I Just Don't Get It.

[Falang Pan]

I had an irritating discussion with my Thai teacher a half hour ago that left my nerves a bit jangled.

I had corrected her pronunciation of the word "row" when used to mean the line that a group of objects forms or when used to mean to propel a boat with a paddle. She refused to believe that my pronunciation was correct. That she would not accept my authority but kept trying to correct me and tell me that row in those meanings rhymes with cow was fairly irritating. To her dismay I insisted on showing her the correct pronunciation in an authoritative online dictionary. She still refused to accept this correction to her pronunciation as valid. This seemed completely insane to me. I loose my sense of humor when someone stubbornly acts insanely stupid and refuses to acknowledge simple realities.

My question is, is her behavious an isolated incident from an isolated individual, or do you recognize any pattern in her behaviour that is particularly Thai?

How would you react in such a situation? Do things like this happen with your Thai friends or girlfriends?

[Englishman]

I used to knock around with a Thai girl in Hong Kong. I lost count how many times she insisted that my description of an English word was wrong (her Engllish was very basic). It infuriated me that she would argue this with an Englishman, who's native tongue was obviously English... but I realise now that she was deliberately trying to infuriate me and I played into her hands.

It wasn't only this, though. It could apply to almost any situation. Even when faced with the blinding fact that white was white, she would still insist that it was black etc etc etc. She could never admit to being wrong about anything.

I think anyone who has spent time in Thai company will tell you that it's just the way they are... best you can do is love 'em for it and laugh it off.

[simon43]

Losing face, as simple as that! From my limited experience of Thai people, they simply do not possess the ability to admit when they are wrong.

If I make an error then I'm 'big enough' to say that I'm wrong. After all, everyone is human....

[Falang Pan]

best you can do is love 'em for it and laugh it off.

Well, that is becoming a real problem for me - to be able to keep loving. A real problem. Willful stupidity is an abhorent trait.

[Jeff1]

I have to agree , it's a " face " thing. So try not to let it get to you.

You can lead a horse to water...........

Have a chang,

Jeff

[Englishman]

best you can do is love 'em for it and laugh it off.

Well, that is becoming a real problem for me - to be able to keep loving. A real problem. Willful stupidity is an abhorent trait.

I can see we've got a bit of work to do here old chap

Don't try to fight it. It really is the best way to go. If you try to fight it, they will often thrive on your frustration... if not, then they just can't stand to be wrong.

Really though, don't fight it. Just laugh it off and everything will just slot into place, believe me. Pour yourself a Mekong and coke, light up a Krong Thip and put your feet up, safe in the knowledge that her stubborness will backfire on her sooner or later.

[Falang Pan]

I have to agree , it's a " face " thing. So try not to let it get to you.

You can lead a horse to water...........

Have a chang,

Jeff

Sound advice.

Phew. There is a lot about this country that I love, but when my patience and understanding are strained, I do have my doubts about staying here. Today I was wondering if my ability to love and trust has been compromised during my 1.5 year stay here. The face thing leads to a host of problems, such as concealing or lying about emotions and actions. Not something I can accept while keeping a high enough level of respect to have a serious love relationship.

I wonder if those who have successful relationships here are just very different from me, or if they have high quality mates.

[Tornado]

She could of been having a bad day?!

[Englishman]

I have to agree , it's a " face " thing. So try not to let it get to you.

You can lead a horse to water...........

Have a chang,

Jeff

Sound advice.

Phew. There is a lot about this country that I love, but when my patience and understanding are strained, I do have my doubts about staying here. Today I was wondering if my ability to love and trust has been compromised during my 1.5 year stay here. The face thing leads to a host of problems, such as concealing or lying about emotions and actions. Not something I can accept while keeping a high enough level of respect to have a serious love relationship.

I wonder if those who have successful relationships here are just very different from me, or if they have high quality mates.

I can only speak from personal experience but when you're with the right girls and you have the right mates, the concealment and lying that you mention ceases to be such a big issue. It seems to me that these thing are only a problem with those who are not your close and trusted ones.

I propose you have one or more of the following problems...

1. You've been mixing with the wrong people

2. You misread their cultural traits as an attack on you personally

3. You work too hard and need some 'Down time'

4. Perhaps Thailand really isn't the place for you.

Don't forget... Mekong, Coke, Krong Thip

[Falang Pan]

She could of been having a bad day?!

I can't imagine how having a bad day would explain that behaviour. A bad mood can make someone rude, but I've never known it to make someone as immovable as a mountain in her refusal to correct a simple pronuntiation error. Anyway, her day and her mood had been fine.

Thanks to those who shared their experiences about similar patterns. Just knowing that I'm not crazy and not the only one learning how to deal with these cultural differences helps.

Has such a thing not happened to you Tornado?

[Tornado]

She could of been having a bad day?!

I can't imagine how having a bad day would explain that behaviour. A bad mood can make someone rude, but I've never known it to make someone as immovable as a mountain in her refusal to correct a simple pronuntiation error. Anyway, her day and her mood had been fine.

Thanks to those who shared their experiences about similar patterns. Just knowing that I'm not crazy and not the only one learning how to deal with these cultural differences helps.

Has such a thing not happened to you Tornado?

It has many times mate.

I think Thai people are not like that in general though, she is not the norm in my experience. I tend to find most want to learn and are pretty open, then again Im not a teacher...... so really I have no idea regarding students.

[Falang Pan]

I propose you have one or more of the following problems...

1. You've been mixing with the wrong people

2. You misread their cultural traits as an attack on you personally

3. You work too hard and need some 'Down time'

4. Perhaps Thailand really isn't the place for you.

Don't forget... Mekong, Coke, Krong Thip

I think you may be right that I've been mixing with the wrong people. I just wonder how to increase the likelyhood of finding folks who were more inspiring. 10 girlfriends, and I've loved them all, but after getting very intimate I now would not choose to remain long term with any of them. If there were some clubs or groups that attracted a certain sort, I'd go there, but I know of none.

> You misread their cultural traits as an attack on you personally

Willful ignorance is an attack on what it means to be human. It is an insult that I can't help but take a bit personally, even if it has nothing to do with me. I find it very difficult not to take offense, perhaps in the same way some are insulted by offensive racist comments that have nothing to do with them personally. It is just too far below our mutual human potential to be acceptable to me, morally. I can grit my teeth and shut up, but my patience is tried, my respect falls, and even my ability to love is affected. Yes, I have a lot of work to do.

> You work too hard and need some 'Down time'

Nope, I'm semi retired.

> Perhaps Thailand really isn't the place for you.

Ya, that might be it. It's a matter of pros and cons. The pros are winning so far. I plan to build boats and sail out of here eventually.

On your advice I'm sipping Sangsom. Good advice.

[Wie]

best you can do is love 'em for it and laugh it off.

Well, that is becoming a real problem for me - to be able to keep loving. A real problem. Willful stupidity is an abhorent trait.

Well, have you ever heard a Thai politician admit making a mistake? There's no such thing in Thailand.

Your girfriend took it one step too far, she's losing more face IMHO by not admitting a mistake than by admitting a mistake.

The other thing that I experienced is that some Thai people can not stand criticism, regardless of being right or wrong.

It's all very inmature, and culture shouldn't play a role here when facts are clear. It's simply childlike behavior.

[Falang Pan]

she is not the norm in my experience.

Ya, that was not normal behaviour in my experience either.

The underlying motive for that behaviour has mushroomed into various irritating or unfortunate actions in my friends and lovers though. Occasionally. I don't know how to make friends with that, or even if I should. I have a lot of doubts. Every culture has weak points and strong points. I'm not sure if the weak points here are so culturally widespread as to make deep intimacy with a Thai highly unlikely for me.

[Falang Pan]

It's simply childlike behavior.

Agreed. And yet it is behaviour many of us have noticed. I'll leave you to draw the inference.

[craig]

This refusal to admit a mistake is not confined to Thais. I taught school in both mainland China and Japan and found the same sort of behavior. But...upon reflection I found this in many people in in the USA, where I am from. During my millitary service many officers above me, just would not own up when they ######ed up and subordinates the same...in the workplace the same sort of thing...

Maybe a bit of maturity, lack of fear of ridicule or a reprimand, and god know what will allow someone to admit error.

My Thai girlfriend is willing to admit and apologize when in error...it does take some persuading sometime to get her to see the error...or it might be she is just humoring me.

In any case, when the tension mounts get an oil massage.

[Falang Pan]

.or it might be she is just humoring me. 

Ohh, you've hit on another one. Another intimacy stopper. The need to diffuse a situation instead of delving deeper into it is very strong in this culture. I do appreciate letting things go, but saying "whatever" any time there is any potential for conflict erases the possibility to communicate. I can't get past that either. I'm starting to whine, aren't I?

Today my Thai teacher tried to save face by asking me what I wanted her to say or do, and she just did it. As if she wasn't really admitting to needing to know how to correct her pronunciation, but was just humoring me, and would do anything (other than genuinely of her own volition admit to the need to learn) to change the subject. Ya, sure she lost face and despite her ploy she knew it. But the situation made it harder for us to trust each other. She learned she can't trust me to respect her need for face, and I learned I can't trust her to be forthright about simple matters.

[nmesparrow]

no teacher wants to be corrected by a student, especially if it was in front of others.

[Falang Pan]

no teacher wants to be corrected by a student, especially if it was in front of others.

Hmm. Well, we were alone, and prior to our new relationship of teacher student, we had been lovers for a month or two. She has a new boyfriend now, and we seem both quite comfortable with just being friends now, so I genuinely don't see our previous relationship as lovers having any negative effect on our relations. My point is that if being in the position of teaching me THAI makes it impossible for her to listen to me trying to help her with her ENGLISH, even though we are friends, then this level of pride is very problematic to me and holds me back from wanting to be emotionally close. I wonder about how much closeness is possible with those for whom face is more important than truth.

[andyinkat]

Falang Pan,

Thank you; I have been following your thread with great interest. when i relocate to a new environment i am always aware that there are some massive cultural differences, and I know that the onus is on me as the immigrant to listen, learn and adapt. You are helping me to get a handle on 'face'; such an unfamiliar concept in the West. I have a great deal to learn but I would say that the opposit eof 'face' is not truth, it's 'in your face'. And I think that emotional closeness can come when that cultural gap is narrowed, but as i say, I believe that the onus is on the immigrant, not the host.

[meadish_sweetball]

To generalize and make it simple (based on personal experience) - Thai friends, and Thai people who are clearly designated as your subordinates will admit that they are wrong if they are told so in a nice way, but if you get wound up about being right, there is a phenomenon I have observed several times here in Thailand, the "deadlock", where you will not get anywhere with the person in question.

You should be gentle about correcting anyone, definitely not do it in front of others (which you didn't). Rubbing it in their face makes it even more unlikely that they will accept it. Instead of a matter of right or wrong, it then turns into a matter of authority and deference. This is totally unproductive. You can maintain your point in a discussion, but if you are not smooth and polite about it, you will lose face just as much as the person being wrong.

After all, how important is the pronuciation of "row", if you compare it to having a decent relationship to this lover/teacher of yours?

I can see why the issue irritates you, but this is the worst place in the world to live by the philosophy "fight for your right"... and I wish it wasn't, too, sometimes.

[Falang Pan]

And I think that emotional closeness can come when that cultural gap is narrowed, but as i say, I believe that the onus is on the immigrant, not the host.

Hi Andyinkat. Thanks for your thoughtful response. Food for more thought.

At this point I'm of the opinion that some cultural differences are not merely different and equally valid ways to organize perceptions and actions. Some cultural attitudes and practices are inherently better or worse than others. For instance, any attitude that is generally considered childish and immature is inferior to one that is generally considered as very mature. Compassionate and understanding is superior to selfish and blind to anything but ones own view.

A recent post talked about a higher than developed country average of incest in some parts of Thailand. Cultural attitudes are not merely different and equal, but some average cultural attitudes can be viewed through the lens of developmental psychology, which recognizes a pattern of developmental changes in perception that are cross cultural in their pattern of change from one view to another.

The value of face is something I have to adapt to here, but for me it remains a barrier to intimacy. I really wonder if the importance of face and the multitude of social implications (such as the poor education system and the lack of emphasis on logic and creativity) precludes a deep intimacy. I wonder if we just learn to compromise so much, we forget what deep intimacy once meant to us. I appreciate good sex, a warm body to hold, shared laughter and just sharing the same space. But intimacy used to mean a lot more to me than that. It used to mean being inspired by and inspiring my mate. It used mean being able to respectfully share any detail about anything. That has never happened to me here, and that often seems like too great a loss.

I once was in love with a Thai woman, whom I had been with for 6 months. The whole time I was with her she had been lying to me about her true feelings for me. I came to see her as living her life through a mask. She eventually told me that she has no one in her life that she bears all of her soul to - not even her dear sister. Her words generally come from her mask, not from a cohesive whole ego that some call the heart.

Several other Thais that I met both before and after dating this woman have told me that Thais often speak from a mask. One 19 year old girl high-so college girl once explicitly warned me very specifically about this. She claimed to be exempt from the import of her warning, but I later learned from a girlfriend that she had been dissing me to my girlfriend, while being all friendly faces to me. She was telling my GF that I was not an interesting man because my dress was out of date and I didn't obviously appear to have much money.

The importance of face, and the many implications of face are aspects of Thai culture that have made intimacy with the Thais I've known difficult. I can't fully adapt to face taking precedence over truth in communication and maintain deep intimacy.

[Falang Pan]

but if you get wound up about being right, there is a phenomenon I have observed several times here in Thailand, the "deadlock", where you will not get anywhere with the person in question.

Thanks for confirming the pattern. Sigh, I guess there is nothing for it but to try to let such situations go.

Sometimes the refusal to be honest about a simple issue, like why the person doesn't want to eat at a certain restaurant and whether or not that person has ever eaten there before, can just be too much for me. Is it really too much to expect to able to be listened to and taken seriously and get a straight answer to a simple and benign question? I find it extremely disrespectful to be lied to and ignored, and can't come to grips with the fact that I have to put up with extremely childish and selfish behavior in order to allow someone to save face. It is, at this point, often beyond me to lower my expectations to such pathetic standards. I really don't know what else there is to do but lower my expecations though, so I do. This sometimes makes me seriously question if being here is leading to me losing important values. I don't want to live a life saying "may pen rai". I don't want to live a life of seriously compromised interpersonal standards.

[Darknight]

no teacher wants to be corrected by a student, especially if it was in front of others.

Hmm. Well, we were alone, and prior to our new relationship of teacher student, we had been lovers for a month or two. She has a new boyfriend now, and we seem both quite comfortable with just being friends now, so I genuinely don't see our previous relationship as lovers having any negative effect on our relations. My point is that if being in the position of teaching me THAI makes it impossible for her to listen to me trying to help her with her ENGLISH, even though we are friends, then this level of pride is very problematic to me and holds me back from wanting to be emotionally close. I wonder about how much closeness is possible with those for whom face is more important than truth.

i'll give you a good advice .

If you want to stay with her:

You need to TRAIN her in understanding your ways as well. It's not because you live in thailand that you have to completely change your ways. If find this the biggest crap in this forum all the time.

Oh we are the guest we have to completely change

When you are in a multi-racial and cultural relationship you MEET IN THE MIDDLE SOMEWHERE. not either way.

If you don't want to be with her:

Just tell her to go look for a new teacher

Tell her you can't work with somebody that finds "Saving Face" more important then a relation.

Then the ball will be in her court to change.....

Don't forget that many Thais are still a farmer in knowledge and culture even if they Drive a big pickup and have a cell phone now. Elementary rules about politeness, racism, are far of the western standard. Instead they have only their "Dream" to cover everything.

It took me two Years of arguing, fighting,training for my wife to finally report a problem immediatly when it happens instead of waiting three weeks to "save face" and hope it would go away. By that time it was usually impossible to fix.

Most Thais are living in an outside Dreamworld. Very rarely you come across a thai that doesn't have this trait. But when you do it's mostly a refreshing part of your day.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Methinks mountains out of molehills.

[andyinkat]

Again, Falang Pan, in all honesty I'm finding your outpouring of honest frustration very educative.

I have a further response which I can't think how to word without it seeming offensive, but I really don't mean it to be so. I’m also going to have to completely contradict Darknight.

What I feel I'm 'hearing' from you is that you have a fixed notion of what is 'right' attitude and behaviour. You have acquired this fixed idea from the culture of your upbringing - the West. You seem to be measuring Thai colleagues/partners by how far they measure up to your relative values which you have brought from the West. You cannot change Thailand to your fixed view - if you want peace of mind you must either change yourself or settle in a place where your fixed view is shared by the host society. So really I'm suggesting that the heart of the matter is a philosophical problem.

Now you might want to protest and say that I'm missing the point. There is an absolute difference between 'mature' and 'childish' behaviour you say. Well when you put it like that of course there is, but let's examine it more deeply. As meadish_sweetball points out, is it really more mature to have to be 'right' or every trivial incident? Twenty years ago a great Buddhist teacher rocked my ego to its roots when he asked me rhetorically,

Is it better to be right - or to be happy?

Finally, I have a simple, open and honest question for all of us, and for which none of us on this forum by definition has the answer:

There are successful long-term happy Thai marriages - how does a Thai man in such a relationship 'handle' theis 'problem'?

[TypicalAnonym]

Sometimes the refusal to be honest about a simple issue, like why the person doesn't want to eat at a certain restaurant and whether or not that person has ever eaten there before, can just be too much for me.  Is it really too much to expect to able to be listened to and taken seriously and get a straight answer to a simple and benign question?

No, it certainly isn't. And adding to the exasperation is that in many such circumstances there seem to be no logical reason whatsoever why the small lie was told. Wouldn't it just be easier to answer such a question truthfully than to make up a lie?

I think love -- and therefore true intimacy -- rests on mutual respect. The little lies etc undermine this so it's no wonder you feel your value system being eroded. Gaps in your level of education, world outlook, even intelligence, etc, pale in comparison to problems introduced by lack of respect and open and honest cummunication.

[Snapshot]

falang pan !

10 girlfriends, and I've loved them all

Eehhh Mr "pan" - over how many days/weeks/months ?

[Falang Pan]

What I feel I'm 'hearing' from you is that you have a fixed notion of what is 'right' attitude and behaviour.

I think I understand your multicultural perspective. Whether there are value systems that can be applied cross culturally is a long and difficult topic to debate. Briefly, thousands of large careful studies have strongly suggested there are several lines of development that children and young adults go through that are cross cultural in their stages. Not everyone arrives at the same final stage, therefore some folks are more morally, cognitively, musically, etc developed than others. Your view that there is no ultimate right or wrong that can be used as a cross cultural yard stick is too forgiving, and slightly beside the point. It isn't exactly a matter of a right way or a wrong way, but of a more inclusive way or of a less inclusive way. A child isn't wrong to be a child, but an adult can include more information into a cohesive whole than a child. An adult can see someone else’s perspective while at the same time having her own. I would prefer to have a relationship with a peer, not with someone who in many ways is devevelopmentally equal to a western teenager.

One of my favorite books that introduced me to developmental theory is A Brief History of Everything, by Ken Wilber.

I know that the notion of applying developmental theory to an entire culture is very controversial, and some may even consider the idea as to be so offensive as to not be worth even discussing. I am of the opinion that the value of saving face here stifles interpersonal criticism, which in turn stifles development of introspection, which in turn stifles emotional and cognitive development. This isn't racism, it is pointing out how our values and environment foster or hinder our growth.

You may not believe in notions of cross culturally measurable personal growth. If so, you may want to look into the current status of that debate. Wilber is my favorite scholar on the subject, and his writing is very accessible.

[Falang Pan]

falang pan !

10 girlfriends, and I've loved them all

Eehhh Mr "pan" - over how many days/weeks/months ?

I was afraid someone would ask that. I've been here 22 months. Many of the relationships were long term but not monogamous. Polyamory was discussed in another thread. I've come to the conclusion that that topic is too emotionally charged to easily allow for rational public discourse.

If you are curious about polyamory Ira Glass did an hour long radio show on the topic that can be listened to at the radio show archives at www.thisamericanlife.org .