Just now, Hummin said:

Rage baiting under delusion intoxication

Rage baiting is spewing lies.

The truth is the truth.

Do you think we were justified in smashing the Mullahs?

18 minutes ago, Lacessit said:

I suggest you look at the amount of blood and treasure Australia has spent in supporting America in its various wars.

If you really don't want us as allies, kindly remove the nuclear targets of Pine Gap and North West Cape from our lands.

While you are about it, take 5000 Marines out of Darwin. I'm sure they would be much more useful in Iran, as boots on the ground.

I do not speak on behalf of the USA. I doubt you speak on behalf of Australians either. You offer an altruistic opinion of Australian policies that fits your political bias. It is Australia that is at risk of the expansionist Chinese, not the USA. It is the Chinese who are claiming parts of SE Asia and moving its military to assert the claim, not the USA. It is China that has mounted multiple cyber attacks and hacking, including the theft of critical military and industrial technological information. You have a convenient memory. The US tariffs pale in comparison to what the Chinese did to Australia when the Chinese applied their punitive tariffs in 2020, all because the Australians questioned the origins of Covid 19. The Australian economy was in tatters. (And no, I do not support the current US tariff policies.)

Yes, Australia is a valuable friendly nation to the USA, but so so too is the USA to Australia. Yes, there was significant sacrifice of Australians that sometimes benefited interests of the USA, but the Australian activity was primarily for the interests of Australia. Yes, let's look at the Australian actions over the past century;

-Boer War: It was in support of Great Britain

-WWI: Again in support of Great Britain. The catastrophe at Gallipoli had nothing to do with the USA, or will you blame them for that too.

-WWII: Again in support of Great Britain, and for self preservation. The Japanese were violently expanding in the South pacific. Australian civilians in captured zones were sent to concentration camps.

-Korean War: An international operation with a need to protect against the expansionist Communist Chinese and Russians.

- Malaya: Again in support of Great Britain and its own national interests as it fought the Chinese backed Communist insurgents.

-Indochina: Primarily for national interests. The Menzies government believed that as the Communists spread through SE Asia, once Vietnam fell, so too would Indonesia and Malaysia. In hindsight, people criticize the Australians, but at the time it was a legitimate and fair concern. Australia was at risk of the Communist expansion, with a direct threat to its trade routes, and commercial markets, both import and export.

- Repeated interventions in Papua New Guinea, Solomon Islands and Malaysia's Borneo region. The Bougainville Intervention had nothing to do with the USA and was about regional stability. Australia's support of Malaysia in Borneo was to stop Indonesia from grabbing territory, and was for regional stability.

-Liberation of Kuwait: An international effort to liberate Kuwait that was not for the USA and served Australia's interests.

-Contribution in the Iraq War, did support the USA and the 2000 personnel who participated over the 10 years was valued and appreciated, but was not comparable to the deployments in Malaya, Malaysia, and Indochina. Australia obtains 90% of its oil and gas from Middle east producers. It was in Australia's national interests to ensure that Kuwait, a major supplier was able to export to Australia again, and that Iraq could not interfere with shipments for the Persian Gulf. It is simplistic to say that Australian participation was because of an allegiance to the USA.

-Support in Afghanistan: A small but valuable contribution. Australia had condemned the Taliban and had staked out a leadership role in protecting human rights. It's activity supported the USA, but also made a mark for Australian positions on human rights and international stability.

You want the US military out of Australia. OK, go for it. I don't think the communities hosting them will support you on that, nor will Australia's defence and foreign policy experts. The US presence serves Australian interests as much as it does the USA's. I believe that technology will result in drawdowns of personnel in the near future anyway.

Edited May 4May 4 by Patong2021

2 hours ago, BarraMarra said:

Forgot the Saudis went for the uk's Typhoon i.e joint Euro Strike Aircraft above what the Yanks could offer.

Are you a simpleton? The Saudis will be purchasing 48 F-35s from the USA. Did you miss that?

The Typhoons are replacing the Tornados and the intent was to place them with other non European equipment because they wish to keep a fleet diversification. The Typhoons have a specific use and the Saudi fleet will still be primarily F-15.

The Saudis learnt from the Canadian export of APVs. There were disruptions in the exports as various groups protested their export from Canada and canada suspended exports because of the Kashoggi event. The USA like Canada has a robust oversight of arms exports. Shipments can be blocked if they violate US human rights requirements. Despite the EU and UK's lofty declarations, they prioritize arms sales. The Saudis want multiple suppliers, and rightly so. They should not be dependent on a sole supplier.

3 hours ago, BarraMarra said:

The Electrical problem resulted in the fire that killed a crewman on board HMCS Chicoutimi was due to them setting to Sea with an open hatch whilst on the surface. As for a dent Iv'e never heard of that happening, if the UK are that poor why have they been Contracted to build and deliver at least five type 26 Frigates in 2025 to the Royal Norwegian Navy the largest export deal in UK history and why was the UK contracted to design and build Australia's first Nuclear powered Submarine. We have never lost a nuclear Sub the yanks have lost 2. Form your own opinion who builds the best and safest.

You have ignored the electrical defects of the submarine fleet. The information dump you have made is irrelevant.

The submarines the UK sold to Canada were defective and it was an intentional deceit.

2 hours ago, save the frogs said:

no, he's not graceful or an eloquent speaker.

but he's got Big Balls.

Incorrect. The man is a coward, a non-patriot, and a total p****. It is all about the money, and the quality of life for the average American means less than zero to this filthy garbage president.

Just now, spidermike007 said:

Incorrect. The man is a coward, a non-patriot, and a total p****. It is all about the money, and the quality of life for the average American means less than zero to this filthy garbage president.

So do you deny he has big balls?

Those were such innocent times.

Just now, Yagoda said:

I do. Folks with common sense do. What dont you understand?

How do you lower the price on prescription drugs by 1,000%?

Just now, Hawaiian said:

How do you lower the price on prescription drugs by 1,000%?

I dont know, which drugs made by who and where. What does that have to do with our allies

Just now, Yagoda said:

I dont know, which drugs made by who and where. What does that have to do with our allies

Ask Trump. He is the one who said he would lower prices by 1,000%. I'm still waiting for that. So far my medication costs have only gone up.

Just now, Hawaiian said:

Ask Trump. He is the one who said he would lower prices by 1,000%. I'm still waiting for that. So far my medication costs have only gone up.

My meds are still free LOL

Just now, Yagoda said:

My meds are still free LOL

More deflection by you. You still haven't explained what Trump meant after you posted you understood every word he said. You need not reply if all you can do is beat around the bush.

1 hour ago, Patong2021 said:

I do not speak on behalf of the USA. I doubt you speak on behalf of Australians either. You offer an altruistic opinion of Australian policies that fits your political bias. It is Australia that is at risk of the expansionist Chinese, not the USA. It is the Chinese who are claiming parts of SE Asia and moving its military to assert the claim, not the USA. It is China that has mounted multiple cyber attacks and hacking, including the theft of critical military and industrial technological information. You have a convenient memory. The US tariffs pale in comparison to what the Chinese did to Australia when the Chinese applied their punitive tariffs in 2020, all because the Australians questioned the origins of Covid 19. The Australian economy was in tatters. (And no, I do not support the current US tariff policies.)

Yes, Australia is a valuable friendly nation to the USA, but so so too is the USA to Australia. Yes, there was significant sacrifice of Australians that sometimes benefited interests of the USA, but the Australian activity was primarily for the interests of Australia. Yes, let's look at the Australian actions over the past century;

-Boer War: It was in support of Great Britain

-WWI: Again in support of Great Britain. The catastrophe at Gallipoli had nothing to do with the USA, or will you blame them for that too.

-WWII: Again in support of Great Britain, and for self preservation. The Japanese were violently expanding in the South pacific. Australian civilians in captured zones were sent to concentration camps.

-Korean War: An international operation with a need to protect against the expansionist Communist Chinese and Russians.

- Malaya: Again in support of Great Britain and its own national interests as it fought the Chinese backed Communist insurgents.

-Indochina: Primarily for national interests. The Menzies government believed that as the Communists spread through SE Asia, once Vietnam fell, so too would Indonesia and Malaysia. In hindsight, people criticize the Australians, but at the time it was a legitimate and fair concern. Australia was at risk of the Communist expansion, with a direct threat to its trade routes, and commercial markets, both import and export.

- Repeated interventions in Papua New Guinea, Solomon Islands and Malaysia's Borneo region. The Bougainville Intervention had nothing to do with the USA and was about regional stability. Australia's support of Malaysia in Borneo was to stop Indonesia from grabbing territory, and was for regional stability.

-Liberation of Kuwait: An international effort to liberate Kuwait that was not for the USA and served Australia's interests.

-Contribution in the Iraq War, did support the USA and the 2000 personnel who participated over the 10 years was valued and appreciated, but was not comparable to the deployments in Malaya, Malaysia, and Indochina. Australia obtains 90% of its oil and gas from Middle east producers. It was in Australia's national interests to ensure that Kuwait, a major supplier was able to export to Australia again, and that Iraq could not interfere with shipments for the Persian Gulf. It is simplistic to say that Australian participation was because of an allegiance to the USA.

-Support in Afghanistan: A small but valuable contribution. Australia had condemned the Taliban and had staked out a leadership role in protecting human rights. It's activity supported the USA, but also made a mark for Australian positions on human rights and international stability.

You want the US military out of Australia. OK, go for it. I don't think the communities hosting them will support you on that, nor will Australia's defence and foreign policy experts. The US presence serves Australian interests as much as it does the USA's. I believe that technology will result in drawdowns of personnel in the near future anyway.

Wrong. I do speak for many Australians:

Unreliable Ally: According to a late 2025 YouGov poll for the Australia Institute, approximately 48% of Australians now consider the U.S. to be a "somewhat" or "very" unreliable security ally.

Declining Trust: The 2025 Lowy Institute Poll reported that trust in the U.S. "to act responsibly in the world" fell to 36%, a 20-point drop from the previous year and the lowest level recorded in the poll's history.

The "Reliability Split": When asked to compare leaders, Australians were evenly split (45% each) on whether the U.S. President or Chinese President Xi Jinping would be a more reliable partner for Australia.

Those are polls: These are facts:

1/ The USA has a positive trade balance with Australia. Tariffs of 10% generally, 50% on copper and aluminium, 500% on pharmaceuticals. Some of which the USA cannot make itself. Would you describe this as the actions of a friendly ally?

2/ Our exports to China are worth four times what we export to America, with next to no tariffs. Who should we be giving precedence to?

3/ We have a cockamamie deal of AUKUS where we are spending $370 billion on secondhand nuclear submarines which MAY be delivered 10 years from now, into an environment where drones and AI are reshaping the face of war. Am I alone in thinking this is insane?

4/ Trump has an unparalleled record of ripping up agreements that are not in tune with his late night social media posts. Why should Australians think he would come to our aid, if we are attacked?

5/ China does not use direct military action, except in the South China Sea. It uses soft power, loans for infrastructure to impoverished countries. The mutual benefits of soft power can be seen in the high speed rail link between Vientiane and Luang Prabang, which is running at a profit. The threat to Australia is over-hyped by a complaisant media.

6/ What sticks in the craw of most Australians is Trump's attempt to neuter our Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme, so we can pay Big Pharma US prices for our medications. You think this is the action of a friend?

1 hour ago, Patong2021 said:

You have ignored the electrical defects of the submarine fleet. The information dump you have made is irrelevant.

The submarines the UK sold to Canada were defective and it was an intentional deceit.

Not according to the editor of Janes fighting ships;

Stephen Saunders, editor of Jane's Fighting Ships, argued that "there is not something inherently wrong with the class of submarines."

Just now, Lacessit said:

Wrong. I do speak for many Australians:

Unreliable Ally: According to a late 2025 YouGov poll for the Australia Institute, approximately 48% of Australians now consider the U.S. to be a "somewhat" or "very" unreliable security ally.

Declining Trust: The 2025 Lowy Institute Poll reported that trust in the U.S. "to act responsibly in the world" fell to 36%, a 20-point drop from the previous year and the lowest level recorded in the poll's history.

The "Reliability Split": When asked to compare leaders, Australians were evenly split (45% each) on whether the U.S. President or Chinese President Xi Jinping would be a more reliable partner for Australia.

Those are polls: These are facts:

1/ The USA has a positive trade balance with Australia. Tariffs of 10% generally, 50% on copper and aluminium, 500% on pharmaceuticals. Some of which the USA cannot make itself. Would you describe this as the actions of a friendly ally?

2/ Our exports to China are worth four times what we export to America, with next to no tariffs. Who should we be giving precedence to?

3/ We have a cockamamie deal of AUKUS where we are spending $370 billion on secondhand nuclear submarines which MAY be delivered 10 years from now, into an environment where drones and AI are reshaping the face of war. Am I alone in thinking this is insane?

4/ Trump has an unparalleled record of ripping up agreements that are not in tune with his late night social media posts. Why should Australians think he would come to our aid, if we are attacked?

5/ China does not use direct military action, except in the South China Sea. It uses soft power, loans for infrastructure to impoverished countries. The mutual benefits of soft power can be seen in the high speed rail link between Vientiane and Luang Prabang, which is running at a profit. The threat to Australia is over-hyped by a complaisant media.

6/ What sticks in the craw of most Australians is Trump's attempt to neuter our Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme, so we can pay Big Pharma US prices for our medications. You think this is the action of a friend?

Polls come and go especially when you pick what you want to cite and ignore the parts that do not support your political bias. The same Lowy Poll showed that 64% of Australians still report distrust in the Chinese government. The same poll had 72% of respondents saying China’s actions in the South China Sea threaten Australia’s interests. Most back cooperation, including joint patrols, with partners like the Philippines, Japan and the US, to maintain stability. You do not understand that there is a difference between constructive criticism and dislike of some US policies with a desire to sever relations. The disfavour will pass once Trump is gone, although the world should get used to the reality that the USA likes its tariffs. The Democrats were not much for free trade.

Australians didn't like China in 2020, but now they are back to kowtowing to the Chinese since China is its largest trading partner and the critical market that keeps Australians wealthy. I expect that with time, the Australians and USA relations will also improve. In international relations, enemies can become friends when the need arises. Who would have imagined that one day the Israelis, would be operating a missile defense system inside the UAE, defending Arab countries and sharing intelligence with Arab nations, but that's today's reality. And so, one day soon, Australia and the USA will be best pals again.

Just now, Patong2021 said:

Polls come and go especially when you pick what you want to cite and ignore the parts that do not support your political bias. The same Lowy Poll showed that 64% of Australians still report distrust in the Chinese government. The same poll had 72% of respondents saying China’s actions in the South China Sea threaten Australia’s interests. Most back cooperation, including joint patrols, with partners like the Philippines, Japan and the US, to maintain stability. You do not understand that there is a difference between constructive criticism and dislike of some US policies with a desire to sever relations. The disfavour will pass once Trump is gone, although the world should get used to the reality that the USA likes its tariffs. The Democrats were not much for free trade.

Australians didn't like China in 2020, but now they are back to kowtowing to the Chinese since China is its largest trading partner and the critical market that keeps Australians wealthy. I expect that with time, the Australians and USA relations will also improve. In international relations, enemies can become friends when the need arises. Who would have imagined that one day the Israelis, would be operating a missile defense system inside the UAE, defending Arab countries and sharing intelligence with Arab nations, but that's today's reality. And so, one day soon, Australia and the USA will be best pals again.

You know the old saying about burning your bridges. You may live to regret it.

3 hours ago, Patong2021 said:

I do not speak on behalf of the USA. I doubt you speak on behalf of Australians either. You offer an altruistic opinion of Australian policies that fits your political bias. It is Australia that is at risk of the expansionist Chinese, not the USA. It is the Chinese who are claiming parts of SE Asia and moving its military to assert the claim, not the USA. It is China that has mounted multiple cyber attacks and hacking, including the theft of critical military and industrial technological information. You have a convenient memory. The US tariffs pale in comparison to what the Chinese did to Australia when the Chinese applied their punitive tariffs in 2020, all because the Australians questioned the origins of Covid 19. The Australian economy was in tatters. (And no, I do not support the current US tariff policies.)

Yes, Australia is a valuable friendly nation to the USA, but so so too is the USA to Australia. Yes, there was significant sacrifice of Australians that sometimes benefited interests of the USA, but the Australian activity was primarily for the interests of Australia. Yes, let's look at the Australian actions over the past century;

-Boer War: It was in support of Great Britain

-WWI: Again in support of Great Britain. The catastrophe at Gallipoli had nothing to do with the USA, or will you blame them for that too.

-WWII: Again in support of Great Britain, and for self preservation. The Japanese were violently expanding in the South pacific. Australian civilians in captured zones were sent to concentration camps.

-Korean War: An international operation with a need to protect against the expansionist Communist Chinese and Russians.

- Malaya: Again in support of Great Britain and its own national interests as it fought the Chinese backed Communist insurgents.

-Indochina: Primarily for national interests. The Menzies government believed that as the Communists spread through SE Asia, once Vietnam fell, so too would Indonesia and Malaysia. In hindsight, people criticize the Australians, but at the time it was a legitimate and fair concern. Australia was at risk of the Communist expansion, with a direct threat to its trade routes, and commercial markets, both import and export.

- Repeated interventions in Papua New Guinea, Solomon Islands and Malaysia's Borneo region. The Bougainville Intervention had nothing to do with the USA and was about regional stability. Australia's support of Malaysia in Borneo was to stop Indonesia from grabbing territory, and was for regional stability.

-Liberation of Kuwait: An international effort to liberate Kuwait that was not for the USA and served Australia's interests.

-Contribution in the Iraq War, did support the USA and the 2000 personnel who participated over the 10 years was valued and appreciated, but was not comparable to the deployments in Malaya, Malaysia, and Indochina. Australia obtains 90% of its oil and gas from Middle east producers. It was in Australia's national interests to ensure that Kuwait, a major supplier was able to export to Australia again, and that Iraq could not interfere with shipments for the Persian Gulf. It is simplistic to say that Australian participation was because of an allegiance to the USA.

-Support in Afghanistan: A small but valuable contribution. Australia had condemned the Taliban and had staked out a leadership role in protecting human rights. It's activity supported the USA, but also made a mark for Australian positions on human rights and international stability.

You want the US military out of Australia. OK, go for it. I don't think the communities hosting them will support you on that, nor will Australia's defence and foreign policy experts. The US presence serves Australian interests as much as it does the USA's. I believe that technology will result in drawdowns of personnel in the near future anyway.

All that writing, trying to move the goalpost, without denying the point made: trump is losing his allies.

On 5/3/2026 at 8:08 PM, TorquayFan said:

When I started this thread many hours ago, I asked the question:-

"I wonder if any of the MAGA supporters here are repentant of their own part in this chaos ?"

It's interesting that none of the MAGA faithful have had ANYTHING to say, so far at least. So it appears that Trump's all-round parlous performance in this 2nd term, is simply indefensible.

Thanks to the many Posters who have replied, with more eloquence and detail than I. This farcical/tragic Presidency has set the World back by decades, (and we're not halfway in yet!).

You won't get anything meaningful from them beyond the usual ranting, abuse and nonsense since they are typically challenged in the logic department and follow the yeti around like a poodle no matter what garbage he spouts. Sad.

Just now, Patong2021 said:

Polls come and go especially when you pick what you want to cite and ignore the parts that do not support your political bias. The same Lowy Poll showed that 64% of Australians still report distrust in the Chinese government. The same poll had 72% of respondents saying China’s actions in the South China Sea threaten Australia’s interests. Most back cooperation, including joint patrols, with partners like the Philippines, Japan and the US, to maintain stability. You do not understand that there is a difference between constructive criticism and dislike of some US policies with a desire to sever relations. The disfavour will pass once Trump is gone, although the world should get used to the reality that the USA likes its tariffs. The Democrats were not much for free trade.

Australians didn't like China in 2020, but now they are back to kowtowing to the Chinese since China is its largest trading partner and the critical market that keeps Australians wealthy. I expect that with time, the Australians and USA relations will also improve. In international relations, enemies can become friends when the need arises. Who would have imagined that one day the Israelis, would be operating a missile defense system inside the UAE, defending Arab countries and sharing intelligence with Arab nations, but that's today's reality. And so, one day soon, Australia and the USA will be best pals again.

Your post goes at length to explain why I am wrong. It does nothing to address the questions I and many other Australians are asking.

I would not mind if Pine Gap and North West Cape were on Australian soil, provided that Australia had something tangible to show for it. We don't, apart from paper promises that can be abandoned with the next Truth Social tweet.

You may be right, good relations with America may be restored after Trump is gone. However, we are talking about here and now, where it is difficult for Australians to choose between a country which IMO does not present a threat to Australia, due to the tyranny of distance, and a president actively sabotaging trust

in treaties.

Just now, stevenl said:

All that writing, trying to move the goalpost, without denying the point made: trump is losing his allies.

What allies? You assume that he had allies. I maintain that today, the concept of allies is a false construct. Countries have mutual interests. They work together when their interests align.

Just now, Patong2021 said:

What allies? You assume that he had allies. I maintain that today, the concept of allies is a false construct. Countries have mutual interests. They work together when their interests align.

Semantics. Call it whatever you like, your post had a lot of words, moving the goalpost without denying the point made.

11 hours ago, Yagoda said:

Rage baiting is spewing lies.

The truth is the truth.

Do you think we were justified in smashing the Mullahs?

Most people don't have a big problem with the mullahs, even though you killed angry and sick, old men who were replaced by angrier and healthier younger men.

It's the hundreds of school girls we have an issue with.

Another thing is that Trump started this s**t show even after having been told that Iran would close the SOH. And he did it anyway, without any plan to counter what was so obviously coming, the demented moron.

7 hours ago, Yagoda said:

So do you deny he has big balls?

Yes. But I would like the opportunity to be proven wrong. Just one kick is all I ask for!

Just now, BLMFem said:

Most people don't have a big problem with the mullahs, even though you killed angry and sick, old men who were replaced by angrier and healthier younger men.

It's the hundreds of school girls we have an issue with.

Another thing is that Trump started this s**t show even after having been told that Iran would close the SOH. And he did it anyway, without any plan to counter what was so obviously coming, the demented moron.

Got it. You beleive Iranian propaganda which you spout any chance you get.

Just now, BLMFem said:

Yes. But I would like the opportunity to be proven wrong. Just one kick is all I ask for!

As so many world leaders have demonstrated, generally folks end up licking rather than kicking

Just now, Yagoda said:

As so many world leaders have demonstrated, generally folks end up licking rather than kicking

When Trump screeched for assistance after making a pig's ear of the Strait of Hormuz, IIRC the reaction of world leaders was "your mess. you fix it".

Just now, Lacessit said:

When Trump screeched for assistance after making a pig's ear of the Strait of Hormuz, IIRC the reaction of world leaders was "your mess. you fix it".

Thats because they have nothing to contribute. Nations that cant even project enough power to protect the oil they need.

The IDF is in the UAE helping defend them from Iranian aggresssion, they do more for the region than all the mouthy big talkers in Europe.

5 hours ago, stevenl said:

Semantics. Call it whatever you like, your post had a lot of words, moving the goalpost without denying the point made.

No. You just don't like the point, because it does not support a simplistic politically biased interpretation of world political relations. Goalposts have not changed, but times have. The great alliances created through the marriages of the European Royal Houses and agreements to carve up colonial lands are a thing of the past. The days of common cultural heritages uniting to fight a common foe have passed too. It is no different than the arrangement of sexual encounters that moved from meeting at social engagements, to hookups on apps like Tinder, Grindr, Down, Yummi, Feeld, etc. Few countries have traditional alliances. They now have co-operation undertakings and agreements when there is a defined benefit. The transition started in the decades before Trump took office.

The least woke president ever!

Edited May 5May 5 by shdmn

38 minutes ago, Yagoda said:

Thats because they have nothing to contribute. Nations that cant even project enough power to protect the oil they need.

The IDF is in the UAE helping defend them from Iranian aggresssion, they do more for the region than all the mouthy big talkers in Europe.

Not very successfully, from what is on the media.

It's your opinion, we all know what they are similar to.

From where I sit, seems to me Trump is the biggest mouth of them all.

Wake me up when the SOH is open.