Another Dowry Question- Please Help

[Heng]

for those showing millions of baht, do you actually show it or do you just print a back statement? if you are dealing in cash, is there police protection?

Most use cash, but plenty of weddings I've been to opt for other (and safer, especially if you're not getting married in a 4-5 star hotel... or perhaps if you're getting married out in the stix..) instruments such as stock certificates, title deeds, Omsin bonds, etc. Anything that looks good on that tray basically... IMO these things look even better because you usually can't borrow these things, unlike cash or gold. And no, made up amounts on checks don't count, because contrary to popular belief, they bounce checks here as well, you may as well use Monopoly money if you're wanting to go down that route.

[rainman]

A lot of Thai families are dropping the sin sot tradition, too. I've been to a few weddings last year and this year and more often nothing about sin sot is mentioned, probably in an attempt to "westernize" the wedding.

[Nickthegreek]

Hi Phantom 200,

I thought I would add some words as I am in the same situation as you.

I met my wife to be over a year ago and went through this similar grinder.

I will add I put a post on here some weeks ago and got some very similar response,however i did get some very good response,the same as you are receiving.

I will outline my situation,I hope this helps..!!

My wife to be has bachelors degree in Biology,not that I give a sh1t,but there you go she is educated,she was working as a QC for a large Japanese company and had been for seven years,she had a nice salary and a pension.She is the title owner of her house that

her family live in, they and are also farmers,not in Isaan,they have a tractor,lots of land and seem to be content,well thats what it looks like from the outside,however there are things we do no see.

They have still not been paid there money completely from the government for last years crop.

I was asked to buy gold 10 baht the same as you,its all for show,how much is our daughter worth?( my wife said we can sell it if we need the money)

I was asked to pay 400,00 baht,I said no,we will have to save this for some years and put the date of about 5 years away.

In the meantime,my future wife and I have started and are running two successful businesses.

I then went back to her parents and said,look I would like to get married sooner,but 400,000 baht is too much,I am happy to pay 100,000 and the wedding.This was based on what I saw her brother give 6 months ago at his wedding,he recived some of it back because his wife was pregant,but not all...!!!!!!!

They said absolutely no problem,for a number of reasons,they know that we are stable and there daughter as a future and I am not going to give up all we have worked for.

The point I am trying to make is you are not alone,from a western culture I was dead against this ,but as one of the other people on this forum pointed out,if you want to fit into Thai culture there are still elements of it that exist, that are old school.

If you love you wife to be and she is the lady that you want to spend the rest of your life with,then go with your gut feeling,I read so much here and got myself in a right state.

I think my closing thoughts were,if I had to pay for a wedding in the UK it wouild have put me into debt for at least three years,as the average wedding there these days is 15,000 pounds about 30,000 us dollars.

If her parents can buy a new tractor and dont have to scrape for year or two,then good luck to them,they have asked me for nothing since I have been here and always treated me like I was part of the family.

I know that albeit it will never be mine and to be fair why should it be,the land will go to our family and I have a house to live in when I am 50 ish,which I paid nothing for,so to put a different slant on it,you would have to work for years in your western world to own that house and it wont be too long before its in your wifes and childrens name.

It could all be much worse.

I know I have rambled on a bit but maybe being so similar it will help.

I wish you all the best.

Nick

[a2396]

Some of you are very jaded, aren't you?

you know, maybe you would be surprised at how many 30 year old girls there are in Thailand without a boyfriend, ever. I can assure you they are out there. I'm friends with a family who have a now 32 year old daughter, attractive enough that very few of you would say no to her if she wanted to go out with you, university educated with pretty good English. There were Thai and foreign men wanting to go out with her but she never could find the right guy until she met an English man last year who swept her off her feet. She will probably end up marrying him later this year, one very nice lady that a lot of guys missed out on.

While there might be plenty of girls who will jump in to bed with any foreigner in the hope of improving their lot, there are also many who are still brought up in the old fashioned way who don't and you shouldn't make the mistake of assuming they are all fat and ugly either 'cause they're not.

I have a SiL from Mahasarakham and on my few visits there haven't come across many westerners married to a Thai and it's not a very big province compared to others in Issan. If the OP has been with her for 3 years then it sounds like a serious relationship and he shouldn't need to be asking on an internet forum about whether or not he should be paying a dowry. Three hundred thousand baht for a girl as described doesn't sound excessive for that part of Thailand. Trying to get out of it now is only going to harm the future of the relationship and if the girl is as nice as the OP says it sounds fair enough as the cost of the reception alone in the west would be much more than that so he should just pay up and think of it as in investment in both their futures instead of standing on principle. He won't be losing face whereas she seriously will if he doesn't pay up now after already agreeing to do so. It might be one thing to object to paying a dowry for a girl you've met via the nightlife industry, maybe with a child and a rudimentary education but in this case it's not so unreasonable especially from a Thai viewpoint. Why spoil the opportunity to have a good life with someone over an amount that he has already said is not going to be a hardship for him.

Any young woman (anywhere in the world) who is cute and sexy, usually has to beat the guys off with a baseball bat. Almost 100% of the Thai teen girls I see fitting this decription have one or more boyfriends. If not, they have been living in a convent. Ask any Thai girl if she has a boyfriend and the answer is always NO, even if he is sitting outside on a motorcycle. I presume she thinks a negative reply makes her appear more virteous, AND remember giks are not counted as boyfriends.

[a2396]

Wait ...she's 30 and you're her first boyfriend? I'm not talking about sex, but simply about her having a boyfriend.

Rainman, it isn't that unusual really, I've lived in Thailand for years and I had a GF who had a sister of 30 who had never had a BF and an aunt of 36 in the same boat. All attractive.

Thai Chinese, work, work, work, work...no time.

The girl I was seeing was 28 and still a virgin and I knew her for 6 months and we never had sex in that time !

It really isn't that unusual.

No sex for 6 months? and you stuck around and put up with that? I'm glad I'm not smoking what your smoking.

[a2396]

Regarding the money, it's not a hardship for me. It's the principle of the matter. I just want to pay what a Thai man of my status would pay.

How much do you earn a month, how much does she earn a month ?

300,000 isn't a lot of money for high earners, less than a months salary for many expats.

Also many richer Thais lay out millions to show, ask 'Heng' he can fill you in on what a Thai guy will show if he has Status.

How many expats do you know living in Thailand making $10,000 U.S. per month? Give me a break. You can't be for real.

[qualtrough]

How many expats do you know living in Thailand making $10,000 U.S. per month? Give me a break. You can't be for real.

When you combine salary, housing allowance, school fee allowance, home leave, car and driver, health insurance, company pension contribution, etc. there are plenty of expats here making that and more. I was on a full-expat package in Manila 2000-2002 and that was about what my compensation came to...and I was at the bottom of the totem pole in that company.

[esbobes]

Reading through the replies here it is easy to spot the people who have, or will have, real trouble adapting to life in Thailand.

Key clue: Those who expect Thai culture to be exactly like the one they came from.

I have seven daughter I live in America I hope we can start Sin Sot in America

Thanks for the Advice I like Sin Sot

[FarangNoi21]

"How many expats do you know living in Thailand making $10,000 U.S. per month? Give me a break. You can't be for real."

$120,000 is not alot of money. Don't be silly.

[FarangNoi21]

Wait ...she's 30 and you're her first boyfriend? I'm not talking about sex, but simply about her having a boyfriend.

Rainman, it isn't that unusual really, I've lived in Thailand for years and I had a GF who had a sister of 30 who had never had a BF and an aunt of 36 in the same boat. All attractive.

Thai Chinese, work, work, work, work...no time.

The girl I was seeing was 28 and still a virgin and I knew her for 6 months and we never had sex in that time !

It really isn't that unusual.

No sex for 6 months? and you stuck around and put up with that? I'm glad I'm not smoking what your smoking.

have you read his other posts? he is some old guy running around chasing impoverished girls in Isaan (not that there is anything wrong with that).

[FarangNoi21]

each of you has a different idea of what sin sot is and how it works:

some say its kept by parents as compensation for daughter

others say its kept for daughter incase of a divorce so she can survive

or it is just to show and gain face and then given back

anyways, i am happy my thai lady friend has more modern views and thinks sin sot is ridiculous.

[Maigo6]

No sex for 6 months? and you stuck around and put up with that? I'm glad I'm not smoking what your smoking.

Did I say I never had sex ?

I said I never had sex with that girl in 6 months.

Yes, she eventually married a Thai Chinese guy and I have no doubts at all that she was a 31 Year old virgin when she married.

And ?

[Maigo6]

How many expats do you know living in Thailand making $10,000 U.S. per month? Give me a break. You can't be for real.

Theres many Expats that live in Thailand earning that and more.

[Maigo6]

have you read his other posts? he is some old guy running around chasing impoverished girls in Isaan (not that there is anything wrong with that).

Some old guy Running around ?

LOL.........hahaha,

[rainman]

I have seven daughter I live in America I hope we can start Sin Sot in America

Thanks for the Advice I like Sin Sot

At the risk of sounding like the Sukhumvit tailors, can I call you "my friend"?

[Eastender]

Excuse me if this has been said before, I've just skipped right to the end.

The money and the gold is the same amount I paid. I did it really for my wife as it made her feel better, and ready to leave her family and move to the UK. The wedding day and party was the best day of my life and well worth the money.

Good luck.

[skysurfn3d]

I have to say some people here just seem to be closed minded. Your mixing two cultures together when getting married and your saying that it's my way or the highway???

If your real about having a partner, then you'll find something that works for both. For example I'm also against the idea of sinsod. But being 34 and having a good job, I take pride in being able to pay for my own wedding. So I gave the parents the 100,000 baht in the wedding "as sinsod" and they used that money to pay for ALL the wedding costs. They kept face, I didn't pay for sinsod, and we both kept our pride.

For each person/couple it's going to be different and no one can tell you what is correct.

[Thaddeus]

I have to say some people here just seem to be closed minded. Your mixing two cultures together when getting married and your saying that it's my way or the highway???

If your real about having a partner, then you'll find something that works for both. For example I'm also against the idea of sinsod. But being 34 and having a good job, I take pride in being able to pay for my own wedding. So I gave the parents the 100,000 baht in the wedding "as sinsod" and they used that money to pay for ALL the wedding costs. They kept face, I didn't pay for sinsod, and we both kept our pride.

For each person/couple it's going to be different and no one can tell you what is correct.

Hang on... you are against the idea of paying a sin sot.... so you didn't.

But you gave the parents 100k Baht to pay for the party.

I expect that the wedding expenses were read out over the sound system as well.

[bangsue]

so what if they had asked for 400,000B and 10B gold also?

would that have been OK.

I dont get where the 'face' is from taking money from your own daughter's boyfriend, when they are just getting married.

[britmaveric]

Bragging to the village plain and simple.

[Maigo6]

I dont get where the 'face' is from taking money from your own daughter's boyfriend, when they are just getting married.

I`d take it too !

[FarangNoi21]

have you read his other posts? he is some old guy running around chasing impoverished girls in Isaan (not that there is anything wrong with that).

Some old guy Running around ?

LOL.........hahaha,

i bet maigo has some sort of list of all the high school girl's 18th birthday so he drop by and wish them luck in college and if they need any help etc. (not that there is anything wrong with that)

[Flow]

300,000 or 200,000 seems VERY steep for a 30 years old.

I wouldn't pay more than 50,000 - 60,000 for a 30 years old Isaan girl if I were you.

Good luck!

[samui bill]

I am getting married in febuary and i am giving 200,000b sinsod and out of that the family have to pay for there own flight etc and after we get married my gf will not send money to her mum again,you have to remember this is thailand,do it there way and that is that,as someone else said ,in the uk the brides family pay for it and i bet you wouldnt get much change out of £15,000!If you dont have to pay like some people then no problem but if they ask for a bit dont make a big deal thats the way it is.

[samui bill]

300,000 or 200,000 seems VERY steep for a 30 years old.

I wouldn't pay more than 50,000 - 60,000 for a 30 years old Isaan girl if I were you.

Good luck!

Why do you make them sound like bits of meat or hookers!they are people.

[a2396]

Wait ...she's 30 and you're her first boyfriend? I'm not talking about sex, but simply about her having a boyfriend.

Rainman, it isn't that unusual really, I've lived in Thailand for years and I had a GF who had a sister of 30 who had never had a BF and an aunt of 36 in the same boat. All attractive.

Thai Chinese, work, work, work, work...no time.

The girl I was seeing was 28 and still a virgin and I knew her for 6 months and we never had sex in that time !

It really isn't that unusual.

No sex for 6 months? and you stuck around and put up with that? I'm glad I'm not smoking what your smoking.

have you read his other posts? he is some old guy running around chasing impoverished girls in Isaan (not that there is anything wrong with that).

Which old guy do you refer to? There are so many, is is easy to become confused. If there some girls in Issan who are NOT impoverised (ie, looking for money), please let me know. I would like to meet them.

[a2396]

How many expats do you know living in Thailand making $10,000 U.S. per month? Give me a break. You can't be for real.

When you combine salary, housing allowance, school fee allowance, home leave, car and driver, health insurance, company pension contribution, etc. there are plenty of expats here making that and more. I was on a full-expat package in Manila 2000-2002 and that was about what my compensation came to...and I was at the bottom of the totem pole in that company.

I'll be sure to inform the company personel office of this fact, when I go back home, that middle managers & below (ie those at the low end of the totem pole) command, at least $10,000 U.S., including paid for insurance, car allowance, school allowance, pension payment ,etc,etc. I am sure they will laugh me out of the office. If you are talking vice-president & above, probably. Many companies in USA are dumping pensions & health care expenses back on the employees. At any rate, with your compensation, no wonder Thais think all Farangs are filthy rich. I better move to Bangladesh.

[raybkk]

Here is a very interesting article that might answer all your questions:

http://nikkiblog.com/2007/09/25/money-can-...o-love/#more-27

Money Can Buy Me No Love

nikki September 25th, 2007

It is important to realize that while Thailand is much modernized in some aspects (i.e. it leads the world in producing the best Thai microwave foods and the largest amount of mp3 Thai songs in the world), most families still keep to the tradition of dowry in marriage.

Many Westerners have a look of distaste when asked to pay a dowry or in Thai “sinsod”. It also sadly caused many genuine farang-Thai couples to break up over a misinterpretation of culture or when no consensus is reached for some Thai couples. I recently heard an unbelievable story of how a future mother-in-law demanded a middle-class Thai guy to pay 10 million baht for sinsod. She was generous enough to offer him installments, with 0% interest even! He broke up with the girl shortly after he found out her price tag, even though the wedding cards were already printed. But who would blame him, POOR guy!

Sinsod is a way to honor the bride’s parents for raising her the best way possible. It is also very much a status symbol in Thailand, and in many other countries around the world such as India and China. In

Thailand, it is given as compensation to the bride’s parents for the money they have spent for the education and upbringing of their daughter. Though it seems unusual to many westerners, it is not meant to be dishonorable, or just a cultural tool to squeeze money out of men as if they were a 24 hour ATM machines.

Thai soap operas are a good measure of the state of mind of Thai people. Where do you think the screen writers get an inspiring idea from? They obviously look at what is going on around them. The story of a daughter from a rich family going through storms of trouble in order to be with her poor guy, is therefore probably not far from the reality at the going dowry rate. “Thank God she’s a girl”, many parents must have thought or risking the life of bankruptcy! Looking deeper into the dowry issues, these practices can be seen as a result of our class system, which looks down on inter-marriage between members of different classes. Maybe the point I am trying to illustrate is a little extreme, aside from matching wealth, parents also look at qualities such as levels of education, religion, and family reputation. One has to wonder, does love count at all apart from in the Thai soaps?For those of you guys who are in the process of marrying a Thai lady, here is a little guidance on the subject:

The bride’s family should take care of the costs for the marriage ceremony and party. The amount the bride paid towards the ceremony should be matched by the groom, and to be given to the bride’s family.

It is common for the guests to bring some cash to cover some of the wedding expenses.

In most cases, the dowry is just for the “show”, and is returned to the couple to use to start a new family. When you see “TV-stars” receiving millions, don’t be fooled, the cash didn’t go to the mother-in-law.

If you and your other half have much antagonism over the subject, then you should reconsider getting married. Money should not break both of you apart, and if it does this is not the right person for you.

Wait 1 to 2 years before you marry. There is no rush (unless you are 70). There are some couples who have known each other for 3 months, tie the knot, everything turns out fine, and to top it off they win the lottery too. Anything is possible! Increase your chances by taking your time to get to know the girl and her family. The old adage is true “when you marry the girl, you also marry her family”. Getting to know her is just the tip of the iceberg.

For those of you farang boys who are in the process of marrying any Thai ladies, not to rain on your parade, but you should be fully aware of the full implications of marrying them. This is simply a generalization, and there are plenty of exceptions to the norm.

Thai culture is unfortunately still largely segregated by class and origin. You will be looked down upon by Chinese Thais, if you pursue a relationship with a bar girl.

There is no set dowry, but it is typically determined on one hand by the suitor’s wealth (Thais by large reckon all “Farang” are wealthy), and on the other hand by the quality of the future wife.

Originally, the dowry was a way to prove that you could afford to look after the daughter, but I have heard stories where Isarn girls and their family squeezed money out of farang like Genie in the bottle after the marriage. Tensions between a farang husband and Thai wife will rise if he does not support her family, at least somewhat. The poorer his in-laws, the more true this is; the better off they are, the less true the rule is.

She may be a village princess, but if under suspicion, get her background check before you tie the knot, and get a solid prenuptial agreement. Better to be prudent, than to be sorry.

Can you put a price on love? Although there are no absolute rules, the amount of dowry is pretty well fixed on the girl’s social standing, and is rarely negotiated. In general, the amounts according to social standing are as follows:

Lower-class, up-country girl 30,000 to 50,000

Middle-class girl 50,000 to 200,000

Upper middle-class girl 200,000 to 500,000

Girl from an affluent or influential family 1,000,000 +

Not every girl I know asked for dowry at her wedding, and that’s one more reason to respect and love her even more.

[qualtrough]

How many expats do you know living in Thailand making $10,000 U.S. per month? Give me a break. You can't be for real.

When you combine salary, housing allowance, school fee allowance, home leave, car and driver, health insurance, company pension contribution, etc. there are plenty of expats here making that and more. I was on a full-expat package in Manila 2000-2002 and that was about what my compensation came to...and I was at the bottom of the totem pole in that company.

I'll be sure to inform the company personel office of this fact, when I go back home, that middle managers & below (ie those at the low end of the totem pole) command, at least $10,000 U.S., including paid for insurance, car allowance, school allowance, pension payment ,etc,etc. I am sure they will laugh me out of the office. If you are talking vice-president & above, probably. Many companies in USA are dumping pensions & health care expenses back on the employees. At any rate, with your compensation, no wonder Thais think all Farangs are filthy rich. I better move to Bangladesh.

I forgot to add that the company also paid for gasoline for the car and all household utilities including cable TV. The only expenses we had to cover were for food and clothing. It was a wonderful life while it lasted, and I know more than a few people who still enjoy that kind of deal. Many Thai expat packages also come with club membership, e.g. British Club, etc.

Who cares what your personnel office would think?? There was nothing unusual about my expat compensation package, as others on this thread have mentioned. If this is news to you it suggests you are not very well informed.

Edited September 30, 2007 by qualtrough

[meemiathai]

I am married to a Thai and so are most of my friends.

Not one of us has ever been asked or had to pay a Dowry.

If you are not comfortable with the arrangement and the girl loves you, not paying a dowry should not be a problem.

Personally I think you are being conned.

I agree.

If the girl loves you, you should also have no problem having a mia noi if that is what you feel happy about.