Drowning Person

[taxexile]

Police under orders not to save drowning victimsDaniel Foggo and Jack Grimston

Sunday Times

The emergency services are being told not to attempt to save drowning people because of health and safety restrictions, it has emerged.

Amid a growing row over the failure of two police support officers to try to save a boy from drowning, both the police and the fire service disclosed this weekend that their frontline staff are instructed not to enter the water in case they put themselves in danger.

Officers are no longer required to be trained in swimming or lifesaving. One police force closed its training pool five years ago for health and safety reasons after an accident and it has not reopened.

An inquest last week heard how two police community support officers (PCSOs) had stood by while a 10-year-old boy drowned in a pond in Wigan. Senior officers with the Greater Manchester force, which employed them, said they acted “correctly”.

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The boy, Jordon Lyon, died despite a fully qualified police officer subsequently plunging into the water in an attempt to rescue him. His force made it clear this weekend that the officer was acting on his own volition and contrary to advice.

The case has ignited a debate over whether PCSOs, who receive only a few weeks’ training and do not have full police powers, should be scrapped.

Ann Widdecombe, Conservative MP for Maidstone and the Weald and former Home Office minister, said: “In the last decade we really have got so bogged down in the compensation culture and procedures and fear of being sued that we’ve lost sight of the bigger picture completely.

“It’s barmy, we’ve lost sight of what the emergency services are for. They are there to help people. I am quite emotionally angry about this.

“###### being a PCSO, what about being a human being? For the senior officer to say this was appropriate is unbelievable.”

Yesterday, David Blunkett, who introduced PCSOs as home secretary, said he would have hoped that they would have let basic human concern for others override instructions not to enter the water. “What was appropriate in these circumstances would be appropriate for PCSOs as human beings,” he said.

However, Greater Manchester police indicated that the PCSOs, a man and a woman, might not even have known how to swim. PCSOs are not required to know how to swim when they join any force and Manchester police said it did not train them to do so.

“They are not trained to swim and they don’t need to be able to swim to be a PCSO in Manchester,” said a spokeswoman, who refused to confirm whether the two officers could swim.

The situation with fully trained police officers is similar. The spokeswoman said: “The officers are advised not to go into the water. They are not trained in water rescue.”

Officers like Sergeant Craig Lippitt, who attempted to rescue Jordon by stripping off and diving in of his own volition, were acting against instructions, although they would not be disciplined for rescuing someone, the spokeswoman said.

Firefighters who attempt the same are not necessarily so fortunate. In March a 42-year-old firefighter, Tam Brown, saved a woman in the River Tay. He was later informed he could face disciplinary action.

Roddy Robertson, executive council member of the Scottish Fire Brigades Union, said most firefighters had absolutely no training in rescuing drowning people. “We don’t think the responsibility lies with us, we aren’t trained and we aren’t funded. We think it lies with the police but we don’t know if they are funded for it,” he said.

If a force decides to train its officers in water rescue, there are three gradings of competence. Level one involves not entering the water but throwing a line to the victim from dry land; level two entails wading out attached to a harness; and level three deals with rescues in fast running water.

“Less than 10% of staff in Scotland are trained to level one or above,” said Robertson.

Training is thought to be equally patchy in England. Duncan Milligan, spokesman for the Fire Brigades Union, said: “It varies from fire authority to fire authority whether they have people trained to carry out water rescues.”

Firefighters untrained in water rescue would almost certainly attempt to help despite the official advice because of their innate desire to save people, he said. “It is what rescuers call the moral dilemma, in other words when life is threatened to a member of the public, do they try and effect a rescue whether or not they have the training and equipment to carry it out, thereby risking their own lives?”

Lippitt evidently had no problem wrestling with the “moral dilemma”. By the time he arrived at the pond where Jordon had got into trouble while trying to rescue his eight-year-old stepsister Bethany, the boy was submerged. The two PCSOs had arrived some time earlier but not attempted any kind of rescue.

Anthony Ganderton, Jordon’s stepfather, who also dived in after arriving at the scene, said: “The proper police officer did a brilliant job when he arrived. He didn’t hesitate, he was straight in. But the other two were there before him. Why didn’t they do something? It might have made the difference for Jordon.”

Jordon had been playing at the pond, a flooded mine shaft, with Bethany and his younger brothers. Two fishermen, John Collinson and Bert Wright, noticed that Bethany and Jordon were in the water, with the girl being held up by her brother, who was already submerged.

Wright went in up to his chest and tried to reach Bethany with his rod. When it broke he managed to grab the girl and pull her to safety, despite going under the water himself at one point.

They alerted the emergency services, but the first arrivals were the two bike-riding PCSOS who “just stood there”, according to Collinson, before Lippitt arrived.

The Manchester force said Jordon would have been beyond help by the time the PCSOs arrived, since he had been submerged for 10 or 15 minutes.

Assistant Chief Constable Dave Thompson said: “The two PCSOs involved did not stand by and watch Jordon die. They acted correctly and I fully support the actions they took.

“By the time they arrived, Jordan had disappeared under the water. He had been under the water for some time and there was no indication as to where he was in the lake.”

According to the rulebook, Thompson is correct. Under guidance from the Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo), constables, let alone PCSOs, are advised not even to enter the water if they cannot see the person who is in trouble.

“You may end up with another serious situation and another person drowning,” said an Acpo spokesman.

Rescuing people drowning is undoubtedly dangerous. In 1999 Paul Metcalfe, a Bury firefighter, died after trying to retrieve a drowning teenager from a pond. Untrained in water rescues and ill-equipped, he went into the water with a line but succumbed to hypothermia. The Health and Safety Executive (HSE) later decided to prosecute the Manchester fire authority.

But while Manchester fire and rescue services are now better equipped at water rescuing than some other brigades, the general reaction across the country appears to have been to tell firefighters to take no chances, and that attitude has spread to the police.

In July this year, the Metropolitan police were fined £75,000 and ordered to pay £50,000 in costs after pleading guilty to breaching health and safety laws after two 14-year-old boys, Gameli Akuklu and William Kadama, died at a children’s event in 2002 in the swimming pool at the force’s training college in Hendon, north London.

Brian Paddick, who retired from the Met in May as a deputy assistant commissioner, said: “At that time all recruits were trained to swim and, when they could, they were trained in lifesaving.

“As a result of this incident, the then commissioner, John Stevens, ordered the pool to be filled in. Since then, officers have not been trained in swimming or lifesaving.”

Paddick, now running as the Liberal Democrat candidate for London mayor, said the approach of the police nationally to health and safety had also been shaken by the death of Kulwant Sidhu, an officer who fell to his death while chasing a suspect across a roof.

The HSE brought a prosecution which, although it failed, cost £3m and saw Stevens and his predecessor, Lord Condon, brought before the Old Bailey.

“They were prosecuted because they had not instructed officers not to risk their lives operating at height,” said Paddick. “That now extends to forces telling police community support officers not to get involved in emergencies or in violent situations. They are told to withdraw and call the police.”

Paddick said that officers in the Met were supposed to call for back-up from the fire brigade or a lifeboat if they encountered someone drowning, but he said most had the “self-confidence” to ignore the rules if a life was in danger.”

He added: “Community support officers do not have that self-confidence, and standing on the shore watching is just one example of that.”

[girlx]

i would not attempt to save someone as i am a horrible swimmer and would drown myself. if i could throw some kind of line to them or get someone around to help, i would, but that's it.

[mikethevigoman]

If you were walking along a beach in Thailand and you saw a person drowning in the water would you help them or would you pretend you had not seen them and keep walking?

Id throw them a boy !

[mr_hippo]

If you were walking along a beach in Thailand and you saw a person drowning in the water would you help them or would you pretend you had not seen them and keep walking?

The question is hypothetical and no-one knows how they will react until they are in that situation!

Edited October 2, 2007 by mr_hippo

[Douggie Style]

As Clint Eastwood once said 'a mans got to know his limitations..'

If you think you can do it go for, if not get help.

People drown surprisingly quickly, perhaps less than 2 minutes...it usually starts from a mad panic, this desperate need to get the head high out of the water, which just uses up the energy reserves, once any seawater gets into the system its very rapidly downhill. Many surf victims die from a heart attack caused through an ion imbalance via less than a cup full of water in the lungs rather than being asphyxiated.

Can't stress the importance of being relaxed in surf, just let the waves break over the face, float it out, use minimal energy, don;t worry about rips they are circular.

PS: A Bronze medallion is a good knowledge course but IMHO not worth squat in big surf, it comes down to fitness and experience in those conditions.

PPS: Once saw someone literally climb onto the head of a rescuer, it was in a rock pool about 6ft deep, the rescuer was 5ft, they both ended up bobbing up and down as the rescuer hit the bottom...the crowd laughed.

[Prakanong]

That's why you grab drowning people from behind, so they can't grab at you.

Looong time ago now but when I did my Bronze Medallion Lifesaver thingymebob we were taught to approach from behind but also to wait (tread water) until the were exhausted (well tiired at least) if required so they could not grab you as strongly.

I was taught this both in the sea docks swimming club and in the "Pit Pond" which was 14 foot in the shallow end and over 30 foot in the deep end.

Now I think unless it was wading depth I would try to attract other help or look for something to throw the person to keep them afloat but of course all that rationality might not happen in an emergency.

[Sir Burr]

Well, I stand by my statement regarding rear approaches for those capable (CRC Bronze Medallion, 1985), and the reason given is exactly why the approach to a conscious victim is from the rear.

And you don't sit it out if you can't actively help, you go get someone who can. That's not too much to ask.

I agree with Colpyat. I train in Sea Survival every four years for my job. We are told b y the instructors to stand-off until they are too weak to be a danger.

How do you approach from behind if they keep turning to face you?

The first rule of first aid is to never put yourself in danger.

Colpyat is correct on this one.

[Prakanong]

Well, I stand by my statement regarding rear approaches for those capable (CRC Bronze Medallion, 1985), and the reason given is exactly why the approach to a conscious victim is from the rear.

And you don't sit it out if you can't actively help, you go get someone who can. That's not too much to ask.

I agree with Colpyat. I train in Sea Survival every four years for my job. We are told b y the instructors to stand-off until they are too weak to be a danger.

How do you approach from behind if they keep turning to face you?

The first rule of first aid is to never put yourself in danger.

Colpyat is correct on this one.

As I posted too I agree.

I grew up swimming in the sea in the NE of England and can think of a few lucky escapes I had. The local football trophy for Junior School level was named after a boy who had jumped in to save a pal and drowned in the local "Whirlpool" while the pal survived.

[toptuan]

Would the mods PLEEZE add an "N" to "drowing" in the thread title????

Englihs Teecher from Isaan

TT

Edited October 2, 2007 by toptuan

[cdnvic]

Well, I stand by my statement regarding rear approaches for those capable (CRC Bronze Medallion, 1985), and the reason given is exactly why the approach to a conscious victim is from the rear.

And you don't sit it out if you can't actively help, you go get someone who can. That's not too much to ask.

I agree with Colpyat. I train in Sea Survival every four years for my job. We are told b y the instructors to stand-off until they are too weak to be a danger.

How do you approach from behind if they keep turning to face you?

The first rule of first aid is to never put yourself in danger.

Colpyat is correct on this one.

People are assuming a lot in what I said. I said you approach a conscious person from the rear, which is exactly what they teach in lifeguarding. If they are under enough of their own control to keep turning and facing you then they more than likely aren't drowning, merely panicked. If the person can control themselves this well you might be better off to try verbally instructing them.

[xbusman]

On one of my first trips to Thailand, about 98 or thereabouts, I decided to see Bangkok from the klong boats that ply the Chao Phraya. I love those oversized long tailed boats, roaring down the klongs, a great way to see old old bangkok. Down to the docks, bought a bag or two of drinks, some moo ping, paid the farang price and settled in a center seat. One of those long tails that probably had about 15 rows which comfortably accommodate anyone under 3' 7". A beautiful day on the river, if I remember correctly sunny and beastly hot not unlike the weather for the past millennium here.

When the boat was fully loaded, our captain fired up the V8 on a stick and pushed us out into river. It was glorious. The rice barges, the ferries, the big hotels sliding by. Moo ping was tasty, I was in Thailand, life was goooood.

About ten minutes out, not understanding a word of thai at the time and in my tourist stupor, even I began to notice that something was wrong. A passenger in the bow was shouting to the captain and up on the seat looking forward. People were chattering and its hard to explain to those that dont know thailand, but despite sitting next to an unmuffled 480 horsepower V8 engine, the level of noise rose a notch or two.

Sitting in the middle of one of those boats must be somewhat akin to being fitted for a casket. Low in the center with raised bow and stern, visibility fore and aft is nothing but black hair and smiles. The first clue I had that a situation was developing is when the captain cut the engine and stood up. The sudden reduction of the usual 300 decibal engine music had the effect of enhancing the apparent urgency of the conversation now taking place on the boat between passengers and our captain who looked all of 16 years old. Only Thailand hands can appreciate how disturbing the quiet can be.

I could see the captains face when he stood up, and the look worried me. He immediate gave orders to the passengers in rather a "before the mast" commanding tone. I had no idea what he said but I bet he gave orders not to look and where to sit. I do know that having all your passengers on a boat rush to one side to have a peek can seriously destabilize a proper ferry, for our flat bottom klong rocket with 3 inch gunnel's it could have been a disaster. Unfortunately, thats all in hindsight, what I proceeded to do was try and get up for peek to see if we were facing a sea monster, whirlpool or som tam sale.

Raising up and looking over the bow, I could not make out the source of the commotion. Looking back at the captain I could that worried expression and tried to follow his concerned stare but could only see a rice barge in the general area he was looking. Half up, and gawking, I heard that V8 roar into life again, but this time not at the sedate 300 decibel rate I was expecting, instead we were preparing for take off. I remember thinking that as the incredible lurch of the boat in response to full throttle tipped me over the back of the seat into the lap of a lovely lady behind me.

With my feet straight up in the air, I settled down into the seat behind mine in the lap of a lovely overweight lady who lives somewhere along klong noi on the south side of the river. As I lay there, enveloped in the sound of a jet engine being asked to pull out of a dive, I noticed that I had either relieved myself in the excitement or shared my bag of drink with my new friend. The straw in her hair relieved my anxiety.

If you did not know, they only run those long tails about 30% throttle. This boat took off like a tuk tuk after a Norwegian. It simply flew. From my new perch, I had a wonderful view of the captain working that engine like a tuba player in a marching band. At full throttle, the bow came up and he had almost no forward visibility, leaning out over the edge, he manipulated that 1000 pound engine at full throttle with amazing skill skill and precision. I struggled to get upright but the g force was simply too much and honestly, that lap was greatly appreciated after those hard seats. Just as I gave up and began checking for the moo ping to offer to my new traveling companion, about ten hands came from nowhere and stuffed me back into my row. I have no idea how that was accomplished but it did feel good being upright again.

Let me tell you, those big long tails can flat out get it. That boat shot across the river at full speed, captain standing on the stern, our bowman shouting back directions. I settled back in and looked forward to see if I could find the source of the excitement, sure that it had to be food related in Thailand, and saw that between us and the rice barge there were two arms sticking straight up out of the water. I could now make out the crew on the rice barge, shouting and throwing a life ring buoy but it was obvious that the person in the water was too far for them to reach. The arms never moved, they stood rigidly in the air with clenched fists as if in defiance of the fate that cast them adrift.

Our captain, with one hand and at full speed, brought our boat around to a direct line of the drowning man. It was a miraculous show of seamanship that was almost hard to believe. He lined up on those arms, keeping the engine screaming, he brought us exactly on a course that would slide along side the swimmer. The deck hand carefully arranged some fatties starboard and a few men leaned over the port side preparing to snatch. As the single non entity in the boat, and occupying a strategic center seat (close to the water) I joined the port side gang to see if I could help.

About 60 yards from the arms, the captain closed the throttle. Still traveling at what felt like water ski velocity, the silence was immediately deafening and ominous. The rowing team prepared to catch and we were exactly on target when about 30 yards before we reached those arms, they slipped completely under the water. I remember the lead catcher looking back at us with a saddened grimace, we were about five seconds too late. He plunged his hands into the water though in the slight hope of finding something under the surface, we were that close. As the boat slid quickly up to the spot where we last sighted the arms, all of us plunged our arms into the water in a remote hope and as I grasped at the dirty water I touched something hard. I grabbed and clutched in vain as the momentum of the boat quickly tore whatever was in my hands away.

I fixed my stare at the spot in the water and watched it slide behind the boat as my mind worked in slow motion. The only thing I remember clearly of that thought process was pulling up my Eagle scout lifesaving merit badge of some forty years ago, my mile swim awards of forty years ago, and the single thought of now or never. Over the edge I went, fully clothed and probably a bag of moo ping in my pocket. By the time I hit the water, the boat was a good twenty yards past the spot and still moving fast.

I did my best Australian crawl in an adrenaline frenzy keeping focused on the spot where I thought the arms went down. Once there, I threw my legs out, searching for contact with anything below the surface. Nothing. Nothing. So a deep breath and down. I went down under the surface and threw out arms and legs, hoping to find a needle in a haystack. I must have been under a good 24 inches but felt like I was doing a deep sea dive. Up for air, and thinking its too late, too long, and the chances are so small. On the other hand, the boat is gone and I have nothing better to do right now, so lets try deeper. Down I went. I swam down until I felt the temperature change, while I like to think it was ten feet deep, probably was about four (at most). When I felt the change I threw out arms and legs and tried to feel around. In case you are interested, I determined that day that visibility in the Chao Phraya is about 7 millimeters on a clear day. Opening your eyes in that filth is an experiment in disease opportunity while exploring shades of brown.

So, doing my typical tourist thrashing in the middle of the worlds filthiest river on a warm sunny day in Bangkok, I grabbed a shirt. The second I touched that fabric my hand closed like a vice that I never knew I had. I gripped that shirt with an iron fist completely unlike the soft chubby fingers that type this heroic tale. The adrenaline closed on that man and we headed up. Breaking the surface, I pulled him up and for the first time had a look at the owner of those stiff arms. He was limp in my hand, quite elderly with wispy white hair and his face was lax. My first thought was "too late" when a huge amount of foul nam Phraya poured out of his nose and mouth. Still limp in my hand, I held his head above the water and began treading frantically to keep us both afloat.

As the andrenaline began to recede, and I looked around, it quickly occured to me that I was in the middle of the river holding up a dead weight and tired beyond comprehension. It was not a good position and in the next few seconds I might be successful in turning a single tragedy into a double tragedy. Wondering if my wallet was still in some pocket so that they might identify my remains after a week or so in the river and mention it to the embassy, I began searching for my long tail. I finally spotted it, some seven miles away (about 100 yards), still in the process of beginning the turn. While they might be able to really get up and go in a straight line, they obviously are not designed for serious cornering. When I saw that the boat had not even made the corner, I took quick inventory of my energy level and decided that I was going to die. After all, I had just swam about 20 yards, dove down twice, pulled a man up about 2 feet, tread water for almost 10 seconds before I came to the immediate understanding that I was no longer 14 years old and years of typing might have improved my grip but not my stamina. I will admit though, it never occurred to me to evict my passenger. I would like to say that it was because of some altruistic or heroic decision but the reality of it is that throughout the entire process I dont think I made one conscious decision.

So I held him and paddled madly for as best I can tell four or five days (maybe four or five minutes). With my nose just barely above the sewer level, I did not see the long tail come back but instead saw the ring buoy drop within inches of me. I grabbed that ring and literally stuffed that old man into the center and in one flat second he was gone, whipped into that boat like a tuna on a winch. Somehow, and to this day I dont know how, I managed to swim the 10 feet to the boat and grab the side.

I will never forget that experience of grabbing the boat. I have never been so done in my life, I would have gladly ridden back to shore hanging right there. It was all I could do to keep my head above water and the only thought I remember was "you aint fourteen any more, idiot....". As I hung there, the captain reached down and grabbed my collar. He lifted me one handed like a raggedy Andy and dropped me in the seat under the engine. The next thought was, never ever never ever get into a fight with a Thai. Never had a kid pick up a fat old man with one extended arm and crane drop them in a forward seat.

So I laid back on the floor and noticed how incredibly beautiful the sky was, was a rich hue of blue. I noticed my glasses were gone, I was pretty sure my shoes were gone, and I bet my moo ping was history too. I hoped my wallet was still there but had no way of telling. It was all the way in my pocket and that would involve moving my arms, completely out of the question. So I laid there and watched the captain manhandle that V8 back to the rice barge. They handed over the old man up at the bow, he was limp but not dead. We cast off and continued on the route.

After about thirty minutes, I found myself able to sit up and take inventory. Shoes and glasses gone, wallet intact, hotel key intact, cigarettes unsmokable (the biggest tragedy at the moment), passport rather nasty but still in pocket, breath mints unsalvageable, moo ping gone, still alive and hopefully a bit smarter.

I was able to exit the boat at some stop, it was a while before I had the strength to stand. Shoeless, reeking, five cabs refused me before I found one jai dee enough to get me back to my hotel. Yes, I gave him a huge tip and I hope it covered the cab cleaning.

I was sick for a week, eye infection for a few days. Always wondered what happened to the old man, hope he got a chance to play with a few more grandkids. Would I do it again? Hard to know, I hope today I am smarter than yesterday but in the end, not much thought process to the whole event. You either do, or dont do, but you seldom get the luxury of thinking about it.

So thats my story, I hope it reads better than "stupid fat tourist jumps off boat, swims five feet for an incredibly remote chance to find someone under the water and almost drowns in the process". After all, I have had ten years to work on the story.

[cdnvic]

Respect to you on two levels Busman... For risking your own life to save someone else's, and for writing one heck of a great story.

Well done on both counts

[Daewoo]

So thats my story, I hope it reads better than "stupid fat tourist jumps off boat, swims five feet for an incredibly remote chance to find someone under the water and almost drowns in the process". After all, I have had ten years to work on the story.

Good karma to you xbusman... you really are 'the man'

Cheers,

Daewoo

[TAWP]

I cannot swim well enough to be allowed to order soup in a restaurant but even as such I would to what I could to the limit of my ability to help the person. The OP doesn't mention details and not always do you need to dive in to be able to help. Most of the times I have fallen in or had to help others falling in is from cliff-sides or landing-stage for boats, as I sailed a lot in my younger years.

So the question isn't if you are able to swim, it is if you are man enough to help.

[Sir Burr]

it is if you are man enough to help.

A good attitude to get yourself killed.

Knowledge is the key.

[TAWP]

it is if you are man enough to help.

A good attitude to get yourself killed.

Knowledge is the key.

Perhaps you didn't read my whole post. Try it next time.

If you don't realise you can help in many ways then I pity you.

Edited October 2, 2007 by TAWP

[Payboy]

If you were walking along a beach in Thailand and you saw a person drowning in the water would you help them or would you pretend you had not seen them and keep walking?

Id throw them a boy !

i'd give them a lifesaver...

[Sir Burr]

Perhaps you didn't read my whole post. Try it next time.

I did read your whole post.

"Being man enough" is absolutely the wrong attitude when it comes to all aspects of safety. It will get you into trouble.

The safety industry has been trying to get rid of this attitude for years, correctly recognizing that it is an important cause of accidents. In the energy industry, they have pretty much succeeded in getting rid of it and replacing it with knowledge.

[TAWP]

So you decided to focus on 3 words that you read into the wrong context, fine.

So what would you call someone that see's a person in distress that he can help but choses not too? Heck, often it's as easy as trowing a life-ring from a boat-bridge...which you would know if you where a sailor.

[Jai Dee]

Would the mods PLEEZE add an "N" to "drowing" in the thread title????

Englihs Teecher from Isaan

TT

Done.

[Sir Burr]

So you decided to focus on 3 words that you read into the wrong context, fine.

So what would you call someone that see's a person in distress that he can help but choses not too? Heck, often it's as easy as trowing a life-ring from a boat-bridge...which you would know if you where a sailor.

Three very dangerous words as you should know if you are a sailor. I work at sea and have done for the last thirty years.

Throwing a life-ring comes under "knowledge" not "being man enough".

[TAWP]

Since too many people walk away from others neding help, even when they could help, I disagree and label it as such.

[ColPyat]

People are assuming a lot in what I said. I said you approach a conscious person from the rear, which is exactly what they teach in lifeguarding. If they are under enough of their own control to keep turning and facing you then they more than likely aren't drowning, merely panicked. If the person can control themselves this well you might be better off to try verbally instructing them.

Sorry to disagree here. When they are panicking - that is already assumed that they are drowning, and there is no way to quiet somebody in that stage down. This is the most dangerous stage of a swimmer in trouble - that is when he pulls you down out of raw survival instinct.

If you arrive any later - there is on an ocean little that can be done, because as soon as he went down, breathing stopped, oxygen flow to the brain will stop, and then it's a race against time. If you can't reach the shore within one or two minutes, and succeed in reanimating the person, it will leave him brain damaged - the longer it takes, the more damage. In this hot climate brain damage sets in very quick.

Re-animation isn't easy either, especially after an exhausting safe chances are that you don't have the physical power anymore to do that.

What you want is arrive when he panics, stay out of the swimmer's reach, throw him a shirt or your trunks he can grab on, so he won't grab you, wait until he is completely exhausted, and then grab him.

And for any would be savior - think about your own strength. The way back to shore is far more exhausting than the way to the swimmer. Most people here get into trouble because they got caught in a riptide, and exhausted themselves trying to fight it instead of just going with it while lightly swimming parallel to the beach to safe energy until the rip exhausted it's strength and approach the beach then from a different position.

A would be savior has to calculate this in, and not make the same mistake of fighting a riptide while trying to come back in. Otherwise one swimmer in trouble turns into two.

Before attempting to rescue somebody one should use his brain, and think very carefully what the dangers are, and about your own strength. It is of nobody's use to turn into another casualty.

Most people who get into trouble did because of inexperience and ignorance.

-When there are surfers out playing with the waves, doesn't mean that you can swim safely. Rip tides don't affect surfers hat badly, naturally, and surfers mostly know what they do, and are a lot fitter.

-Rip tides can pull you out even when the water is only knee deep.

-If you don't know, or they are not marked, just ask the locals where they are.

-If there are no swimming signs, then don't swim, these signs are there for a reason.

-know what to do when caught in a riptide. Don't exhaust yourself fighting it, even if you are only a few meters from the beach, just stay calm, and swim parallel, and when out of it approach the beach again.

-use the waves coming in, they can push you

Edited October 2, 2007 by ColPyat

[meemiathai]

I'd certainly try to help, and would hope that those who couldn't would at least call for help. Anyone who pretended not to notice deserves to have the same fate as the victim.

I agree, unless they were Canadian or Australian - then i would put my foot on their head

That's nice to know -- don't have to waste any time on saving you if I see you in the water. :-P

sorry i meant guys - i would save a canadiangirl

You have to fight me first!

[meemiathai]

That's why you grab drowning people from behind, so they can't grab at you.

Easier said than done. The safest option is still to wait it out.

If it is a pretty girl I will go in in front and let her grab hold of me, stay there for an hour and wait until she feels comfortable.

If it was a katoey I would then go in from behind.

Different people different tactics.

Edited October 2, 2007 by meemiathai

[meemiathai]

That's why you grab drowning people from behind, so they can't grab at you.

Easier said than done. The safest option is still to wait it out.

How come every time people are dying, your advice is to wait?

Because a long time ago, when i was still young and a lot fitter i used to make my money doing that job.

Any more questions?

Did you like being a waiter?

That is funny!

But I think Colpyat advice is quite correct. Of course for women and children, it would be easy to control the situation. But if a six foot four farang Muay Thai fighter who can't swim is in the water, you better think twice before going in.

[GuestHouse]

I've got three drowning stories.

Drowning Story 1. I once pulled a child out of the pool of the Amari Hotel in Pattaya - Perhaps 8 years old, he was definitely drowning and I just happened to spot him struggling below the surface. His mother had gone off to the wash room and returned just as I was carrying him out of the water - She went crazy, and I think had it not been for others at the poolside who had seen what is going on she'd have been calling the police to have me arrested. There's a lesson to be learned there.

Drowning Story 2. While at a party by the poolside of the Royal Dusit Hotel in Pattaya a waiter suddenly barged past me and jumped in the water. He pulled a young girl out of the water who was drowning less than 2 meters from where I and other adults where standing – Drowning is a very quiet way to die. And there is a lesson in there too.

Drowning Story No 3. While on holiday on Phuket I was sitting on the beach when suddenly I heard my wife, who was swimming in the sea, scream. I ran over to find out what the problem was – she had swum right into a dead body.

Me and others dragged the body to the beach and a Dutch guy who was a doctor checked her over and said she was dead. We carried her off the beach and someone fetched a sheet to put over her while others comforted her husband.

Twenty minutes later a Thai ambulance rolled up, the doctor and nurses uncovered the body and proceeded to fit it up with an intravenous drip.

And there is definitely a lesson to be learned there.

[meemiathai]

I can't believe the ignorance & arrogance of some people.

It's very easy to sit in your nice, safe, cosy armchair & belittle others for not wanting to risk their own life to help another.

I've been in situations (as I chose) whereby I have performed first aid at car accidents & I have actually rescued someone from drowning. I guarantee you that I will, at all costs, try to avoid being in these situations again. Not only is it highly stressful but it's very bloody dangerous.

And to all of those people who are dishing out the simplicities of "water safety", have you got a "water safety" certificate or a Bronze Medallion, issued from a regulatory authority? If you have, good. If you haven't, zip it!

It is compulsory in Australia for all school children to undergo "lifesaving". There are (or was) 4 levels of achievement, the Bronze Medallion being the highest. One of the things you learn about is "approaching" a swimmer in distress. I can't believe that one poster said, "That's why you grab drowning people from behind, so they can't grab at you." The problem with this is that 9.9 times out of 10, the distressed swimmer will see you coming (unless you can swim like a dolphin). Believe it or not, one of the methods used to prevent the distressed swimmer from drowning you, is to punch them in the mouth.

Anyway, all of this "helping people in distress" is silly unless you are prepared to be a part of their distress & unless you can actually do something to really help them. If you can't help, sit it out & keep out of the way.

And I bet those sitting in nice, safe, cozy armchair belittling others aren't the ones who are saving lives everyday as a job!

[meemiathai]

In Phuket, high waves, I splashed around a bit, I consider myself a good swimmer but stayed very close to the shore as I had felt myself being pulled out strongly, the only guy next to me (Hi Bruce) got in trouble when he went no more than 2 or 3 meters further out. I could see he was a good swimmer but just couldn't make it back in a straight line to the shore, he was being pulled out to sea. I just stood there until lifes guards came to rescue him a few minutes later. They did a fine job with a surfboard, cable and a jeep. There was no point in me putting myself in the same situation he was in and creating the need for a 2nd rescue where one of both may not have made it.

Had conditions been different I would have pulled him out.

Sorry but was it typing error? Are you sure you meant Phuket? I thought there were no life-guards in Thailand and even if there were they were just there for show? But now you even say they did a fine job? I am very confused.

[meemiathai]

Believe it or not, one of the methods used to prevent the distressed swimmer from drowning you, is to punch them in the mouth.

When i was trained that was only advised to the really big blokes, or to use it when the swimmer was a lot smaller than you. I was taught to best let the swimmer half drown, and then pull him out.

Fortunately i never had to safe somebody who was drowning, i only had to pull people out who have injured themselves, which is a lot easier because they were incapable of doing much.

Nowadays i would think twice before jumping in, especially in an ocean, because i am not as fit as i was once.

On the occasion that I rescued someone, it took me 2 attempts because they were really struggling. On the 1st attempt, I did manage to spin them around so they wouldn't grab me (it was a fight to do that) & then I tried to use the "chin carry" but every time they got the tiniest bit of water in their mouth, they went berserk. It was then that I had to stop & use the side-stroke "hip carry". It's much easier because you actually have the swimmer in a sort of head-lock...they feel more secure & don't struggle as much.

I think you're right...let them half drown first before you grab 'em.

Holding the chin is only good for unconscious patients. For the conscious ones, holding the breast make them feel more secure.