Another Dowry Question- Please Help

[meemiathai]

Wait ...she's 30 and you're her first boyfriend? I'm not talking about sex, but simply about her having a boyfriend.

Rainman, it isn't that unusual really, I've lived in Thailand for years and I had a GF who had a sister of 30 who had never had a BF and an aunt of 36 in the same boat. All attractive.

Thai Chinese, work, work, work, work...no time.

The girl I was seeing was 28 and still a virgin and I knew her for 6 months and we never had sex in that time !

It really isn't that unusual.

No sex for 6 months? and you stuck around and put up with that? I'm glad I'm not smoking what your smoking.

It seems the one that you are smoking is stronger.

[meemiathai]

How many expats do you know living in Thailand making $10,000 U.S. per month? Give me a break. You can't be for real.

When you combine salary, housing allowance, school fee allowance, home leave, car and driver, health insurance, company pension contribution, etc. there are plenty of expats here making that and more. I was on a full-expat package in Manila 2000-2002 and that was about what my compensation came to...and I was at the bottom of the totem pole in that company.

With that money you cannot even rent a decent house.

[raybkk]

How many expats do you know living in Thailand making $10,000 U.S. per month? Give me a break. You can't be for real.

Theres many Expats that live in Thailand earning that and more.

Lots of them! I wouldn't be here if I would make less than that! I am here for work, not being too old and giving my best! Yes, I want to stay here as long as possible, if possible. But right now and for the past 12 years I just keep concentrating on what I can do best, work and make sure I reach the targets as set without any abstractions from the "killing fields" such as "NANA" or other bar area's where people come and go chasing there "dream world". Dont get me wrong, I do like my beers!

I can enjoy the fun part of retiring later as I am only in my thirties! Give me 4 more years and than I will be able to fully announce my retirement!

Now back to Dowry....hmmmmm, not much to say. It seems that if you show love and are equally aged and educated, the parents just want there daughters to be happy!

[a2396]

How many expats do you know living in Thailand making $10,000 U.S. per month? Give me a break. You can't be for real.

When you combine salary, housing allowance, school fee allowance, home leave, car and driver, health insurance, company pension contribution, etc. there are plenty of expats here making that and more. I was on a full-expat package in Manila 2000-2002 and that was about what my compensation came to...and I was at the bottom of the totem pole in that company.

With that money you cannot even rent a decent house.

$10,000 U.S. dollars per month and cannot rent a decent house in Thailand!!! What are you looking for, a palace? I guess we are not in the "high roller" hi-so set, such as yourself. I rent a very decent house for 10,000 BHT per month, not dollars. By your standards, all these "cheap charlie" farangs, who are not making $120,000 per year, should crawl in a hole somewhere, as their sub-standard incomes are not nearly worthy of some deserving Thai maiden. Maybe you are talking about a SF detached dwelling in HK. For that, you probably need millions. Maybe you should go see how the other half lives.

[Smithson]

A lot of Thai families are dropping the sin sot tradition, too. I've been to a few weddings last year and this year and more often nothing about sin sot is mentioned, probably in an attempt to "westernize" the wedding.

They're dropping more than the sin sot tradition. Truth is so many Thais never get married anyway, they just live together.

If you want to avoid Sin Sot and marriage in general, then don't go to the girls home. Furthermore avoiding contact with the family will help you avoid confrontation - one of the most important things over here.

Don't read the dribble on Stickman, the experts on Thai women are Thai men. If you're gf says sin sot is Thai style, ask if that means you get to behave like a Thai man?

In your case it's a personal decision, if you wanted to avoid it, best not to have met the parents. Although it doesn't sound like a ridiculously high figure. Maybe you could buy a car of some land in your wifes name that you could both use?

[FarangNoi21]

If you're gf says sin sot is Thai style, ask if that means you get to behave like a Thai man?

how do they behave?

[Smithson]

If you're gf says sin sot is Thai style, ask if that means you get to behave like a Thai man?

how do they behave?

It really has to be seen to be believed. The basic things are they don't really believe in being faithful, working hard or helping support kids if they split.

If you didn't know all this already, then you've really jumped into the deep end by talking to the parents about Sin Sod. The best advice you'll ever get here is to be nice and avoid confrontation, but don't be weak.

The suggestion to start saving together was a good one, why not start today? You may be surprised to find you GF's willing, it may also give you a bit more time here before committing to marriage (and parting with the cash).

The same poster also mentioned your indefinite status here, something rarely considered. Sin sot really is a 'part of the contract'. Take the example of Heng, if a couple was rich and really love each other, why the need for all the assets to be involved? Maybe you could agree to the 'tradition' when the govt gives us farang equal status

A good thread anyway, I just love reading all the TV posters talk about the rich, educated wives and the hi-so circles the mix in.

[intumult]

When I look back at the 7 figure sum I was asked for after knowing the Lady for a few months I am glad I declined.

I did see her with pen and paper totting up figures though at the time I did not know what she was doing.

500,000 for the car.

100,000 for 1 land with house.

100,000 for land #2 with banana

xxx for the wedding itself

and a whole other list of figures

I saw the total. 1,500,000.

This for a divorced woman with 2 children who was working (had a couple of jobs), whose house was in need of some 'upgrading' and whose family did not have much in the way of land or money. They owned 2 rai of land in total. On this land was a house for the brother - who, incidentally prefers whiskey to women (sensible man LOL)

A house for the mother and one other daughter and her husband.

At a later date I discovered why she asked for so much money without checking out how much I have. Seems she has Thai women friends who have married Farang and she is always told how rich the Farang are. Also she has a contact who sets up marriages and is told the Farang regularly pay huge sums of money for marriage.

Is there any wonder many Thai women ask for large amounts of money for marriage when they hear this from friends who are with Farang?

To me, 1,500,000 maybe ok for a virgin princess but for a woman who has already received 1 sin sod and whose marriage ended in divorce? No chance.

And, NO, I kid you not about the sums involved. When she is told that her friends husbands regularly give them 10,000 Baht at the drop of a hat it is no wonder she - and no doubt many other Thai women - see us as money making machines.

Would I pay a sin sod? Maybe. That would depend on the woman and the circumstances but I would pay sin sod for the wedding and maybe a 'honeymoon' afterwards but not for the family to make money from the occasion.

If 2 people love each other they will find a way to make it work.

So if the OP is happy, then let him go ahead, if he is having serious doubts then he should back out sooner rather than later as the woman and her family will lose face big time.

[buffcoat]

In my case I agreed to BHT 200,000 and 20 Baht of gold,the same amount of sin sod as was paid by her cousin the year before.

In addition the car I bought for her here in the UK was 'included' as part of the sin sod...lots of face for that (took ages to find a scale model in red for the display).

Some time after the sin sod was agreed her family told me they did not need/want the SS and we could have it all back.I think they were trying to make sure I was genuine and was prepared to demonstrate my desire to support my wife and respect her culture during the negotiation and once they were sure of me were more relaxed.

For the sociologists out there she is Thai Chinese,was at the time 27,uni degree,not previously married,no children.

[Phantom200]

Did anyone see the documentary "The Fog of War" by Robert Mcnamara? I think it pretty much sums up this thread. Robert Mcnamara, was the American Secretary of Defense during the Vietnam era. He was described as "the human computer" by some. In the movie, he gives his summary on the Vietnam War. In a nutshell, he said that there were just too many variables to make any accurate strategic forecasts. NOTHING could be predicted due to the staggering possibilities of probable occurrences.

He called this phenomenon, "The fog of war".

Here we have "the fog of sin sod" or, if you prefer, "the fog of Thailand". I'm going to try and consolidate some of the info on here and I will give you my decision based on the results:

Data:

1) Let's assume that in Mahasarakham, the dowry is expected to paid; thus it is tradition there. (bare with me for now)

2) My fiancé loves her family and supports their decisions. The respect that these people have for their families, as most of you know, is immovable. I respect her decisions, advice and feelings about her family. Her family lives in Mahasarakham and expects a dowry.

3) I already agreed to pay it.

4) Many posters have mentioned various opinions on the amount ranging from: 0 baht to over a million. Therefore, I believe I'm nowhere near the high-end.

5) No one has posted any negative experiences from paying a dowry. (not that it doesn't happen) In fact, those on this site who admit to paying a similar dowry to mine have spoken only of positive effects from their actions. This is great to hear.

6) A few posters made some comments about the differences in our cultures. I live in Thailand. This is not my country and it really is not my right to tell them they can't continue on with their tradition and ways, no matter how silly some of these things appear to me. Now, this doesn't mean that I can't make suggestions. In fact, I usually do. But I will never force someone to do something because I did it back home. If the Thais did everything I wanted them to do (e.g. walk faster, not wait in front of the elevator doors, hold the door for the next guy, drive correctly…) then I'm sure I would be packing my bags soon after and looking for something more exotic and different.

7) Finally, some posters said " …just go with your heart". I like these opinions too.

Decision:

I've decided to pay the sin sod in the original amount. I feel good about this decision and I only have the members on this site to thank.

Some final words:

I appreciate all of the posts from those who married girls and didn't pay for anything. I think you're all very lucky and I hope the best for you and your spouses in the future. I don't feel bad that I didn't get to meet a high-society girl in Bkk. I know that I found someone truly great.

Some posters included a link to "The stickman". Yes I read the entire lengthy post. I don't see how it relates to my situation though. That link focuses on "Bar-girls". I did enjoy the opening of The Stickman's post, however. He talks about how Anna Leonowen's book is a must read for those that live in Thailand. I am almost finished with her first book and it is quite remarkable how similar Thailand was almost 150 years ago to the Thailand of today.

Another angle:

I guess we can't always have our cake and eat it too. Think about this for a second: If my fiancé had come around to my ideas of using this money for a house or business, therefore snubbing her parents, what would the ramifications have been? Well, other than having a house, we would have probably lost some respect from her family, thereby decreasing the overall happiness factor for everyone. And if she accepted my opinions then this would also denote that my fiancé had Western reasoning. Not that Western reasoning is bad; I use it everyday. But I do admit that I love my finance for who she is: A Thai woman who thinks like a Thai woman. This sums up the two most important reasons for my expatriation: I wanted to marry a beautiful Thai woman with Thai attitude, and I wanted to be happy.

Thanks for all the posts. I read and appreciate all of them. From the good to the bad; the negative to the positive; and the "senseless to the sensible".

Phantom200

Edited October 5, 2007 by Phantom200

[asiaworld]

Good for you Phantom, the only thing i wanted to comment on is the Stickman post! i've red it in a single breath, & saved the copy . You're so wrong,saying,that he adresses BG relationship.. His writing is ABOUT Thai culture, NOT his fault, that most of thai-inter relationships involve bargirls in one way, or the other.. Some guys know that, to some it remains a mystery..(C'mon, if one meets responsive gal on the street, sure if she was ever in 'the industry', she'll try not to advertise that small 'peculiarity' ) . One greatest point he's making in his post is; how does it makes you more thaifollowing the tradition, which Doesn't apply to you ! You get no mileage for it , unless you are thai.. And you're NOT on your way of becoming one due to your marriage here, unfortunate fact, nothing to do with girl's family, pure politics.

Get some thai male friends, & learn from THEM about thai culture & attitudes, will be much more eyeopening ..

short point is , if sinsot gives you the recognised position in thai Sakdina fork it out ,as fast as you can ( i would)..

if not, why make a clown out of yourself..