Home Ownership

[Bomonster]

Hi,

I want to know the safest and legal way to get to live till i die with my thai wife in a house purchased by me.

thanks. the estate agents tell me all sorts.

[Khun Jean]

The easy answer.

There is no safe way.

If the marriage is good, and i would assume that, buying land in the wifes name and the house in yours seems the best way.

Usufructs are popular now, but i don't now enough about that to advice about it. It was intended for agriultural use, so it probably is just aother way to get around the landownership laws. But again, i don't know enough about that particular subject.

Age is also a point and if you have children . If you're probably dead within 30 years you can do a 30 year lease.

I doubt though that if things go wrong with the marriage you would still want to live in the house, something to consider.

Safest way and with no ownership problems is a condominium. Only way to own something 100% in Thailand. Just accept that most building quality is not up to western standards, so the next tens of years down the road.... ???

[Bomonster]

The easy answer.

There is no safe way.

If the marriage is good, and i would assume that, buying land in the wifes name and the house in yours seems the best way.

Usufructs are popular now, but i don't now enough about that to advice about it. It was intended for agriultural use, so it probably is just aother way to get around the landownership laws. But again, i don't know enough about that particular subject.

Age is also a point and if you have children . If you're probably dead within 30 years you can do a 30 year lease.

I doubt though that if things go wrong with the marriage you would still want to live in the house, something to consider.

Safest way and with no ownership problems is a condominium. Only way to own something 100% in Thailand. Just accept that most building quality is not up to western standards, so the next tens of years down the road.... ???

thanks i am totally against the company route as i cannot get my head round people trying to get you to do something illegal (lawyers) plus the fact of conspircy of shareholder that all know each other and work with the lawyer, would you agree.

[Gary A]

I hate anything that requires dealing with lawyers, taxes, tax returns or the Thai government. I DID buy a condo in MY name before I got married. That is my security blanket. I have bought several properties in my wife's name. They are hers, period. I didn't spend more than I can afford to walk away from. I don't expect my marriage to go pear shaped or obviously I wouldn't have bought the properties for her. I will remain a cynic until the day I die but if worse comes to worse, I definitely WON'T jump off a building. I have a good life and for the first time in my life, I am content. I would be devastated if my marriage failed but I would still be fine financially. Life goes on. I have a little mantra for when unpleasant things happen."This too will pass".

I really have a difficult time understanding why farangs pay a lot of money for lawyers, contracts, leases, taxes and tax return headaches to protect a property they can NEVER own anyways. It's also likely that they would have no use for the property if things were to go bad. I just trust my judgment and at the end know that I have done my best. I do take satisfaction knowing that my wife is provided for and that she will never go hungry regardless of what happens between us.

[PattayaParent]

Hi,

I want to know the safest and legal way to get to live till i die with my thai wife in a house purchased by me.

thanks. the estate agents tell me all sorts.

Land in wife's name, 30 year lease (renewable for 2 X 30 year periods), house in your name.

You could even set up a loan agreement with your wife for the money 'she buys' the land with.

[Khun Jean]

Last post is BS. Like so many on this subject.

If you would do a loan, make it a mortgage with the bank. Borrowing money to your own wife? Pre-nuptial agreements?

[Gary A]

Last post is BS. Like so many on this subject.

If you would do a loan, make it a mortgage with the bank. Borrowing money to your own wife? Pre-nuptial agreements?

Don't be hard on the lawyers. I have found that they will draft a contract covering anything you like and saying anything you want the contract to say. You will feel very good about your contract and think how well you have protected yourself. Unfortunately the contract may not be worth the paper it is written on and not legally enforceable, BUT, you will have peace of mind until something goes wrong.

[ThaiLawOnline]

Usufruct these days have nothing to do with agriculture. It comes from roman law, imported in civil law, and they give you the 2 first parts of property in civil law, the usus and fructus. In civil law, property is divided into usus, fructus and abusus. (Latin terms for use (rent, take), fruits (sub-lease, make money with) and abuse (sell, destroy))

The right to remain silent comes from the Star Chamber in UK where people were tortured until they confessed. Today, we forget torture and it's just one of the basic rights of an accused in common law countries. We don't mention the Star chamber every time we talk about the right to remain silent.

It is true that usufruct could be used for agriculture, exploitation of a forest or similar matters. For example, if the government owns a large piece of land, he could give a usufruct to a company for a large amount of money, to exploit, let say a mine. Profits of the mine will belong to the company but the company will never be the 'full owner' of the land. The government owns it (abusus) and the company has the 2 others parts of property (usus-fructus)

Let me give you some examples to show that usufruct CAN be a nice solution to few problems.

A common use of usufruct where I come from: Imagine a man owning a house. He wants to give it to his children but of course, he would like to see his wife staying in the house should he die first. So, in his will, he will give the house to his children and a usufruct to his wife on the house. After he dies, she will be entitled to stay in the house until she dies, even if legally the children will be the owners after he passed away.

Transposed it in Thailand: A foreigner would like to buy land but he can not. He put the land on his wife's name and she gives him a usufruct on the land for the rest of his life. If she passed away before him, he can stay there until he dies. If he dies before her, the usufruct will end and I believe he will not care very much! Combine with wills, it could be very powerful tool. We don't say that leases are a loop to how property in Thailand. It's in the law. The same thing, usufruct are not a loop. It's in the law.

There is another way that people don't talk a lot here, superficies. Let's keep it for another thread!

Now, is it safe? Some people will tell you that in Thailand, all contracts concluded between spouses while married can be voided by the Court when requested by a party (1469). It is not so simple and the publicity (registring a contract is called "publicity" ) surrounding the usufruct will make it (to my opinion) very difficult to cancel (because it has effects on 3rd parties - see 1469 in fine). Other dispositions of the civil code could also be used to sustain this argument. BTW, I never saw any usufruct cancelled by a court, but maybe. If you are not legally married, this doesn't apply and it's VERY safe for you.

A lease is safe but limited in time.

A usufruct is not limited.

A lease, you can't do it for free and you pay taxes.

A usufruct, you don't pay taxes (if done for free, if not I think it's 1.5)

Section 1469 applies to both of them, so, none is the best.

For a couple, farang-thai, depending on the relationship, I would say that the usufruct seems to be the best option. By far. And I would be more than happy if someone here shows me the opposite!

Sebastian.

PS. Yes, I know about superficies, combined with a lease and that will give you a possibility to claim a compensation under the undue enrichment sections if you build a house and you should separate. Nevertheless, I still believe that usufruct is better and more simple.

PPS: Even if in law you can stay on a piece of land with a usufruct, if you are surrounded in the jungle but an hostile family, maybe it is not a good solution for you! All cases are different. I fully agree with Khun Jean when he/she wrote:"I doubt though that if things go wrong with the marriage you would still want to live in the house, something to consider."

[mikethevigoman]

Hi,

I want to know the safest and legal way to get to live till i die with my thai wife in a house purchased by me.

thanks. the estate agents tell me all sorts.

Renting is the safest, property is an awful investment/risk in thailand in general, and if you dont beleive me why are the rents and some house prices the same as 8 years ago ?,.if its solely in your wifes name and you are comfortable with that that should be safe, but in my opinion an awful investment still,.and very complicated in terms of false companies ,the govt know it goes on and in thailand they can pass a law overnight that would have these companies declared null and void and you lose everything,.nothing surprises me anymore in thailand ,. dont gamble any more than you can afford to lose id say,.and to confirm what you have already noticed ,the real estate agents will tell you anything to sell a property,,. Edited September 19, 2007 by mikethevigoman

[AmericanGuy1066]

....

A lease is safe but limited in time.

A usufruct is not limited.

A lease, you can't do it for free and you pay taxes.

A usufruct, you don't pay taxes (if done for free, if not I think it's 1.5)

Section 1469 applies to both of them, so, none is the best.

...

I guess you like riddles. Try this one:

I'm in Thailand and England.

And also in Scotland.

But if you're English or Scottish,

You can't do to me a Thai's wish.

So let your wife do it to me,

Instead of to you.....

And I'll be happy, your wife will be happy,

... but how about you?

What am I? (And more to the point what a I doing with your wife?)

Edited September 19, 2007 by AmericanGuy1066

[PattayaParent]

Last post is BS. Like so many on this subject.

If you would do a loan, make it a mortgage with the bank. Borrowing money to your own wife? Pre-nuptial agreements?

A mortgage with the bank would have to be in the wife's name so how does that safeguard a farang's money?

Before you post your own BS try and make a constructive comment on the subject like explaining

How a mortgage with the bank would safeguard your money?

What to do for someone who doesn't wish to pay bank interest and pays cash for the land?

Why a legal contract for a loan would not be enforceable in Thailand?

So that we can all be enlightened by your knowledge rather than contributing nothing to the subject.

Edited September 24, 2007 by PattayaParent

[fletchsmile]

Hi,

I want to know the safest and legal way to get to live till i die with my thai wife in a house purchased by me.

thanks. the estate agents tell me all sorts.

As a few people have mentioned there's no one size fits all answer. You won't eliminate all the risks, plus risks and risk appetitie for different people will be different. Some of the many questions to think about: condo vs house (there's another thread on this); company vs individual; land lease, usufruct; what you can afford; timeframe; purchase in wife's name; where you want to live; marriage stability; divorce; death; exchange rates; currencies; liquidity; funding; economic, political, country risk; legal risk; opportunity costs to funds tied up; income taxes; inheritance taxes; children.

Difficult to say what is best for you without knowing a lot of those factors, and more.

For me, having weighed up as many factors as I could think of, and assuming I'd chosen a house not a condo. I would put the land in my wife's name. If I was paying cash I'd put the house in my name or joint names, so that if you look at at overall land + house total, the assets are split approx 50/50. If borrowing the money in Thailand, that will need things to be in your wife's name. If borrowing overseas, again I'd go overall 50/50 split to extent you can.

Our actual situation, we are buying a condo. We are taking out a mortgage in Thailand. Both condo and mortgage are in wife's name. Maybe at some point in the future once the Thai mortgage is paid, and hence the property can be in a foreigners name, we'll think about reorganising 50/50. Even then might leave it all in the wife's name. Less hassle, and we need to look at other assets as well, plus inhertiance tax, plus many of the above factors.. maybe just easier to leave it tho'

Edited September 24, 2007 by fletchthai68

[Maigo6]

If you're happy with your wife and she's happy with you, put it in her name.

A lot depends where you live actually, if you build a 2 million Baht house in Isaan and you go to the expense and paperwork of having leases and other crap, what are you gonna do if the marriage fails?

Live in Isaan on your own ? ( Propbably in the same locale as your wife ) No Chance.

Sell the house, Who's gonna buy it ? ( you gonna try to sell a lease ? ) No chance.

Be happy with what you are buying and be 100% sure you can afford it, and be 100% sure that if all goes wrong, you can carry on with your life without financial hardship cos you spent more money than you could afford to walk away from. Think of it as a house for your wife to get old in, or something for your children if you have any. You never know, you may get old in the same house too.

Buying a house in a popular Farang town like Pattaya may be different, cos the house may be attractive to another Farang if you wanna sell it, but at the end of the day, you can't own in Thailand, only a Condo, and who wants a bleedin' box in the sky?

If you cannot afford to buy a house and walk away from it, rent.

Edited September 24, 2007 by Maigo6

[Maigo6]

I have known guys spend a lot of money on a house, 10 - 15 Million, then they are running around looking for ways to bypass Thai Laws and lease the house from their wife etc...what a headache.

15 Million Baht in a Bank Account earning 5% after tax will give you 62500 baht a month, you keep all your money and rent a terrific house with no worries. In Pattaya and other popular Farang destinations, I would take that option if I could afford it and wanted to do it.

To spend 15 Million Baht on a house I can never own, not a chance. There are guys that do it though, then have sleepless nights worrying about it, what's the point?

Edited September 24, 2007 by Maigo6

[ThaiLawOnline]

I agree with Maigo6. But I've seen the opposite too. People putting 2 million baht on a house, on the Thai wife's name, without any protection. And soon, goodbye farang! It all depends on the relationship you have, the money that you are putting down, your income, what do you want to do for the rest of your life, etc.

But I would rather do a usufruct than nothing, and would combine it with wills, for example. Is it 100% safe? No. Is there a better option? Cheaper? Safer?

[Naam]

To spend 15 Million Baht on a house I can never own, not a chance. There are guys that do it though, then have sleepless nights worrying about it, what's the point?

my point is that i have spent much more but i don't have any problems sleeping from midnight till 04.00 hrs and from noon till 14.00 hrs.

what's your point Maigo? are you running around recording who sleeps and who doesn't sleep at night?

[Maigo6]

To spend 15 Million Baht on a house I can never own, not a chance. There are guys that do it though, then have sleepless nights worrying about it, what's the point?

my point is that i have spent much more but i don't have any problems sleeping from midnight till 04.00 hrs and from noon till 14.00 hrs.

what's your point Maigo? are you running around recording who sleeps and who doesn't sleep at night?

I'm talking about mere mortals Doc, 15 Million is nothing to you, but to many it's a lifetimes hard saving and sacrifice, to put it all on a house you can never truely own is not advisable in that case IMO.

Your case is different as you're rich.

Enjoy your house, and your sleep.

Edited September 24, 2007 by Maigo6