned their vote papers to the registrars....seemed to spook them a bit.

The strange thing was of my friends here who voted (70%NO - 30% YES) neither side could put forth a reason why they voted the way they did, only a minority used the vote as a stand againsat the military.

Never mind, we will soon be arm in arm with Burma

This is very much a catch 22 question for the thai people, vote yes and have Decemeber elections, vote no and let the military junta choose their own consisitution and make amendments to it without any consultation with the thai people, either way the army cement their hold on power.

[ajarnmark]

Could have been rigged - most elections are bit dodgey in Thailand.

or for that matter in USA too

[jaiyenjohn]

Every time I want to criticize the results of an election of another country I have to remember that MY country elected George W. Bush... TWICE!

Now I'm forced to stare into the ugly face of hypocrisy when I want to comment on the political machinations of both Taksin and the Military Govt.

Curse you GWB for undermining my righteous indignation!

[AlbertTatlockDeceased]

Quote Buffcoat ="It is their country and their choice,Thaksin was so blatantly corrupt that it takes my breath away that anyone can now regard him in a positive light.

The mi"

You seem to be in a catch 22 yourself with this answer - Yes it is their country and their choice, however, what you fail to grasp is that Thaksin WAS THEIR CHOICE TOO until booted out by the military, bit of a conundrum that one!

Did ANYONE read the new constitution???? Was it possible, the way in which it was written was pretty incomprehensible.

Certainly looking at the results from the North and Northeast, they pretty much voted with their feet.

Let's see what the election holds, what CHOICES there I wonder!

[sriracha john]

Certainly looking at the results from the North and Northeast, they pretty much voted with their feet.

A mod really should still merge this thread into the main thread, but... anyway,

the results from the North show that it was approved by them:

[Naam]

MY country elected George W. Bush... TWICE!

sh*t happens

[Jimjim]

It's not your fight, OP. Thailand will never be Burma no matter how much you say it.

Also, you're delusional. Was Thaksin voted in? Yes, because he bought votes in rural areas. Not really democracy, is it?

Edited August 22, 2007 by Jimjim

[meadish_sweetball]

Quote Buffcoat ="It is their country and their choice,Thaksin was so blatantly corrupt that it takes my breath away that anyone can now regard him in a positive light.

The mi"

You seem to be in a catch 22 yourself with this answer - Yes it is their country and their choice, however, what you fail to grasp is that Thaksin WAS THEIR CHOICE TOO until booted out by the military, bit of a conundrum that one!

Did ANYONE read the new constitution???? Was it possible, the way in which it was written was pretty incomprehensible.

Certainly looking at the results from the North and Northeast, they pretty much voted with their feet.

Let's see what the election holds, what CHOICES there I wonder!

Wifey read it - she understood what it said as well - obviously on a literal level - analyzing its possible effects is something completely different. Still she does not have any advanced education apart from a minor college degree. I read about 10% and found the language in itself easy enough to understand, apart from the special terms used for different organs and functions in government which I had to look up and ask about. I've read far more complicated texts in Thai. Your average Thai Rath rag is far more difficult to grasp.

Obviously, a lot of people could not be bothered to read the constitution so they would have to make up their minds based on gut feeling. As most people do... and your wallet is often surprisingly close to your gut.

[thai_narak]

How could any self respecting person have voted "YES" to the referendum?

They have  ( for whatever their reasons) given the go ahead for the end of democracy, the end of free speech, and the end of Thailand as a world player...a sad day....to vote yes has given the military a vote of confidence.. in other words...the next time a majority vote for a political paty...if the military and the beaurocrats decide it is not to their liking..then out they go... on the end of a gun barrel.

Glad to see the Northeast voted with theit concience, anhd as for that ridiculous post earlier, as to why the north voted against.....what planet do you live on?

To describe them as uneducated???? Any Thahi that voted yes should be ashamed of what they have done...but...I respect their choice, and ...well at the end of the day, they are entiteld to their vote after all it is democratic..no?.

It was interesting to see the third category..where people returned their vote papers to the registrars....seemed to spook them a bit.

The strange thing was of my friends here who voted (70%NO - 30% YES) neither side could put forth a reason why they voted the way they did, only a minority used the vote as a stand againsat the military.

Never mind, we will soon be arm in arm with Burma

i posted that ridiculous post...

why they voted "yes"? because voting "no" for them will be of TRT advantage. voting "no" is like voting for TRT for many of them.

is voting "yes" is like supporting dictatorship as TRT claimed? i don't think so... voting "yes" is giving more power to the people.

uneducated? education is not only going to school. you may have master degree and be uneducated in other things as many of the posters here acting uneducated. lack of variation in the votes in NE seems to me that they were just told to vote "no". these are the same people who get paid and sit in the rally in sanam luang. there is also an on-going investigation about vote buying in NE.

IMHO, as other poster have said, the plebecite is not really about the constitution but just to go-on to the next general election so that the country can move forward. forget thaksin, forget the TRT, forget the CNS, forget the democrats, do you think voting "no" would have been better off?

well, here are just some of the good points in the new constitution and why the "yes" vote.

- The public can directly file petitions to the Constitutional Court.

- Local communities can reach a referendum that binds the government to honour their referendums.

- All international agreements like free trade agreements must win public supports.

this is power to the public. i'm not a lawyer so i will end my rant here.

Edited August 22, 2007 by thai_narak

[AlbertTatlockDeceased]

How could any self respecting person have voted "YES" to the referendum?

They have  ( for whatever their reasons) given the go ahead for the end of democracy, the end of free speech, and the end of Thailand as a world player...a sad day....to vote yes has given the military a vote of confidence.. in other words...the next time a majority vote for a political paty...if the military and the beaurocrats decide it is not to their liking..then out they go... on the end of a gun barrel.

Glad to see the Northeast voted with theit concience, anhd as for that ridiculous post earlier, as to why the north voted against.....what planet do you live on?

To describe them as uneducated???? Any Thahi that voted yes should be ashamed of what they have done...but...I respect their choice, and ...well at the end of the day, they are entiteld to their vote after all it is democratic..no?.

It was interesting to see the third category..where people returned their vote papers to the registrars....seemed to spook them a bit.

The strange thing was of my friends here who voted (70%NO - 30% YES) neither side could put forth a reason why they voted the way they did, only a minority used the vote as a stand againsat the military.

Never mind, we will soon be arm in arm with Burma

i posted that ridiculous post...

why they voted "yes"? because voting "no" for them will be of TRT advantage. voting "no" is like voting for TRT for many of them.

is voting "yes" is like supporting dictatorship as TRT claimed? i don't think so... voting "yes" is giving more power to the people.

uneducated? education is not only going to school. you may have master degree and be uneducated in other things as many of the posters here acting uneducated. lack of variation in the votes in NE seems to me that they were just told to vote "no". these are the same people who get paid and sit in the rally in sanam luang. there is also an on-going investigation about vote buying in NE.

IMHO, as other poster have said, the plebecite is not really about the constitution but just to go-on to the next general election so that the country can move forward. forget thaksin, forget the TRT, forget the CNS, forget the democrats, do you think voting "no" would have been better off?

well, here are just some of the good points in the new constitution and why the "yes" vote.

- The public can directly file petitions to the Constitutional Court.

- Local communities can reach a referendum that binds the government to honour their referendums.

- All international agreements like free trade agreements must win public supports.

this is power to the public. i'm not a lawyer so i will end my rant here.

ThaiNarak

I respect your views but More power to the people...I think not! The power will be with the unelected/undemocratic Senate and judges-the government will be a weak and coerced coalition - indicisive bought and sold as with weak governments before "I'll vote with you if you pay me"...Nothing will gt done.

The army will have the final say and veto on anything they disapprove. Voting Yes is a TRT no vote???? why shouldn't it be? They voted for TRT previously, and TRT were thrown out by this mob..what do you expect? The majority voters voted for TRT..the army nulled their vote.. the NO vote should have been the only vote on principal alone!

You talk about the people at Sanam Luang -don't recall seeing anywhere like near "millions" of people camped out there...where did the no voters sleep? The Sanam Luang was just propaganda and rabble rousing..like the Caravan of the "nothing better to do for a few days"

You talk about the next election...what choices there... the biggest most popular party kicked out, and a bunch of no brainers left..some choice I must say...never mind, the army will take care of any indicisions, via the "unelected" senate.

On the good points " The people can directly file a petition to the constitutional court..." what to have it vetoed or be shot?

Your following two points have the same response.

Apologies for not quoting directly...but my machine hangs.

Sunrise 07 I agree the people have been conned into believing a yes vote will get the ball rolling..how wrong they are!

I still would respect the vote not the reasons behind it..or should that be the other way around??

Jingthing: Yes Vote mmmm...reasons against this in the original post.

No Vote = as above.

But not to vote = a bigger disgrace than voting yes, this truly saddens me why someone, given the opportunity would abstain...never could understand this, surely everyone must have an oppinion or at least need a couple of hundred baht.

Samran: You couldn't spend 50 minutes of one day on a holiday day to make a decision as to where your country went? AMAZING THAILAND! Hope we don't see posts from you in a years time complaining about the shit you country is in!

Again - whilst far from being Mother Theresa, Thaksin was "Elected" this is the whole point!!!

Jingthing "Ruled by dictatorship" I know what you mean by this too, I am starting to believe this - it is as if they NEED to be governed this way...is there any hope?

Mr. Toad -I know exactly what you mean, but god, please don't put any more apathy out here there is enough in Thailand to upset the World LOL!

AjarnMark

Thank you for your words of wisdom I take it you are an English teacher here?

Jayenjohn-LOL You got the nail on the proverbial head - GWB has done for democracy what Ian Brady did for Childcare!!

Jimjim: Correct - Thailand will never be Burma - Burma is a smaller country to the east and north - however, the governments are going in a very similar direction - Imagine Thaksin under house arrest for 10 years?

He actually gave something to the poor - yes a little - but more than the rest previously. He was NOT BOUGHT here, where I stay, he is looked on as a GOD, unlike Abhisit who is looked on as a frying pan to cook some eggs!

Meadishsweetball - I won't argue as my Thai is not that fantastic - but it looked a little like Rupert the bear meets the Prudential insurance disclaimer form to me!

Let's see what brews...it should be interesting either way, tin hats and bullet proof undies may be order of the day.

And did someone acuse me of being delusional.....where are my New Clothes!

[MungoGubbins]

Hello, this is my 1st post here and I seem to be steaming straight in to the political side of things, but as a heartbroken (now ex) Man City fan, Thai politics has been on my mind rather a lot recently.

I have a great deal of sympathy for the views expressed by Thai_narak. My wife, my in-laws and vitually all of my work colleagues made the effort to go out and vote Yes. Not because they are wildly enthusiastic about all aspects of an admitedly flawed constitution; but because they all want to move on from the current political crisis. The crisis could only be exacurbated by a return to a Thaksinocracy elective dictatorship and the new constitutions restrictions on Media ownership/interference and ownership of business assets by politicians can only help to protect us from that.

My friends and family are convinced that the constitution will be ammended at a later date by party political consensus, and that the current fudge is sufficient to calm things down and acheive a relative 'normality' in the short term.

I don't see the future of Thailand as being bleak or undemocratic at all. In my opinion the good things to come out of the Thaksin era, and subsequent crisis, are that poverty reduction is now a major policy concern for all Thai politicians, and, that Thaksin has helped inadvertantly to introduce many Thais to international concepts of human rights as they see the revulsion his crimes have caused around the world. A constitution which evolves by amendment over the coming years, (with less poverty and better educated population) should prove to be more stable than any previously.

Edited August 22, 2007 by MungoGubbins