Climbing Out Of Poverty? (say, Starting From A Slum Or The Paddy Field)

[Jersey_UK]

Given a recent thread about someone's sister in law wanting to "better" herself which never progressed and also my own experiances with the in-laws (specifically one surprising disappointment when it came to seizing an opportunity - maybe more later ).........I got to wandering what I would do if in "their" shoes.......

Obviously quite a few variables possible - I am thinking that the most relevent are: age, sex, education and family circumstances (married / single / kids).........and whether they already have a "farang in the family" somewhere?

But just to get the ball rolling, lets start with someone without any meaningful formal qualifications but who can read and write Thai (as being literate is normal enough in Thailand), and either grew up in a city or town very very poor, probably has worked on and off for a few years in various unskilled proffessions for low wages and long hours OR grew up in a village / farming based community and has already put more than a few years into a Padi field, also for low wages and long hours.........but either way they woke up one morning and decided that "There must be a Better Way"...............

So over to Mr Farang (of course Thais and others more than welcome!)..........What are the "Better Ways"?

[teacup]

OK I will be the first one and here is my little story

My father (thai-chinese) was a boiled egg seller, then he was a charcoal seller during his mid 20s. His life had changed when he met my mom (thai). My father was educated thru the temple school until the 4th grade, but my mom got lucky a bit with 6th grade education under her belt – also from the temple school. In order to better life for the family, my father worked hard with long hours, but also had begged the neighbour (who’s the teacher) to teach him how to read and write better.

Anyway to make a long story short,….. thru self discipline, hard works, long hours, grabbing any opportunities that came his way and using them to their most advantages, he’s later on (during his 30s-60s) became one of the most successful business people in BKK. He owned many many businesses throughout BKK and its fringe.

These’re some of his assets and resume…

-a construction equipments rental shop & a licensed gun shop in china town,

-a financial and trust company at SapanKwai-Paholyothin area….dealing in realestate –land development

-numberous parcels of land…from Ladprao 1-4 area, in which later on he sold Ladprao 3-4 off to Mr Chokchai, but had kept Ladprao 1-2 lands which also named after our family surname and still are ‘till today.

- 3 Mercedes (green, blue, and ugly yellow gold color), 1 blue Volkswagen van

- 1 wife, 3-4 mianois, with 7 kids all together (5 of 7 were educated in England and myself – in the states)

My point is that

There are no exact “better ways” to improve your current situation, if you are poor.

I think the two most important factors are ….the person's decision of whether or not they want to get out of the poverty ,….and how much and initiative they have in their heart, soul, and bone to work their way out of the poverty. There are plenty of poor people who are poor because they have chosen to be poor. It’s the same for the rich, they have their wealth because they have decided to have/want it, not because life always was nice to them.

Have you heard of the phrase

"Give a man a fish and feed him for a day, teach him to fish and feed him for a lifetime."

Given opportunities. Those that want out of their situation will be grateful and take them. Those that don't will be upset because they have to work to get what they want.

I'm rambling far too long, so will make myself disappear now

Edited September 14, 2007 by teacup

[jumnien]

Some people want to get out of poverty and some people want to get into it. Where I come from poverty is a spiritual goal to be sought after.

[Jingthing]

Before we go crazy with Horatio Alger myths, lets get some basics down:

You won't get rich working most jobs, you have to own businesses and/or assets.

Most people who wish to get out of poverty and work very hard will never get out of poverty, especially in poor countries. The world doesn't work that way. If it did, where would all the cheap labor (most of the world) come from?

I do have a relative who grew up dirt poor but he became well educated and became one of the richest men in the world. I think those stories are inspiring and interesting, but rare, and it is silly to assume that anyone who tries will have the same results.

Edited September 15, 2007 by Jingthing

[chownah]

I guess this thread is not about getting rich...it is about getting out of poverty. To do this you need skills. Learn something....pay attention to what is going on. Don't drink or smoke. Start a bank account and put your money there so you are not tempted to spend it for stupid things....alot of poor people get money from time to time (a temporary job) but end up spending the money foolishly. Always be well groomed...even old clothes can be kept clean. Again, learn something about some kind of work....get an education...or if you think you've got an education already then get some other kind of education...one that will help you get a better job.

Also, poverty is not the end of the world....it often just means that you need to be more creative about how to entertain yourself.....poverty is to a great extent a state of mind.

[peter991]

How do you define poverty? To me it means not have the essentials: food, clothing and shelter. I have seen lots of POOR people in Thailand - but I have not seen any people suffering from POVERTY.

There's food on the side of the roads in the country and the reason monks collect alms is to distribute to poor people. I have not seen anybody STARVING in Thailand.

I have seen some rudimentry housing - but it's enough to keep the rain and sun off people.

In the Issan village where I had a small rice farm, I had sufficient water to grow at least two crops of rice a year, rather than just waiting for the monsoon to flood the paddies. When I asked the villagers to work to grow 2 crops of rice a year, they looked at me in amazement. They could not see WHY they should work harder. Their answer: 'We have enough money from our one crop a year. We do not need more money.'

Peter

[Suszzy]

do have a relative who grew up dirt poor but he became well educated and became one of the richest men in the world. I think those stories are inspiring and interesting, but rare, and it is silly to assume that anyone who tries will have the same results.

Exactly,how about a touch of luck?

i believe even you work so hard but without luck..you're not going to make it big.

you needs luck in whatever you do!

i'd say luck plays quite an important part in human life!!

[Farma]

3 examples, all girls from poor farming backgrounds with large families.

They studied hard at school, received scholarships to Chula Uni. All took medical degrees.

One owns a number of condos and a large dental clinic in Pattaya. She made her money putting diamonds in tourists’ teeth.

Another has a very nice house and her own clinic in Bangkok.

The 3rd is a senior public servant and runs a number of successful businesses.

Others I know worked as shop assistants. During lulls in customers they studied and attained degrees. They’ve transferred into higher paying government employment.

Edited September 15, 2007 by Farma

[Ricardo]

A cynic might suggest marrying a farang as a way out of material-poverty !

I would agree with the earlier poster who said that working for somebody else is never going to make you rich, however it IS an excellent way of gaining training & experience, while slowly saving the small amount of capital that you will need, when you eventually do start your own business. That's how I did it myself !

Things to avoid :-

1) Wasting your life watching TV-soaps & game-shows.

2) Smoking or drinking, until you are rich enough, to afford them.

3) Marrying too young - hormones keep poor people in poverty !

4) Believing everything said by poo-yais or government.

5) Buying lottery-tickets, too unsure a way to riches, and it reduces your savings.

Any other suggestions ?

[Neeranam]

I think you'll find that most success stories in Bangkok, especially with the Chinese, involve criminal activities.

"no effort, no luck"

Edited September 15, 2007 by Neeranam

[soundman]

For the average Thai to "climb out of poverty" they would have to develop a good work ethic first & completely banish the "mai bpen rai" attitude.

IMO the "mai bpen rai" attitude is just an excuse used by the poor to stay poor. The well off certainly don't have that attitude when it comes to business dealings.

Soundman.

[geriatrickid]

Exactly,how about a touch of luck?

i believe even you work so hard but without luck..you're not going to make it big.

you needs luck in whatever you do!

i'd say luck plays quite an important part in human life!!

We make our own luck.

[lazeeboy]

Exactly,how about a touch of luck?

i believe even you work so hard but without luck..you're not going to make it big.

you needs luck in whatever you do!

i'd say luck plays quite an important part in human life!!

We make our own luck.

some of the happiest thais i have met didnt have a pot to piss in ,no worries ,no stress ,help thy family and they help me attitude,what they never had they never miss ,sometimes this way of living beats the rat race we call the west...........

[Aussietraveller]

I will use the example of my wifes family.

In my eyes they are poor. They do not have a lot of money in the bank.

They do own their home in the Village. It is 5 years old, quite nice.

They own several farms.

They do not owe one Baht to the banks.

They have a limited education, and do not aspire to great wealth.

They are happy with what they have.

They never go hungry, and probably live better that 90% of their village.

They live off several thousand Baht a month, and live quite well. They do not want for anything.

They are not in poverty by any means.

My wife and i have discussed it and the best thing that we feel that we can do to help them, is to buy their house off them in the village.

We will pay market price. (my wife would get the house anyway in years to come)

The money will be put in a secure investment for them, providing a monthly income to suppliment what they have now.

They can live in the house free for the rest of their lives.

We will pay all of the Mtce cost etc. for the house.

[LinkPopularity]

for anybody, not just to get out of poverty ... my father learned this to me when I was 18 and going to college ...

I had to keep exact account of all the money I was spending, it didn't take long for me to realize how much money I was wasting on unnecessary sh!t, try it yourself for just 1 week ... it's amazing how much money you can save if you just don't waste it ... by the way, at that age I was also reading a lot of Buddha books, if some more Thais would take the effort to become true Buddhists, they'll be rich after reading just a few of his teachings; it's all in the mind !

so, best way to get out of poverty : read Buddha !

[britmaveric]

Lot harder for an individual to get ahead when you have to support the whole family. I think until this concept goes on the way side - I think most will struggle unless its by shear luck - being in the right place at the right time.

[TAWP]

Ii would send my daughters to work in Bangkok or Pattaya and tell them to send atleast 50% of the paycheck, and a new years bonus, home every month. And then drink and play guitarr. Then I would wait for election-time and pocket as much as I could from all candidates while voting for the one saying they would give me more money from someone elses hard work. And take government lones to buy a car. And drink and play some more guitarr.

[meemiathai]

Before we go crazy with Horatio Alger myths, lets get some basics down:

You won't get rich working most jobs, you have to own businesses and/or assets.

Most people who wish to get out of poverty and work very hard will never get out of poverty, especially in poor countries. The world doesn't work that way. If it did, where would all the cheap labor (most of the world) come from?

I do have a relative who grew up dirt poor but he became well educated and became one of the richest men in the world. I think those stories are inspiring and interesting, but rare, and it is silly to assume that anyone who tries will have the same results.

Nice, simple and clear! But you have to accept the fact that most people don't have the brains to understand your post!

How can I run as fast as Michael Johnson? Oh you can if you choose to! Just try!

How can I have skills as good as Ronaldinho? Oh you can if you choose to! Just try!

How can I be as intelligent as Einstein? Oh you can if you choose to! Just try!

How can I be US president? Oh you can if you choose to! Just try!

[meemiathai]

A cynic might suggest marrying a farang as a way out of material-poverty !

I would agree with the earlier poster who said that working for somebody else is never going to make you rich, however it IS an excellent way of gaining training & experience, while slowly saving the small amount of capital that you will need, when you eventually do start your own business. That's how I did it myself !

There are a lot of people who don't know how to do business. They are born not-to-do-business types. They lose! Either being too honest or due to wrong decisions.

[meemiathai]

Things to avoid :-

1) Wasting your life watching TV-soaps & game-shows.

2) Smoking or drinking, until you are rich enough, to afford them.

3) Marrying too young - hormones keep poor people in poverty !

4) Believing everything said by poo-yais or government.

5) Buying lottery-tickets, too unsure a way to riches, and it reduces your savings.

Any other suggestions ?

6)avoid getting wet while jumping into the sea

7)avoid having an erection while seeing a sexy naked woman

8)avoid getting hit by a car standing in the middle of Asoke/Sukhumvit

9)avoid blinking if a fly flies into your eyes

Anything else?

[TAWP]

Avoid reading your posts.

[meemiathai]

Avoid reading your posts.

Do we still have the "ignore" button?

[Jimjim]

- 1 wife, 3-4 mianois,

Success is measured in Thailand by how many Mercedes and how many mia nois one has. I'll be going for two of each.

[blizzard]

how much does a low level mia noi cost?

i might want one..........lol.

to show my financial muscle........lol

seriously, make sure you pick rice faster and in greater quantities than your peers. isnt saying paddy workers are poor a bit condescending, by the way.

Edited September 15, 2007 by blizzard

[wasabi]

Lot harder for an individual to get ahead when you have to support the whole family. I think until this concept goes on the way side - I think most will struggle unless its by shear luck - being in the right place at the right time.

The poverty cycle is unbreakable for many poor families due the fact if one is moderately successful the rest of the family will find a way to spend all of the money no matter how much is earned. Thailand's collectivism is appealing on some levels but not on the financial advancement front. Ironically selfishness is more likely to lead to the betterment of all as if one is given sufficient opportunity to better themselves than they are better equipped to help others. People need a grace period to get over the hump so to speak. Unfortunately as soon as a baht is earned in the live for today poor families 2 baht are spent. Its like a bunch of crabs where if one starts to climb out of the bucket the other crabs pull it back in. I know one girl in particular who makes decent wages and is steadily earning more but doesn't have a dime in savings due to this. At the end of her road, she'll be broke and her daughter will be supporting her.

In short there is no escape and the uplifting tales of rages to riches are generally a myth. The rich get richer and the poor gets poorer. It's the law of compounding and it works both ways.

[roietjimmy]

Poverty like beauty is a defined in the eye of the beholder. If a person is contented with their material wealth, as Peter991 points out, they will not have any incentive to gain more. On the other hand, a person who is discontented with their material wealth, no matter how much they have, may consider themselves poor and conclude "there must be a better way".

The bottom line here is to what degree one is dedicated to making the changes in their life to achieve their goals. The world is full of people who want more but lack the drive to make the changes needed. I am familiar with the "sister in law" thread and while the brother in law (a Thai) has made the changes, his sister in law does not seem to have the drive needed to change her situation. That is, she is content to complain but not change her ways even in the most fundamental ways. Change is something no one is comfortable with so consequently they come up with a variety of reasons why they cannot change their situation. These include, I am too old, I am uneducated, I have too many children, I don't know how to change, I have no access to information I need, I need more money to change, ad infinitum. As Jinthing points out working harder doing the same thing you have always done will only result in getting the same thing you have always gotten. However, work hard at changing your habits!

As the OP points out there are many variables related to each individual (gender, education, family commitments, children, etc.) because of this it is impossible to be specific on what I would do if in their shoes. There are however general things/traits that can be employed to better ones self.

- Commit to making drastic changes to what you have been doing. Without the fire in the belly to change, nothing will.

- Educate yourself. I don't mean this in the sense of more formal education because this is not a likely or available option for most. Learning from others is probably the best way. Find someone you respect (hopefully in a legal business) in the village or elsewhere that is in your mind "successful". Watch, listen and learn what they have done and do daily to acheive success. Then adopt their behaviors as much as you can.

- Understand that you will have to make sacrifices. No matter how much or little you are earning, you will need to have some money if you want to do be "successful". No matter how poor you are, there surely is something you can sacrifice. Alcohol, tabacco, lottery tickets, soda pop, junk food, gambling are just a few. If you have only the ability to afford the barest of needs then the only option is to find work no matter how menial to earn money to put aside/save.

- Given you lack formal education/credentials nor do you have a specific job skill, you should be looking to start your own business. Start small as per teacups "boiled egg seller" and don't expect to be rich overnight.

- If you put all your effort into the business, have a product that people want, continue to save money from the profits, and grow the business slowly and smartly you will reach a point of "success". There are countless cases of people raising themselves out of "poverty" if they are frugal, dedicated, and take advantage of opportunities for growth. I need only drive 10 minutes in any direction from the village I live in to see hundreds of examples of "success".

For those who may think my comments naive, the poor do have a much more difficult time than the rich in reaching success. They are not connected to the "right" people to sponsor business startups. They often lack enough education to "think" in terms of smart decisions. They lack in understanding fundamental business practices, (i.e. sales and profit are not the same thing). They can be subjected to harassment from criminal elements. They will be pressured by family members and others in their villages to "share" their success. And finally, few will really make the changes and sacrifices needed to succeed because they clearly don't have the desperation and consequently the drive to do so. Given all these disadvantages, only a few will make it but some will!

Edit- BTW, be wise enough to know when you have reached the "level of success" you want or you will spend the rest of your life sacrificing and never really enjoy the fruits of your labor!!

Edited September 15, 2007 by roietjimmy

[meemiathai]

I still don't see anything substantial enough being pointed out.

People are saying to stop this "Alcohol, tabacco, lottery tickets, soda pop, junk food, gambling are just a few.". My sister in law doesn't do any of these.

People keep saying to learn something.

LEARN WHAT?

Please don't just dream like there are plenty to do!

Edited September 15, 2007 by meemiathai

[Briggsy]

Sex education and contraception.

[think_too_mut]

Poverty like beauty is a defined in the eye of the beholder. If a person is contented with their material wealth, as Peter991 points out, they will not have any incentive to gain more. On the other hand, a person who is discontented with their material wealth, no matter how much they have, may consider themselves poor and conclude "there must be a better way".

The bottom line here is to what degree one is dedicated to making the changes in their life to achieve their goals.

Yet another dreamer.

Poverty is a statistical thing, there must be one and it defines what being poor means.

Bono (of U2 rock band) propagates that each cow in EU zone is subsidized 2 US$ a day and uses it in his campaigns to better the African continent.

Half of the planet's population have never made a phone call.

As for "goals to achieve" - it's as simple as this: most of the poor want their cake. Not to learn the recipe to bake it whenever and wherever they want.

[think_too_mut]

Poverty like beauty is a defined in the eye of the beholder.

Is that right?

Here is the "eye of the beholder":