Farangs And Falangs

[qwertz]

I wonder if Steven King taps into forums like this for his ideas.

[OxfordWill]

are you thick ? can you read and write thai ? fa®(l)ang is a thai word, written in thai script and pronounced based on the thai consonant and vowel rules.

Whether the 2nd consonant has more of an "r" or an "l" sound is subject to many different reasons.

learn thai properly, travel all over the country and you will here all sorts of this words pronounced differently based on region,social-demographic of people speaking etc.....

Couldn't agree more..

If you are going to insult somebody at least have the decency to use your own flames rather than someone else's.

I wonder if yourself and kikaha would be so quick asking strangers 'are you thick?' if it were face to face

Oh I know this one.. I say "yes", you say "come on then", then I say "bring it on", then you say "anytime punk" then everyone laughs at us.

Can we skip today?

[meadish_sweetball]

I wonder if Steven King taps into forums like this for his ideas.

I doubt most successful people spend a lot of time on web forums. It certainly hasn't helped my career any.

[Richard W]

Well here it may just have something to do with little ole'Laos. Since everyone here says falang . . . since it's spelt that way (I would show you but TV doesn't seem to support Lao script)

Curiously, the only spelling I could find in Becker's dictionary is ຟຣັງ! Which is the correct spelling - ຟລັງor ຟະລັງ? (In case it doesn't display properly on your computer, Becker's instance has lo lot, the equivalent of Thai ro ruea, and other two have lo ling, with and without sala a.)

[Richard W]

Even our own word foreigner is a corruption of the same.

Highly unlikely. The oldest meanings of foreign in English is 'out of doors'! It comes from Old French forain, forein from Latin foras, foris 'outdoors'.

So we are taking a Thai word, and assuming that they (Thais) are in fact mispronouncing it because our own spelling we've established for the word differs from how Thais have been speaking it for 300 or so years?

But not all Thais use /l/. Long ago, SBK pointed out that the Southern Thai form tends to be rang.

I say 'falang'. I know 'farang' is the proper pronunciation. I hang out with Thai people who say it the same way I do. I spell it as falang because it's the phonetic translation, like every other word.

And that is a true and reputable reason.

Why is Sukhumvit spelled with a v, when it's clearly a w sound?

Pronunciations vacillate - some accounts report a variation between /w/ and /v/ in Siamese. Further, the graphic system of transliteration - favoured, if not promulgated, by King Vajiravudh, uses 'v', as in the transliteration of Sanskrit, or for that matter, the writing of Latin.

I learnt only recently that there's a Lanna alphabet. Does it have a letter for the "r" sound ?

Yes - any script suitable for writing Pali needs a letter for the 'r' sound. However, in native words this letter, for which I fought hard to get the name LANNA LETTER RA adopted in Unicode, is pronounced /h/. New letters were added for this /h/ sound - for it needs a low letter. Most regions adopted a modification of the old /h/ (i.e. a modification of the letter corresponding to ห), but in Laos they adopted a modification of the 'r' letter, as in the Lao script (ຮ from ຣ). Thus in Northern Thai the word [M]hao 'we' may be written with either LANNA LETTER RA or LANNA LETTER LOW HA. Note that these names are still under preliminary ballot.

[qwertz]

Thanks for the Thai lesson, RW, I mean that sincerely.

BTW, re your research: Highly unlikely. The oldest meanings of foreign in English is 'out of doors'! It comes from Old French forain, forein from Latin foras, foris 'outdoors'.

You may well be right but the word changed in meaning over time as words do and came to mean outsider until it was ousted by "estranger".

The S was later dropped and modified with an E acute but it lives on in the English word "stranger"

The same happened in Spanish when they adopted "estranjero" but they kept the word "afuera" for "outside"

BTW, a question for Bendix: my name is Roy. Why do Thais always call me Loy?

Edited August 24, 2007 by qwertz

[luckyluke]

Intelesting thlead,thank you mistel Bend X ( )

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Thank you for your apology bendix, it really wasn't necessary though.

[mikethevigoman]

Very true, i hear farung also ! i makes me cringe when i hear these guys talking to them like the cowboys to the indians in the old movies, " we come bring whisky give you for rifle " ,makes me wonder who is the uneducated one in the conversation ,.

[mikethevigoman]

my thai gf and thai female friends all have no problem pronouncing farang with the r correctly but seem to keep calling me rom instead of rob.my former japanese gf and japanese female friends in hawaii had a real problem with r's and l's though and seemed to keep calling me lob instead of rob.don't care as long as they call me for dinner.

You are lucky! the thai pronounciation of michael seems to be be "mycun ! " as in mycun jackson

[calibanjr.]

I always thought "farang" was a derivative of ferengi. From wikipedia:

The name "Ferengi" is an Arabic name for European traders, or for Westerners in general. Both the Arabic word and the name are similarly pronounced /fɛˈrɪŋɡi/ (IPA). The name is likely derived from the Arabic word faranj or ifranj, "Franks", or possibly the Persian word farangi, meaning "foreigner". In Ethiopia, ferenj or ferenji has the same meaning. The Greeks used Farang or farangi to refer to western Europeans, especially from Catalonia. It has the connotations of an ethnic slur against Europeans, and was used as a partially derogatory term in India to denote the British, especially by those resisting British rule. However the word is often used in an affectionate way.

And FAR more import information on your fellow farang (again Wiki):

The Ferengi originate from the planet Ferenginar, in the center of the Ferengi Alliance located in the Alpha Quadrant. Precisely what the Ferengi Alliance consisted of was never revealed; it may simply encompass Ferenginar and any uninhabited planets that the Ferengi have colonized, since there was little indication that the Ferengi government exercised authority over any species other than its own.

Ferengi culture is based entirely on commerce, and the 285 Rules of Acquisition comprise the sacred code on which all of Ferengi society is based. They were first written down by Gint, the first Grand Nagus, who leads the Ferengi Alliance. The title "Rules of Acquisition" was chosen as a clever marketing ploy (since the rules are merely guidelines) and Gint numbered his first rule as #162, in order to create a demand for the other 161 Rules that had not yet been created.

A trio of Ferengi

A trio of Ferengi

Ferengi culture is so devoted to unregulated capitalism that concepts such as labor unions, sick leave, vacations, or paid overtime for workers are considered abhorrent, because they would interfere with exploitation of workers. In addition to the Rules, the Ferengi also recognize the five Stages of Acquisition: infatuation, justification, appropriation, obsession, and resale.

Edited August 25, 2007 by calibanjr.

[garro]

The 'Royal Thai General System of Transcription' is the one adopted by the Thai people to transcribe their language into roman script. In this ร is written as r, (except when there is a double รร). This systen has not been forced on them by any outside foreign source, that I am aware of. The purpose of using one transliteration system is to avoid confusion.

While this system may not be favored by many of the farang who post on TV perhaps it should be accepted as it is the one used by the Thai government. Alternatively, the farang malcontents could petition the Thai government to change their chosen system. It seems a wate of time to me though as ล already represents the l sound beautifully and follows the exact tone rules. I am sorry if this post makes me seem a bit thick bit it makes sense to me.

Edited August 25, 2007 by garro

[technocracy]

Well here it may just have something to do with little ole'Laos. Since everyone here says falang . . . since it's spelt that way (I would show you but TV doesn't seem to support Lao script)

Curiously, the only spelling I could find in Becker's dictionary is ຟຣັງ! Which is the correct spelling - ຟລັງor ຟະລັງ? (In case it doesn't display properly on your computer, Becker's instance has lo lot, the equivalent of Thai ro ruea, and other two have lo ling, with and without sala a.)

First question is how did you get the Lao script work!! Although my Lao keyboard is in the UK waiting be shipped . . . anyway ຟຣັງ is correct (one of the few things in Beckers dictionary - much entertainment has been caused with me learning new words from it then discovering they are Issan or Thai not Lao!)

ຟ - faa

ຣັງ - lang

This comes back to the changing the ຣ sound from raa to laa - hence as I said before why I think falang probably eminates from the Lao language as however many years ago it was, the Lao language dropped the /r/ sound in preference to an /l/ sound. Year ago it would of been farang but nowadays it's 100% falang.

As for the ຣ sound I think it could of been re-introduced since the last wall chart I bought for the Lao sounds it is now included (previous ones it wasn't shown - my wife also commented on it being on there also) . . . obviously since words such as falang still use it.

The word itself is also a bit of a hash since it breaks the cardinal rule of not having a vowel and constant grouping just ຟ.

Edited August 25, 2007 by technocracy

[garro]

Technocracy, are you using a Mac?

If so I have found that firefox allows me to print in Thai script on this site. Maybe it will do the same for lao script?

Because all I see is ????

[nidge]

Technocracy, are you using a Mac?

If so I have found that firefox allows me to print in Thai script on this site. Maybe it will do the same for lao script?

Because all I see is ????

garro, i guess you are using a Mac. I use safari and i have no problems seeing the lao script. perhaps you need to change a setting in firefox?

[technocracy]

Technocracy, are you using a Mac?

If so I have found that firefox allows me to print in Thai script on this site. Maybe it will do the same for lao script?

Because all I see is ????

Oh I've got it!

I think you need the Lao fonts installed to get them work - then just using the font option change it to the font you want i.e. Alice1 Lao below.

A quick êö©¦º®

Edit: Maybe you don't need them installed then!! Either way . . Opera doesn't have problem!

Edited August 25, 2007 by technocracy

[garro]

Technocracy, are you using a Mac?

If so I have found that firefox allows me to print in Thai script on this site. Maybe it will do the same for lao script?

Because all I see is ????

garro, i guess you are using a Mac. I use safari and i have no problems seeing the lao script. perhaps you need to change a setting in firefox?

Ooops, your right nidge. I have changed to Safari and can now read the Lao script. I tried different settings in firefox first but no luck.

Anyway as you were saying technocracy......

[Andrew Hicks]

Why oh why do people say 'falang' when it is obviously 'farang'?

Would a foreigner unable to pronounce the letter 'r' and calls a rabbit a 'wabbit' also write 'wabbit' in a letter or a forum post? No, I think not. So copy this mispronunciation, both verbally and in writing? Why 'falang'?

I have a theory.

The type of farang who uses the word 'falang' has spent too much time around Thai's who can't say 'farang'. Read into that what you will . ..

The Monty Python team did a spoof of the TV series 'Elizabeth R'. It was a Chinese version and they called it, 'Erizabeth L'.

Yes, 'falang' spoken by a farang does sound a bit of an irritating affectation. But is it possible to spend too much time around Thais?

The confabulation of different sounds by speakers of other languages can produce some amusing results. The Hausa people of West Africa have difficulty distinguishing their 'p's and 'f's. Thus when reading Shakespeare out loud, as perforce they must do at school, Romeo says to Juliet,

"Farting is such sweet sorrow."

Rather apt really!

Andrew Hicks

[mikethevigoman]

The purpose of language is to make yourself understood to other people. If you were from Newcastle and travelled to London you would find many people failing to understand you even though you were effectively speaking the same language.

If you travelled from the south of england to the north and talked about wanting a 'barf', would people know you actually wanted a bath? Better to change to pronunciation so locals can understand than stick with what works in your area and sound like a tit!

Farang or Falang is not important as long as the people hearing you know what you are talking about.

Strangeley enough, up North 'barf' is to be sick, puke, etc. So most Southerners would be given a bucket

As to Farang, Falang, I hear both words used by Thais

They could also bath in the bucket !

[t.s]

Why oh why do people say 'falang' when it is obviously 'farang'?

Would a foreigner unable to pronounce the letter 'r' and calls a rabbit a 'wabbit' also write 'wabbit' in a letter or a forum post? No, I think not. So copy this mispronunciation, both verbally and in writing? Why 'falang'?

I have a theory.

The type of farang who uses the word 'falang' has spent too much time around Thai's who can't say 'farang'. Read into that what you will . ..

i have always suspected the same thing. stangely though, people who say falang seem to get arroi correct.

[chinthee]

I'll give you another theory. Bendix says offenders are spending too much time around Thais who can't say "farang." True, but if you take taxis around Bangkok most of the drivers are not Rhodes scholars. I find that if I take a taxi, and going to a hotel, I might sometimes say long laem, rather than rong raem..but this is just to impress the driver and score brownie points so he will put on some Isaan music.

[mikethevigoman]

I've heard the Queen on Tele say "falang".

Was it in one of their rock concerts ? .I like the thai bg pronounciation of germany,. "yellow money "

[mikethevigoman]

Why oh why do people say 'falang' when it is obviously 'farang'?

Would a foreigner unable to pronounce the letter 'r' and calls a rabbit a 'wabbit' also write 'wabbit' in a letter or a forum post? No, I think not. So copy this mispronunciation, both verbally and in writing? Why 'falang'?

I have a theory.

The type of farang who uses the word 'falang' has spent too much time around Thai's who can't say 'farang'. Read into that what you will . ..

"The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog"

Spoken by 4 guys : British, American ,Aussie, Kiwi...let me ask you, whose pronunciation is correct ?

Saying it is one thing but why do people insist on spelling it this way?

I know that those Thais who say 'falang' still spell it correctly unless they are illiterate.

Due to being Irish I say things in a certain way but I don't write the way I speak as this would lead to confusion.

are you thick ? can you read and write thai ? fa®(l)ang is a thai word, written in thai script and pronounced based on the thai consonant and vowel rules.

Whether the 2nd consonant has more of an "r" or an "l" sound is subject to many different reasons.

learn thai properly, travel all over the country and you will here all sorts of this words pronounced differently based on region,social-demographic of people speaking etc.....

I am not quite sure why you need to resort to insulting me me but I will respond to your post anyway. Yes I can both read and write Thai and I have been studying it for the five years I have lived here. I am very much interested in Buddhism, and have been since my teens, and spend a lot of time reading books about Thai Buddhism which have not been translated into English. I have also helped with some translation work for a temple near Mai Sai.

In the accepted transliteration system of Thailand ร is always written as r, this has nothing to do with pronounciation, but more to do with a shared system of transliteration so as to aid understanding. If every word was written the way it was pronounced by each dialect it would cause a lot if confusion. We don't do this in English so why do you think it should be done in Thai.

When I disagee with somebody on TV I try and put across my own view without insulting them, but I see that you are not capable of this so perhaps you should try and learn some basic manners. I always feel that it is a bit cowardly insulting people on an anonymous forum.

You my friend have shot him down in flames ! well done ,.

[mikethevigoman]

Soon. I just havent decided if it's a comedy or a tragedy.

Would you like to feature in it?

I would, as long as im not killed half way through ! Happy birthday old boy,.

[Payboy]

I wonder if Steven King taps into forums like this for his ideas.

he has to do that - to triumph against his nemesis "stephen king" the imitator....

Edited August 25, 2007 by Payboy

[Richard W]

First question is how did you get the Lao script work!!

Windows XP, Firefox, Code2000 font ($5, by James Kass) and Duang Jan keyboard (mapping) created using MSKLC (the latter free from Microsoft). It's just possible that the version of Uniscribe used helped. PM me if you want to use my implementation of the keyboard - I'll bundle up the source file and the installation package, so you can decide whether to use MSKLC yourself or trust me not to have created a Trojan horse.

Some Truetype/Opentype Lao fonts don't work - I suspect their OS/2 tables are wrong, but I haven't investigated.

Although my Lao keyboard is in the UK waiting be shipped . . . anyway ຟຣັງ is correct <snip>

This comes back to the changing the ຣ sound from raa to laa - hence as I said before why I think falang probably eminates from the Lao language as however many years ago it was, the Lao language dropped the /r/ sound in preference to an /l/ sound.

I should think that since the change /r/ > /h/, only a very few of the Lao have been able to pronounce /r/, as one should for Pali <r>. The letter was split into two forms - ຮ for native words and ຣ for Indic words, but the closest most Lao ever came to /r/ for the latter was /l/.

As for the ຣ sound I think it could of been re-introduced since the last wall chart I bought for the Lao sounds it is now included (previous ones it wasn't shown - my wife also commented on it being on there also) . . . obviously since words such as falang still use it.

It may have been restored simply because Unicode includes it in the encoded part of the Lao script.

The word itself is also a bit of a hash since it breaks the cardinal rule of not having a vowel and constant grouping just ຟ.

That's why I wondered about the spelling - it should be analogous to the Lao spelling of ถนน (a loan from Khmer), for which the old form is ຖນົນ and the modern form is ຖະໜົນ.

[technocracy]

First question is how did you get the Lao script work!!

Windows XP, Firefox, Code2000 font ($5, by James Kass) and Duang Jan keyboard (mapping) created using MSKLC (the latter free from Microsoft). It's just possible that the version of Uniscribe used helped. PM me if you want to use my implementation of the keyboard - I'll bundle up the source file and the installation package, so you can decide whether to use MSKLC yourself or trust me not to have created a Trojan horse.

Some Truetype/Opentype Lao fonts don't work - I suspect their OS/2 tables are wrong, but I haven't investigated.

Although my Lao keyboard is in the UK waiting be shipped . . . anyway ຟຣັງ is correct <snip>

This comes back to the changing the ຣ sound from raa to laa - hence as I said before why I think falang probably eminates from the Lao language as however many years ago it was, the Lao language dropped the /r/ sound in preference to an /l/ sound.

I should think that since the change /r/ > /h/, only a very few of the Lao have been able to pronounce /r/, as one should for Pali <r>. The letter was split into two forms - ຮ for native words and ຣ for Indic words, but the closest most Lao ever came to /r/ for the latter was /l/.

As for the ຣ sound I think it could of been re-introduced since the last wall chart I bought for the Lao sounds it is now included (previous ones it wasn't shown - my wife also commented on it being on there also) . . . obviously since words such as falang still use it.

It may have been restored simply because Unicode includes it in the encoded part of the Lao script.

The word itself is also a bit of a hash since it breaks the cardinal rule of not having a vowel and constant grouping just ຟ.

That's why I wondered about the spelling - it should be analogous to the Lao spelling of ถนน (a loan from Khmer), for which the old form is ຖນົນ and the modern form is ຖະໜົນ.

I've sorted the Lao script now, cheers for the offer though

Falang hasn't changed in any books that I have, also I just ask my wife just to double check the spelling and she wrote it exactly the same.

So just to repeat for all the 'theorists' on here in regards being 'The type of farang who uses the word 'falang' has spent too much time around Thai's who can't say 'farang'.'

Well maybe they just spend more time with Thai's who speak a northern (issan) or lao dialect - as they say you haven't visited 'Thailand' if you haven't visited the North. So to put it more bluntly your talking shit.

Thank you and good night.

[garro]

Thank you very much technocracy in your efforts to explain Lao script. Maybe tomorrow we can examine Khymer script which also influences NE Thailand and then we can have three separate alphabets to choose from. The Royal Thai Transcription system is the one chosen by Thailand (notice I said Thailand and not Laos) when converts Thai script to Roman script and and until Thailand choses to change its system it is good enough for me. I will continue to write farang.

Thanks for the entertaining posts though.

Edited August 25, 2007 by garro

[garro]

Just to add I am not talking about รร or ร to end a word but as neither of these are transcribed as l in roman script either it is not really relevant to the conversation.

Edited August 25, 2007 by garro

[keestha]

Speaking the fully correct Thai, saying krap and not kap, and farang instead of falang, would make you less well understood. An unwritten set of rules has developed when to pronounce the ร raw reua as an L and when as an R in informal everyday conversation. In the word karakadakom (july) it is an R, in falang it is an L. Sure it depends on where in Thailand you are, also. But I have seen Thais frowning their eyebrows, really having to concentrate understanding a foreigner who learned his oh so correct Thai in a language school.

Oh well, speaking a foreign language has its own psychology I guess. When I am speaking German, which is not my native language, I am sticking more closely to the correct grammar than the native speakers do. Speaking a foreign language you really want to speak it perfectly, whilst you are quite slack handling your own language.

Edited August 25, 2007 by keestha