How Rich Thais View Poor

[t.s]

Canada, and Holland are places where for example prostitution is legalized and licensed. I applaud the Canadians and Dutch for their enlightened attitudes towards the important services that their Guest Relations Workers perform. People should not look down on Guest Relations Workers!

Even in liberal Holland things are changing:

Mr Cohen believes the legalisation of prostitution in the Netherlands seven years ago hasn't had the desired effect. Many prostitutes have not become "ordinary employees" or self-employed businesswomen, but are still exploited by pimps. The mayor is therefore calling for a ban on pimping.

Rest of the article here:

http://www.radionetherlands.nl/currentaffairs/ams070921mc

prostitution is legal in canada? since when?

edit: just read the laws, interesting. i did not know that

Edited September 22, 2007 by t.s

[Plus]

They legalised it only seven years ago.

Now the Walletjes is about to be demolished as the city bought the rights to the land there.

edit: I meant Holland, not Canada.

Edited September 22, 2007 by Plus

[GuestHouse]

So you think its a change in Thai attitudes - which Thai's have you been talking to all these years then?

What do you want me to do list the names? - Take it that I have worked in Thailand in an professional environment for over a decade - I'm a fluent Thai speaker and through work (paid and voluntary) and through wide social connections have spoken with thousands of Thais. And that's just inside Thailand - outside of Thailand I have again worked in a professional environment with Thais and I have enjoyed a wide social circle within the expatriate communties in the places I have lived outside of Thailand.

Its nowt to do if the girl in Zara Emporium was a working girl or not - where is YOUR proof?? - she might have just been a girl who dressed the way she did but was from Isaan or somewhere Kitty discriminated againt.

Why do I need proof - The blogger has been explicit in her statements - there is no doubt about who she is attacking with her comments - Two individuals in particular and Foreigners with Thai Prostitutes in general - THE MESSAGE YOUR ARE CLOSING YOUR EARS TO IS THAT THAIS ABSOLUTELY TAKE A NEGATIVE VIEW OF THE BEHAVIOUR OF FOREIGNERS AND THE IMPACT OF THE SEX INDUSTRY ON THE IMAGE OF THAI WOMEN IN GENERAL/

It bloody snobbery from an ignorant cow Or understandable anger at the behaviour of foreigners and Prostitutes in Thailand - Again, consider how you'd feel if the dregs of the world started turning up in your country and behaving the way too many foreigners behave in Thailand.

You always go on about evidence etc - where is yours or is this a lie you are telling yourself? What evidence do I need to produce - The statements by the blogger are explict - Even if she was wrong in her interpretation of the relationship between the foreinger and the Thai women he was with this would not negate the sentiment regarding the behaviour. (see above)

I think soneone retorted very well to you on LP when you were shouting about its an independent Thai woman having an opinion of her own and expressing it - its something new to you is it? No I have met many opinionated Thai women and I am generally pleased to do so. - Read the derogatory remarks often made against western women here on TV (or indeed the wragging female posters in this thread are receiving and it is clear that Thailand attracts many men who do not like opinionated women.

For someone who has harped on a bloody lot about discrimination due to race, nationality, against immigrants this is rather amusing - so its OK to discriminate against certain gruops and not others - how rational

You are indeed correct, I do not like discrimination - but I have no problem with living within the local cultural norms - Thailand is a class based society, it is full of paradox (what society is not?).

I have not, nor do I defend the venom in the blog - Rather I say it is an indication of the views many Thais hold.

More than that it is proof possitive that the view often expressed here on TV that Thailand does not view the sex industry in the same negative light as western society does - is <deleted>. And I have always said it's <deleted>.

[GuestHouse]

Wake-Up Call

On another front the blog is confirming the negative view of prostitution in Thai society - Go ahead, attack the blogger, attack her age, maturity, her family's political history - You are not getting past the fact that she is expressing a Thai view (because she is Thai).So now I am representing the whole HK view just because I am from HK? It is her view, not a Thai view.

No but you would be the voice of an expatriate living in HK - remind me how long have you been there?

Her view - all be it nastily put, is a view that I have heard many many times from middle class Thais.

Maybe you should try to educate them a bit? Or is it too difficult a task to speak for the poor?

I've had many a heated argument with Thais on the subject of discrimination - but does that change views - And anyway, if a Thai said to me that they were fed up of foreigners coming to Thailand and riding rough shod over Thai cultural sensibilities I think I'd be inclined to agree, many foreigners do - seemingly in ever increasing numbers.

Stick your head in the sand if you wish but Thai society is changing and the views of Thais are changing

Do you know how boring it is to brag about all the time how much you know about the Thai society? Sorry no offense.

Do you ever think that a person also from Asia could possibly understand the mentality of the Thais easier than people from the west do?

What are you saying here? In a discussion where Thai Social and Cultural values are pinnacle to understanding the issues I should refrain from mentioning Thai Cultural issues or my understanding of Thai Cultural Issues? How odd - Let's pretend to be ignorant so that we don't have to challenge any of the thinking around here.

East/West understanding - Lets get the 'From' right first - Can we agree a Westerner and an Asian so that we don't confuse People of Western Cultural Background with People of Asian Cultural Background.

Understand - I think you can lead a man to knowledge but you can't make him think (likewise a woman). East or West I think it matters not, curiosity, temperament and mental capacity have more to do with understanding - but that is my own view.

Remember Taxin's campaigns closing bars and restricting opening hours where hugely popular across all Thai society ESPECIALLY to the Urban Middle Class (a group hostile to Taxin in general).

Please don't miss this point because it matters - Taxin touched on a Thai sentiment when he closed bars and brought in early closing. What sentinment was that? Why did the Urban Middle Class who were so anti-Taxin support him on this issue? - or is your head in the sand on that too?

[JonnyF]

People who don't give a shit what the others around them think, and do what they want to do without caring who they offend -- are often found to be unwelcome in many places, not just Emporium.

So what? If everyone thought that Canadians had no place in Emporium and found them offensive, would you continue to shop there, or crouch under the nearest stone and hide?

So what? -- you expect to behave as if you don't give a shit about the people around you -- which some would consider not very respectful -- but you feel entitled to their respect? If you don't care about what offends them, is it a big surprise that they wouldn't care for you?

To hear you, you're all budding Rosa Parks, Gandhis and Martin Luther King -- making bold strides for social equality in prejudiced Thailand. But you forget that even in "everyone is equal" farangland -- you wouldn't be well received if you brought an obvious prostitute to a "normal" social occasion.

I'll just repost what I wrote before, because I think it's apropos:

By the fact that I rarely see posters defend the dignity and rights of bargirls in other threads, I can't help but think that the offence some feel has less to do with altruistic concern for the social equality of bargirls and more about feeling judged in their own choice of mate and actions. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see many of you (obviously I don't mean everyone on this thread) speaking up about the multitude of other social inequalities in Thailand -- should I feel impressed at your thirst for social justice when it seems largely reserved for those you'd like to f-?

You've completely missed the point - again.

Just because someone finds something distasteful does not mean that the "offending" party is in the wrong and should change, even if they are in the minority. The Nazis didn't like the Jews very much but that does not mean that the Jews were in the wrong, just the that they did not fit the Nazi's idea of what was correct. This is clearly an extreme example, but it seems that you do not quite "get" the subtle ones.

If someone does not like what I do/think/how I behave, but I feel that I am within my rights to do it, then I ignore them.

You seem to imply that because I think that bargirls/prostitutes should be treated as human beings and not be pre-judged and discriminated against, that I am a customer. In fact I have never used their services and my Thai girlfriend (who is the same age as me, before you ask) is a English teacher, not an ex-bargirl.

Therefore I argue with you not to justify my lifestyle, but to try and make you reconsider your views on someone who insults the "toilets" that should dare to shop in the same place as the people who were born into wealth.

[CarlBkk]

Vicious Circle:

1. farang with bargirl in public leads to disdain from general Thai society
   
2. leads to farang being labelled as tasteless whoremongers
   
3. leads to labels being applied to farang/thai relationships by Thai society
   
4. leads to non bargirls becoming more wary to date farangs
   
5. leads to farangs going for the easy options.
   

It's not looking good.

Notes:

obvious prostitutes are just that. Not too hard to be correct at least 80% of the time. If you need to ask "what is an obvious pro?" you either need to live here a little longer or open your eyes a bit more.

prostitution and mismatches (poor pretty young thing with old fat or ugly man) are understandably scorned by all levels of society, not just the upper classes.

a good proportion of non-bargirls (westernised, monied, educated, travelled..whatever) are happy to date foreigners. They still find it awkward to mix into society when foreigners are commonly known for "not being very choosey", and so avoid it.

[Belthazar]

Every time I read that Thailand is only known for cheap sex, it makes me

It is true that a couple of years back this statement was correct, but nowadays it is only bla, bla ....

True sextourists could choose many other more friendly countries - Brasil,Cuba, Venezuela, Czech republic, Vietnam, Cambodia and even Russia.

Every time I travel to Thailand and immigration officer stares at me with disrespect, I would like to scream.

I am 30 yerars old caucasian male with two university degrees, but because I am travelling alone= sextourist.

In my coutry salesperson could make 24000,- BTH/month, emploee wit university degree 50000,- BTH/month - woman in night club 10000,- BTH/ a day, but in our society we generaly think that working in night club is not easy - and you are at risk all the time - STD, beating even murder

[GuestHouse]

What's all this self righteous clap trap about treating Prostitutes as Human Beings - well of course they are human beings.

But yes indeed they are subject to dehumanization - The blogger has done that, sexpat and sextourist bloggers frequently do that (with little or no complaint from the gallery) AND the guys who hire a Prostitute for sex do that - Or are we forgetting that point.

Do I need to drag up the arguments made last week in a discussion on the moral obligations of a father to his child conceived in a P4P transaction - Not only dehumanization of the Prostitute mother but disenfranchising child from the rights to be cared for financially and emotionally by its father - Because the mother sold her rights in the transaction - Ranting about dehumanization of prostitutes - P-Lease - Spare me.

How many here made the argument that a Prostitute sells her rights - And how many here taking offense at the blog join the chorus of hooting and guffawing when western womanhood is ridiculed in coarse generalizations?

[zzdocxx]

Yeah it escapes me how someone who is obviously educated and presumably civilized can endorse referring to other humans as "toilets". Was the presumed hooker really 12 years old? Truth or smear job? I'm surprised that the blogger, who comes off as a spoiled, immature, thoughtless child could become the poster girl for some otherwise intelligent adults.

Speaking of poster girls, here is a thread with some nice photos of Mr. Thaksin's twenty year old female "freind". Apparently he did take her shopping at Harrods, how interesting! (look near the bottom of the page.)

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=143533

And now on a barely related note -- I saw part of a documentary on a Cheng Ho, a Chinese explorer of the 1400's. In his accounts, the men in Thailand very much wanted the Chinese travellers to sleep with their wives, so much the better if it resulted in a child. Frankly I am skeptical that this wasn't some kind of early propaganda on the part of the Chinese, but it made me wonder.

Cheers everyone!

[GuestHouse]

Yeah it escapes me how someone who is obviously educated and presumably civilized can endorse referring to other humans as "toilets"

Is someone endorsing those offensive comments? Where? Show me.

[Belthazar]

Every time I hear something about morality I start , because I cant forget young guys from Iran and Pakistan I met in Thailand a year ago.

[GuestHouse]

I guess morality doesn't matter then.

[endure]

Morality is like fingerprints - everyone has a set and they're all different.

[GuestHouse]

Bored Tud?

Flex your intelect on this then and see if you can come up with a cohesive response.

What's all this self righteous clap trap about treating Prostitutes as Human Beings - well of course they are human beings.

But yes indeed they are subject to dehumanization - The blogger has done that, sexpat and sextourist bloggers frequently do that (with little or no complaint from the gallery) AND the guys who hire a Prostitute for sex do that - Or are we forgetting that point.

Do I need to drag up the arguments made last week in a discussion on the moral obligations of a father to his child conceived in a P4P transaction - Not only dehumanization of the Prostitute mother but disenfranchising child from the rights to be cared for financially and emotionally by its father - Because the mother sold her rights in the transaction - Ranting about dehumanization of prostitutes - P-Lease - Spare me.

How many here made the argument that a Prostitute sells her rights - And how many here taking offense at the blog join the chorus of hooting and guffawing when western womanhood is ridiculed in coarse generalizations?

[BADBRAD]

Guesthouse-

For the sake of argument let's assume that you are correct in saying that the majority of Thais (along with some of our more narrow minded fellow posters) feel that "obvious prostitutes" should not be allowed out in public with farangs and should only be "used like toilets"; does that make it a fair/just or morally defensible viewpoint? A few hundred years ago in the US, the vast majority of Americans felt that African Americans should not be allowed to go out in public and should only be used to do the work that whites didn't want to do. So because the majority held this view does that make it right? I don't buy the argument that because, as you say, most Thais are prejudiced towards prostitutes that they should be treated differently or afforded less respect based on their profession alone. NO, I am not married to a prostitute or ex-prostitute; NO, I don't frequent prostitutes (mostly because my girlfriend would kill me ); NO, I never made the argument that a prostitute sells her rights on any thread; and NO I don't hoot or guffaw when western women are ridiculed in coarse generalizations. The bottom line is I guess I am a lot less concerned with how other people spend their time when it is not interfering with my life than Ms. Kitty, some of the other posters here, and apparently you, are.

[siddv]

These are the so called "Hi So" guys that frequent all the Bangkok Massage "Enertainment Centers" on Rachada!. No wonder their wives have such a low opinion of these "working girls" They satisfy thier husbands more than they can. I bet theeir "Hi So" husbands do hold the same opinion that thier wives do! In fact, they probably have a few of them stashed away in a condo here and there under the guise of having to golf all day with the boss! !!! (Sorry if this point was raised..too many pots to read!

[siddv]

Let me add one more comment. I used to have a so called "hi so" girlfreind when I was assigned for a summer at a top international BKK lawfirm. (yes this is the same sidd) She was gorgeous and soon became nothing but a royal pain in the ass an she couldn't screw worth a ###### either. But man she could spend my money. Major star fish. My boss was in a worse situation..he claimed..he was married to one!! He and his wife were " Hi SO" Big Mercedes she like being driven around in. Anyways, he would drag me out at night and he didn't even like going to the MP on Rachada..he headed straight over to NEP. he said the girls there "rock my world". So I guess he liked the status his wife gave him but he certainly held his girls at NEP in high regard. They flocked to him and he dolled it out. I just enjoyed the crumbs.

[jumnien]

Toilets are very special; we all use them everyday and we are very, very grateful for them. Miss Kitty was not suggesting that we all use hookers everyday! She was just suggesting, extremely wisely, that if you must use a whore to relieve yourself, do so and by all means enjoy it, but when your finished, zip up and wash your hands and move on. If more farang would heed this wise advice we'd here far less complaints about how Thai women (prostitutes) all have sick buffalo and lie all the time. Miss Kitty can transform people's lives in a positive way and reduce suffering if they'd only listen. Dharma teachers such as Miss Kitty often ruffle peoples feathers on the path to bringing happiness into their lives.

[BADBRAD]

What ARE you smoking?

[zzdocxx]

If you think that Miss Kitty is a great dispenser of wisdom, so be it, it is your business and I wouldn't dream of trying to dissuade you.