Oppostion From Thai Teachers ?

[Canada]

I am curious. Is there anyone out there that has run into opposition from Thai teachers? If so...Why? What did it look like? What was the eventual outcome? Thanks.

[paulsmithson]

Reason -- I was recently offered a teaching job via a friend in Bangkok. She is Thai and teaches English ( and her command of the language is excellent-far better than some of the so called European or other English teachers I have met. I refused as I have no wish to work in that job ( how can you call it a profession?)

We discuused my refusal and she told me that they were offering a salary of 32,000- baht for native english speaker whilst her salary at age 50- with many years experience was 29,000 baht.

[PeaceBlondie]

Paul is suggesting that some Thai teachers (who ought to know better) sometimes complain that our TEFL gigs as native speakers (without a degree in teaching English) are too high. They should realize that Thai teachers of English and native, farang teachers of English have almost nothing in common, and it's like comparing tang mo to lamyai.

Some Thai teachers don't exactly 'oppose' us but they are shy that, even with more than 15 years of teaching basic English, they can't speak English well and they teach it very poorly (unlike the example Paul gives). Some oppose us because they suspect we're yet another poorly qualified or unqualified short-term failure that will leave before the term ends, after causing trouble and not teaching well.

Most of the 40-odd Thai teachers of foreign language I worked with were fine folks, well cultured like old yoghurt, who didn't oppose good teachers, but pretty much left us alone.

[mopenyang]

Reason -- I was recently offered a teaching job via a friend in Bangkok. She is Thai and teaches English ( and her command of the language is excellent-far better than some of the so called European or other English teachers I have met. I refused as I have no wish to work in that job ( how can you call it a profession?)

We discuused my refusal and she told me that they were offering a salary of 32,000- baht for native english speaker whilst her salary at age 50- with many years experience was 29,000 baht.

Please don't judge all English teachers in Thailand by your circle of associates. There are professional teachers here who are very well qualified by education and experience for the job they are doing and who understand theirs is very much a profession, not just a job.

Have you ever considered painting with a more narrow brush?

[Canada]

I am not looking to solicit complaints or Thai teacher bashing....just comments about experiences you may have had. I understand that the teachers that I work with have many years of school/university combined with experience teaching. I respect them for that.

[wangsuda]

The only resentment I've seen comes from the money issue. Some teachers resent the fact that I, on the surface, earn more than they do. What they fail to realize is:

1. I am a fully qualified teacher from America, specializing in the teaching of English language and literature. This has caused a bit of jealousy.

2. The pay. Thai teachers may say they make 25,000 baht per month, but do they include their housing allowance, their travel allowance, their civil-service raises, their ability to get low-interest loans on cars and houses, health insurance, etc. In short, their money obtains a lot more than our money. Thai teachers generally don't take that into consideration.

With that said, the Thai teachers who do take that into consideration wonder why I do this job here! Additionally, they have no resentment towards me. We work together very well.

[Scott]

I work a little more in the administrative side and yes, I do run into the problem--for me it seems like a lot--but in all honesty, it's a small % of the problems. Several factors are in play that cause problems:

1. There is the cultural difference. Are cultural values are different from theirs and this sometimes creates a problem. Examples of this are: teacher's sitting on the desk, drinking coffee in the classroom etc. Even something as "minor" as sitting on a chair and having students speak to you--in which case the students head is higher than yours and is thus disrespectful can cause discomfort.

2. Differences in style and approach. Some schools want everything done in unison, reading, speaking etc. Some foreign teachers prefer a bit more individuality. Some schools want only rote answers. "How are you?" "I'm fine, thank you and you?" So, occasionally everyone gets thrown for a loop when someone says "How are you, today?" and the students answer with "Today is Monday." Your wrong because you asked the question wrong.

3. Discipline is another issue. Some teachers are seen as too strict or too lenient, but both sides get into trouble if they discipline students. Discipline is, perhaps the touchiest issue.

4. A general overall discounting of the importance of what you are doing. The general concensus of a lot of Thai teachers is that what we do doesn't really count. Often it's not a part of their Thai grades, it doesn't usually help with their English grammar memorization lessons and turning one tense into another and making the active voice the passive voice, so it's not important.

5. Jealousy and normal human characteristics also play a part. Some people just don't get along with other people.

The best course, I've found, is to admit that they are right and I am wrong and to thank them profusely for pointing out my numerous weaknesses. I then go about doing exactly what I have done in the past in exactly the same way I was doing it and usually they tell me how much better I am now!

6. By the way, I've never come across the issue of money as being a problem (doesn't mean it's not, but I've never come across it).

Of course, sometimes they have a valid point and I do follow their advice.

[Ijustwannateach]

A good thread, and good responses.

Most of the time the opposition will be based on personal issues, not abstract concepts (such as money). Though money, benefits, etc. may be used as ammunition, the initial animosity will be personal in nature. That's why it's so important not to offend anyone and to tread very carefully in a new job until you know the political landscape (even a sketchy acquaintance with it can take months to develop).

It's a frequent misunderstanding that higher salaries mean that foreign teachers are paid over-well. What is not so well understood (or talked about in these animosities) is that senior Thai teachers have access to a great deal of so-called tea money (corruption money) from students, parents, supply companies, book companies, and school event promoters; not to mention the possibilities of private tuition. It does add up. You can also be sure that the 32,000B paid by the school to the teacher is substantially less than what the parents are paying the school- and where does the rest go?

Finally, I'd like to agree with Mopenyang about the quality of many teachers here and gently remind everyone that it is not permitted in the teacher's forum to denigrate foreign teachers in Thailand as a group.

"Steven"

[otherstuff1957]

I have occasionally run into Thai teachers who didn't seem to like Farangs. I simply ignored them, they would ignore me in return and everyone would be happy! Much more frequently, Thai teachers would regard us as irrelevent, or would be too shy about their lack of English to speak to us.

I have always just showed up, done my job, avoided politics and done my best not to cause any trouble of inconvenience for my fellow teachers - Thai or Farang. This policy has worked well so far.

[alaina]

The only problems that I've ever had with Thai teachers were encouraged by the Thai administration above them. At one school, Thai teachers were told to spy on us to see if we left early and things like that. I've seen some pretty silly and petty things happen but when there is conflict, but both sides normally contribute.

Once a very pregnant Thai teacher was telling a group of foreign teachers that she would not be in next week. When they asked why, she said that she was having her baby... the teachers immediately asked her when she would be back to teach her class. No congratulations, nothing.

Mostly, Thai teachers have been really sweet to me, always showing appreciation by buying food and gifts (and that can make me feel badly since I do make more than them.) I manage a few Thais now and they are really easy to deal with and are overjoyed when you show them some appreciation and thanks. I've heard of problems other teachers have had with Thai teachers, but I haven't had many at all.

[Jimmyd]

I could write a book about the bad experiences I've had with Thai teachers--but then I could write another book about bad experiences with non-Thai teachers.

[garro]

A problem I have is teachers sucking me into 'office politics'.

One of the teachers is friends with myself and my wife and spends a lot of time in our house.

She recently fell out with our head.

She told eveyone that I too had a problem with him; which was a complete lie.

This is not the first time this sort of thing has happened.

[PeaceBlondie]

A problem I have is teachers sucking me into 'office politics'.

One of the teachers is friends with myself and my wife and spends a lot of time in our house.

She recently fell out with our head.

She told eveyone that I too had a problem with him; which was a complete lie.

This is not the first time this sort of thing has happened.

garro, I'm sorry to hear that a 'friend' has spread lies about what you say. She is not a friend, and you might choose to tell her to stop telling lies about you. You could go to your boss and say it is a lie, and if other teachers accuse you of being opposed to the head of your department, say it is a lie. Not to say that your friend is lying, but that the statement about what you said is not true. Liars who lie about you are not your friends.

[garro]

Thanks PB, it is a village school and there is a lot of tension at the moment because of threats to close it down.

Not enough student.

The head is new and my 'friend' was passed-over when he was unexpectedly appointed.

She expects me to show loyality to her because I'm a friend.

I am helping the head with some coursework he is doing in postgraduate English so it should be OK.

He actually is a bit of a <deleted>.

[Ijustwannateach]

You have to be careful how Thai teachers might use you politically (which is one good reason not to get too close to any of them, unfortunately). Most of them are trapped in their jobs forever and cannot be fired, so when the animosities start they last for years- to the point of teachers not being willing to share offices and "camping" at desks in other rooms. Since your job as a foreigner is vulnerable to ANY side, it would be madness to "choose sides," but that's what friendships are usually about- so it's best to steer clear. I would put some obvious distance between yourself and this "friend" at work to make it clear to other "sides" that you're not a target. Good luck.

[Murf]

I have occasionally run into Thai teachers who didn't seem to like Farangs. I simply ignored them, they would ignore me in return and everyone would be happy! Much more frequently, Thai teachers would regard us as irrelevent, or would be too shy about their lack of English to speak to us.

I have always just showed up, done my job, avoided politics and done my best not to cause any trouble of inconvenience for my fellow teachers - Thai or Farang. This policy has worked well so far.

I have a Thai teacher who sits in the class with me now for Mattayom 5.

I know she doesn't like me and because of that i dont like her. I never talk or speak to her unless i need to, and she does the same. Seems to work fine, but I am always weary of what she might be scheaming up.

[pauleddy]

I work at a 'leading' large educational institution. I have a western MBA (among other quals) and have taught HRM and Organisational Behaviour. I have been involved (for what it's worth) in consultancy: going in to companies and analysing their problems (in the USA).

I could write a book about what I have seen in the education system here. There are huge cultural and other differences. I will try to summarize one or two issues, although a major thread could be started up to address all of the issues.

Thai students are some of the worst in Asia at learning English, and perhaps other subjects. Studies have shown this. The education system in schools does not allow creative and individual thinking, drawing inferences, synthesis etc. Learning is rote-based and wooden. When kids go to uni here, the mentality continues. Of course, you always get wunderkindern, the 1% who win prizes and who are gifted. You find them in any country. But the masses just plod on. They just go through the motions.

Corruption in many forms is endemic. In country Rajabhats (lower grade local unis), teachers sell photocopies of books to students and pocket the money (I hear). At all levels, there are many other scams, including making 'donations' to get your kid into the right school. There are stories of teachers selling exam answers too. Among the kids, cheating is rife and shameless. Homework essays are copied from internet sites. Exam room cheating is almost the norm. Copying from other kids or your shirt sleeve is fine. It is a badge of honour to 'beat the system'. Few of the kids do enough real and constructive learning anyway during the term, so some degree of cramming or cheating, or else other 'winging it', are normal.

In Thai society, superficiality rules over substance. It is a culture of presentation. Trinkets and show are important in universities as well. That you have a Beamer/Mercedes and a PhD (or that you are on the way) are important, more important than your personal integrity or abilities as a teacher. In fact, any Thai with connections and money can get a Master's or PhD. Unfortunately, many.. NOT all.. Thai university teachers (even with PhDs) have a relatively poor grasp of English, considering the ranks they hold (Assoc Prof etc.). I have Thai colleagues with PhDs who come to me asking about placing a comma in the correct place. Many have limited classroom skills too. I have witnessed Thai teachers who have a very laid-back approach to class teaching (there are, of course, farangs like this too).

In general, experienced farang teachers get used and abused as it suits the Thais. If there is difficult or complex editing to be done, or a heavy grammar question to resolve, or an advanced class of foreign graduate students to be taught, the farang will do it. But, the farang is not usually asked for his/her opinion about other important matters. Policy meetings and board meetings do not include farang teachers, which is a shame, as the Thais could benefit from the insights of those with management experience and worldly-wisdom. Most Thai managers in education would stare at the wall if you mentioned Peter Drucker, Herzberg, The Learning Organisation or even Taylorism. Management education might as well be on the Moon here. Farangs are resented as a necessary evil, to be rolled out to teach and to edit difficult theses.

Where is this leading? Off-topic? No. Overall, Thai teachers of English are a product of their system. Educated and articulate farang can seem, or actually constitute, a threat. When I am being 'persuasive', I can be quite assertive too. Assertive good, aggressive bad, I was taught. Here, there is a great deal of clucking and saving face, but positive assertiveness??????? Frowned upon too.

As a native speaker and academic, I get differing reactions from Thais. Some are quite paranoid, maybe that I will embarrass them. Some are resentful cos' I earn more money, and cos' some outside users of our services INSIST on natives, even if the Thai teacher is highly qualified. Some are fine, once they see that I like my job and I work hard.

I sometimes reverse the roles. If Thai were generally required to be taught in London or New York, and I were a western teacher of Thai....how would I feel if a horde of smart, educated native Thai teachers of Thai turned up? Maybe my emotional response would be negative too. For any reason. Who knows. I know that the comparison is unsound and unscientific, maybe, but I sometimes dwell on it.

PEd

Edited September 22, 2007 by pauleddy

[southerndog]

The thai teachers at my school want NOTHING to do with Farang teachers.

I would like to address the issue of Farang teachers getting paid more.

We get paid more due to the economic laws of supply and demand. (Mainly supply.) The teachers should realize that they cannot fill spots by paying farangs 8k baht/month when we could go back to our own country and easily earn that in one day?

A gallon of water is cheaper than a a roll of mentos, or a vile of crack. I don't think anyone would argue which is more important to your life, one just costs more to produce than the other.

Do they realize that hookers earn more because there are fewer people willing to do the job, and customers are willing to pay more?

[toptuan]

One huge area of opposition I get from Thai teachers and department heads is regarding giving grades at the end of the term.

For example, if I fail a student for attending less than 50% of my classes (the school attendance "policy" is much higher: 80%, which is almost universally ignored here), I know I have a huge battle ahead of me with the student, his/her parents, my fellow Thai teachers, and administration. Everyone wants you to throw the student a couple of rote-learning make-up assignments and then pass them. This is at the university level--bachelor and master's degree students. Over the years, I refuse to budge, and it has provided me my greatest battles to date.

Sadly, an amazing number of students' "F's" get mysteriously changed to D's and C's in the computer system after I have entered my final grades, failing them. Others tell me that this often involves pay-offs from the parent to the administration. Word has gotten around, and it seems that most of the lazy students with wealthy parents try to avoid my classes like the plague. I end up with students who really want to learn. Not a bad trade-off, really.

[southerndog]

I was going to start a thread "Things that are less of a joke than the Thai educational system."

1.) Britney Spears

2.) The Arizona Cardinals

3.) Jamaican Bobsled Team

Anyway, you get the point.

I just started teaching in a Thai school, and what a culture shock it has been.

The one thing that anyone teaching here (not in an international school) has to realize is that the kids in your class are not students, they are customers. You give them what THEY want. Good grades, let them cheat, give no discipline, and let them walk all over you, and you will fit in just fine. (Let me say that this is no fault of the students. It all lies on the administration, who just want $$ and happy idiots.) Realize that this means little stress, and little work for you. LOL.

Just smile and realize its not your problem, and there is NOTHING you can do about it.

[KhaoNiaw]

Among the kids, cheating is rife and shameless. Homework essays are copied from internet sites. Exam room cheating is almost the norm. Copying from other kids or your shirt sleeve is fine. It is a badge of honour to 'beat the system'. Few of the kids do enough real and constructive learning anyway during the term, so some degree of cramming or cheating, or else other 'winging it', are normal.

A couple of comments here. The many sites selling homework essays were not set up to satisfy demand from Thailand. The UK government recently announced a move back towards more exam-based evaluation as so many kids were found to be copy-and-pasting assignments from the Internet or getting their parents to do their homework. And as you pointed out:

Of course, you always get wunderkindern, the 1% who win prizes and who are gifted. You find them in any country. But the masses just plod on. They just go through the motions.

Many valid points have been made in the posts here but, to add something to the discussion rather than just add to the list of problems, I'd like to play devil's advocate to some extent.

When western educators describe the scene in Thailand, it is almost invariably negative. Especially in the TEFL field, lines tend to be drawn along the lines of 'us' (the native speakers) and 'them' (the non-native speakers). Those in the 'us' group know what we're doing, we're familiar with the theories, the 'best' practices, and, in the case of TEFL, we actually 'own' the language. 'They' don't know and don't seem to care in the way 'we' do. 'They' sell exam questions, 'they' pass students who aren't up to the mark, 'they' are happy for students to cheat on exams.

How about the students? They are perhaps quiet, passive, reluctant to ask questions or challenge teachers, only want to memorize, aren't interested in learning. Apart from that 1%, of course.

In other words, these teachers and students fail miserably when it comes to being judged by criteria important in the west. It could all be put right by training or reprogramming these teachers and students to become much more western in their habits and outlook.

Thai students fail to do well at English because, despite 'our' best efforts as native speakers armed with the best and latest ideas and methodology, they just won't behave as western students do. 'Student-centered' means forcing western ideals and values on students, not looking for ways of teaching and learning that can accomodate local values and students' own approaches to learning. 'Our' approach is correct. 'They' are the ones who are failing.

In cases where I've seen direct conflict between Thai and foreign teachers, it's often where the foreigners sees themselves as superior to Thai colleagues (and anyone else come to that), or perhaps stems from just over-enthusiasm in their evangelizing zeal for how things should be done.

Ultimately, problems in the education system here will only be resolved from the inside. Thai teachers, in particular, need to be encouraged and given the freedom to develop and experiment with approaches that may produce results.

Edited September 23, 2007 by KhaoNiaw

[southerndog]

Khao,

Are we being know it all westerners when we say :

"You really should have a ground for that shower box, you could get electrocuted and die?"

"Sometimes, its a good idea to drive one way on a one way road."

"Its probably not a bad idea to have tap water that's actually potable."

I'm sorry, but these things really aren't arguable.

And neither is "Can you please ask these kids to stop playing football while I'm trying to teach this class."

Perhaps "Rote learning isn't the best way to learn English" is arguable. There's a difference between being asked to be a part of a system and adjust, as every system will have aspects you don't like. Compared to coming on, expecting to further yourself as a person and professionally, and realizing there is no system, there is no concern about the students education, and being expected to look the other way.

[KhaoNiaw]

Khao,

Are we being know it all westerners when we say :

"You really should have a ground for that shower box, you could get electrocuted and die?"

"Sometimes, its a good idea to drive one way on a one way road."

"Its probably not a bad idea to have tap water that's actually potable."

I'm sorry, but these things really aren't arguable.

And neither is "Can you please ask these kids to stop playing football while I'm trying to teach this class."

I don't think anything I said suggests that I would find any of those things acceptable, but then neither would most Thai teachers I've worked with.

Perhaps "Rote learning isn't the best way to learn English" is arguable. There's a difference between being asked to be a part of a system and adjust, as every system will have aspects you don't like. Compared to coming on, expecting to further yourself as a person and professionally, and realizing there is no system, there is no concern about the students education, and being expected to look the other way.

As I said, my post above was intended to play devil's advocate. I know that there are many things wrong with the system and problems with people within the system - but I'm also trying to point out that a lot of the criticism that is made often seems to come with the implication that we know better and it would all be fine if it was done our way. (I'm often guilty of that myself).

In particular, I feel that the western-based TEFL industry has a tendency to believe that it provides all the answers, and the methodology it is based on are intended to promote values that are highly valued by in western culture.

And that is something that I find can be a fundamental cause of conflict between Thai and foreign teachers.

Edited September 23, 2007 by KhaoNiaw

[PeaceBlondie]

What, are we going to admit that prathom students in Ayuttyha don't need to know about Bengali shopkeepers in Kensington? And those commercial college kids I taught, using an American ESL textbook, don't need to know how Maria Consuela and Thich Baht got their driver's licenses in Des Moines, measured in pounds and inches?

Let's see if the Thai Ph.D.'s in TEFL can write a Thai EFL textbook that will rightfully replace Headway and Let's Go . Let's see if Ajarns Sarapanacha and Kopikorn can teach a class of 48 pubescent students by walking around the class, asking questions to which the answer is neither "arai nah?" or "mai kojai." Let's see if the MoE can mandate open ended questions where the student fills in the blank, having to know without a clue that the past tense of 'speak' is 'spoke.' Let's all use examples of how to ask questions of tourists other than, "Do you like Thai food?" Let's stop complaining that probably no Thai ever won any Nobel prize, and start teaching to produce some laureates.

Hey there little Somchai, what is the formula for the area of a circle in Thailand? Lek, what's the future tense for "Sally goes to Krungthep"?

[toptuan]

asking questions to which the answer is neither "arai nah?" or "mai kojai."

That's koW jai, Mr. PB. Where the heck did you learn your Thai????

[PeaceBlondie]

asking questions to which the answer is neither "arai nah?" or "mai kojai."

That's koW jai, Mr. PB. Where the heck did you learn your Thai????

What? I don't know. I can't even say "I don't speak Thai."

[Jimmyd]

I work at a 'leading' large educational institution. I have a western MBA (among other quals) and have taught HRM and Organisational Behaviour.

...post pruned for brevity's sake...

PEd

Very thoughtful post, some interesting ideas. Thanks.

[Canada]

I must have have offended this one teacher who sees herself as my superior. I haven't got a clue what I did. I go to work, I care, I teach, I am careful to not offend and to not to have many opinions; especially about this system of teaching english. I have been teaching 27 classes a week. She increased my load to 33, and has been a ----for about three weeks now. During one of my classes last Friday, she asked on the side if I was going to continue to teach next term. I said I wasn't sure, that we needed to talk. She turned around and announced to my class that this was my last day teaching at this school, that I would not be returning next term to teach. I officially quit the job at the end of the day.

This has been extremely difficult from the start. The school has lived up to none of their promises. There has been an extreme lack of support for a new teacher who is under qualified. What I can't figure out is; why did they ask me to teach here, knowing my lack of experience and qualifications? And I guess the other question is; what did I do?

All in all it has been a great learning experience. For me more so than the students. I have learned a lot about the Thais and the Thai education system. I am not a rocket scientist, but it doesn't require one to know that something is not quite right here; regarding the system and the students. They are are more than not interested. They refuse to learn. The 90% incapacitate the 10% that do want to learn. Really it is a sad situation.

Fortunately for me, my stay here is not funded by the school.

[Ijustwannateach]

If you have a work permit, make sure that you file for/sue for the severance you're owed.

[Manchester]

If you have a work permit, make sure that you file for/sue for the severance you're owed.

Why? He / she resigned.