Running from debts

[Alai gordai]

My brother is keen to leave the Uk and wants to have a go at working/living in Thailand.He has spent several years there previously.

He is trying to sell his houseto raise funds, but to no avail.

Against my advice he is considering taking out a secured loan against the house and leaving with the money.

He seems to think that as long as he does not return to the Uk he will be Ok in Thailand. Does anyone know anyone who has done similar? Could he be pursued overseas by the credit company? Will these debts have any effect when he reapplies for his tourist or non-immigrant visa?

Any advice gratefully taken on Board

[sevinnow]

When you take a secured loan on property the finance company will only give you a percentage of the true value so if you default they are guaranteed their investment when the house is sold even after reposession, usually the percentage is about 80%....ie House worth £100,000 less oustanding mortgage £50,000  the 80% equates to £40,000 secured loan.

The problem is when the coucil tax is not paid as it is still in your brothers name , this could result in a criminal offence not to pay, and can in some cases end in a warrant issused for his arrest.

Secondly a non payment of a loan agreement is only a civil offence not a criminal offence unless it was obtained by deception .....ie.. incorrect information was given on the application form when applying for the loan.....so make sure your brother covers his back on that one.

Thirdly it would be very rare for a credit company to persue an individual abroad unless the amount was huge...anyway where do they start looking?  unless your brother has told the world where he is going!!

Finally on the visa situation no financial checks are made on an individual without his permission everyone is protected by the Data Protection Act and the Embassy is not looking for loan dodgers only those with a criminal record.

Thailand is full of farangs who have "Done a runner" so I am sure he will feel at home....!

Just get him to cross the "t"s and dot the "i"s

Sev

[Alai gordai]

Many Thanks for that! But I will still try to dissuade him

Cheers

[keestha]

Tell your brother to look down the road a couple of more years. Some day, his UK passport will expire and he will need to apply for a new one. Besides that, he should be familiar with the expression "to burn the bridges".

[sevinnow]

For what it is worth, you can renew a British passport at any British Embassy abroad providing you have the original one to hand in, you do not need to come back to the UK.

Or he could get a new 10 year one before he left.

Sev :cool:

[MaiChai]

Funny way to sell a house; can't he leave it in the capable hands of an estate agent, and wait till it sells? You should never burn your bridges, so to speak. The money you get from a house sale may not last you the rest of your life, and there may be a time when you wish to return to the UK. Also, it might be better to let it appreciate, and live off the income it can generate by renting it out. Even if you have a large mortgage on it, the rent should cover the mortgage, and if it doesn't you can probably re-mortgage or adjust the payments (say over a longer period) so that they do. So it seems a little rash to me.

[sevinnow]

Agree with MaiChai,   there is some other motive behind the "brother's" reason to recoupe some quick money and make a dash to the border so as to speak.

But the answer to his question was in my first reply everthing eles written is on moral and emotive feelings.

Rest my case

Sev

:cool:

[wolf5370]

All the morales aside. I would suggest he at least makes a few loan payments. If he takes it and runs, they could say he took the loan with the intension of keeping it - this could be interpreted as fraud, money by deception or possibly even theft. A criminal record or outstanding warrant to cause problems later.

He could always burn the house down and claim on the insurance - Joke.

Why can he not sell his house? Could he not just reduce the price for a quick sale, or is this just an excuse he is giving you ion the hope you'll forgive his theft?

[Alai gordai]

Thanks all for the interesting viewpoints/ideas.

I've convinced him (hopefully) against his original plan.

As he has some equity in the house, ,he's going for a secured loan still, and intends to rent the property out, apparently the revenue from renting will cover mortgage+Loan.

btw it really is my brother, not me ::

Thanks

[maxpower]

Beware ! airport tracking systems now have fast access to huge databases and often use data supplied from ticket bookings. Example, your booking in Thai can be picked up and checked by UK authorities before you even step on the plane. This was put in place to help track the movements of terrorists but these very powerful systems are also being used to quickly check for anyone with fraud or CCJ warrants.

You have to be very careful these days, IT systems are all talking to each other.

People usually get the surprise when trying to sneak back into the UK or do business at the Embassy.

[sevinnow]

Sorry Max Power, but you are very wrong.

No Data base is held on individuals regarding CCJ's (County Court Judgements) travelling from one Country to another, that is protected by the Data Protection Act 1974, so please check your facts before posting non relevant quotes.

The credit files are not open to any Embassy on an individual unless the Foriegn office has a justisfiable case to over rule that power because of intelligence obtained by major deception.......A mere CCJ does not and will not make the authorities take an expensive and detail investigation into a simple civil matter!

So put down your Mr Sherlock Holmes Book

Sev

???

[maxpower]

No Data base is held on individuals regarding CCJ's (County Court Judgements)

Yes it is does come under the data protection act but as you and I know it is available to those that need it. The data protection act stops data being abused and falling into the wrong hands.

FACT: October 2002 - Offshore worker known to me was stopped and questioned at Heathrow Airport over accusations of fraud and deception during marriage break up. Admittedly this guy has a shady past, but when later interviewed by us we were amazed at the information police had presented to this guy.

BTW I did not say there was information stored that specifically related CCJ,s and travel info. What I am saying is this - if travel name = x and passport number = y and info stored = z then stop and question this guy.

Scope of Data Protection act can be found here

http://www.dataprotection.gov.uk/

[sevinnow]

Approx 3,400 CCJ's are registered every day through the County Court and a further 200 are issued through the High Court. Alot of data on alot of people.

But back to the guy's original question will he be persued abroad?  Answer No, unless there was a case of deception and the police were notified.

A debt other wise is a Civil matter and not a criminal offence ( God knows how many prisions we would need if it was a criminal offence) so even if they persued him what chance of getting any money out of him would they have!

No, the only option they would take is to issued a Bankruptsy Order on him but even then it would only remain on file because they have to personally give the order in person, not a bad job for someone I guess travelling round the world with bit's of paper searching the bars of patong and pattaya!!!

Still you have some good points Max

Sev

[MrSam]

I've got to agree with the passport thing. It's eventually going to expire, and unless he completely gives up his right to British citizenship, he'll have to go back or at least go to the embassy to get a new one (can you do that at the Brit embassy?). Chances are he will get caught. Best thing to do it save enough to get here and get started, find a decent job here, and everything will work out.

[ukguy]

Approx 3,400 CCJ's are registered every day through the County Court and a further 200 are issued through the High Court. Alot of data on alot of people.

But back to the guy's original question will he be persued abroad?  Answer No, unless there was a case of deception and the police were notified.

A debt other wise is a Civil matter and not a criminal offence ( God knows how many prisions we would need if it was a criminal offence) so even if they persued him what chance of getting any money out of him would they have!

No, the only option they would take is to issued a Bankruptsy Order on him but even then it would only remain on file because they have to personally give the order in person, not a bad job for someone I guess travelling round the world with bit's of paper searching the bars of patong and pattaya!!!

Still you have some good points Max

Sev

If the Court or Debt Collection Agency cannot find the person to hand him the Bankrupty Order they can advertise the Bankrupty Order in the local press and failure to pay the debt by the date of the court hearing will result in the person being Bankrupt in his or her absence.

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Major data bases are not available to lawyers or credit protection agencies. They are Government things. Has your brother considered simple bankruptcy ? A lot less problems.

[Bulldog]

Do what you wanna do, you are dead a long time!

Dont worry about warrants and the old bill in England, whats the worse that can happen?

Get done for fraud! Spend a bit of time in a Cat 'B' local nick, .then get shipped out to some open nick like  H.M.P. FORD, get well fed, work over in the farms and gardens dept, use the library, play table tennis , bowls, football,  use the gym, come out a lot fitter than you went in, lovely jubbly.

[Begs]

Bulldog,

You appear to know the ropes of the H.M.P. service, a spot of Table tennis followed by a game of lawn bowls at H.M.P. Ford, hehe, bit different to Thailands jails thats for sure.

I am surprised this thread was not bombarded with posts of information, just about every farang i know done the banks and credit cards before leaving Europe.  

???

[KevinN]

Boy,The brits must really have some laws protecting the rich,do you still have debtors prison?

In the USA if he hocked his house and never made a payment or filled up his credit cards and then left,tough shit.

Hocking the house is a secured loan and they took that as a surity that he would pay or they would have the house and not loose any money.

If he topped up from the cash on the credit cards,there is nothing they could do legaly except harass him for the money as it is not secured,some folks run their credit cards up and worry about it and listen to banks and hock the house to pay them off,then if times get tougher they lose the house because it is a secured loan, no financial manager will ever advise getting a secured loan to pay off an unsecured one, they have no recoarse as they gave you the credit cards because they trusted you,..

[oldbamboo]

Been there done that!

In retrospect after selling off all my property and belongings I am now back and forth to the UK after a wonderful couple of years in LOS. I just would not conform to the extortionate rate of tax I would have had to pay in Thailand. It is tough to earn a reasonable wage and if you do you get taxed, shed loads of dough. Realistically I should have rented my property and made a remortgage to get some travelling money but secured the mortgage repayments by means of a tenant. The house I sold, sold for £27k more 9 months after I sold it!

I am living back with the olds at the moment, which is no fun at 35.

Be warned!

[parryhandy]

Boy,The brits must really have some laws protecting the rich,do you still have debtors prison?

In the USA if he hocked his house and never made a payment or filled up his credit cards and then left,tough shit.

Hocking the house is a secured loan and they took that as a surity that he would pay or they would have the house and not loose any money.

If he topped up from the cash on the credit cards,there is nothing they could do legaly except harass him for the money as it is not secured,some folks run their credit cards up and worry about it and listen to banks and hock the house to pay them off,then if times get tougher they lose the house because it is a secured loan, no financial manager will ever advise getting a secured loan to pay off an unsecured one, they have no recoarse as they gave you the credit cards because they trusted you,..

Its exactly the same in england . Credit cards are unsecured loans so unless you have lied to them to obtain one (fraud) they have no powers to actually make you pay.Any unsecured loans under 20000 pounds with any particular bank , credit card company etc.. they will not even investigate.It is not worth the cost when alls said and done you may have spent it anyway.

P.s they have no way of finding you in england never mind Thailand if you are not on the electoral role.

I lived with a friend for a while who went bankrupt after his business failed .Before he actually went under he basically took as much as he could credit wise because it does not matter what the amount is.He spent 3 mins in bankruptcy court and that was it.For 3 years he can only earn so much without telling the courts and cannot have a bank account etc.. and then after he can start again.He actually became landlord of a pub straight after bankruptcy but everything was in his girlfriends name.

[tomy]

everything is clear in 7-10 year, criminal record will be lock up, no one can access the file, unless a major felony like murder. credit card company will clear you out, start as new again. that's in California. don't know about England