How Is Your Thai Spouse Perceived In Society?

[fletchsmile]

By many objective criteria I believe my wife and our household would be viewed as Middle Class or Upper Middle Class.

FBN posted an interesting survey on the average Mr & Mrs Thai in BKK, which has a pdf file attached to it.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=146716

On all these objective criteria, my wife and our household would rank towards the top end. eg

Only 24% of households earn over THB 35k

Only 7% of households save over THB 10k per month

52% of households own their own propery

57% don't have a computer

Only 28% of households have a credit card

Education is also discussed; etc

I appreciate that many of these are material items, and there's more to life than money. But they are at least objective criteria as some sort of benchmark.

So I showed her the survey, in an attempt to highlight how good she has it married to me . I was also worried by Soundman's post where his wife doesn't get his dinner any more, and didn't want that trend developing, so again thought it worth highlighting. In fact the only criteria we seem to be below average on is number of children (one daughter vs 1.8 average - again BKK not up country), so I also emphasized that, and said we have some work to do tonight.

OK Getting back to the point:

Many Thais married to foreigners would actually be middle or even upper middle class based on objective criteria such as these. One key criteria that seems to regularly mark Thai spouses down is simply that they are married to a foreigner. There are a few more, I think, but even if they weren't marked down for those, I think the foreigner link would always mark them down . What's your view?

Edited October 7, 2007 by fletchthai68

[londonthai]

my thai spouse is a focus point of my family and everybody is proud of her, despite she being from the poor farmers family and a very little formally educated but bright and with many good skills.

there are only 2 classes in the society - the rulling class and the working class, it's a self-delusion that you (or her) now belong to anywhere else than the working class. I understand that you feel better for it - but you are as much slawe to the wages as I and the great majority of the population

[fletchsmile]

my thai spouse is a focus point of my family and everybody is proud of her, ...

Interest point, seeing as I think you are basd in UK. I would say exactly the same about my family's thoughts about my wife.

In the UK, I believe we're perceived more objectively. I'm not so sure in Thailand...

[solo siam]

Why does it matter?

There seems to be a lot of these my wifes "middle-so", "hi-so", "an accountant", "a generals daughter" or "a princess" type of posts. Really it feels like people are overly trying to prove a point, which actually points to the opposite.

I can't recall what anyone of my friends wives or girlfriends do back in the UK.

[GuestHouse]

Threads like this don't do my attempts to regulate my intake of salt any good.

[endure]

Posts have been deleted. Rule 2 states:

"3) Religious or racial slurs, rude and degrading comments towards women, or extremely negative views of Thailand will not be tolerated."

Be nice, people.

[Aussietraveller]

The views of my wifes family, about her, since we have been married, are more based on the person that she is now, rather than the possessions or money we have.

She is from Northern Thailand, and from a fairly typical farming family.

Since we have been together, we have traveled extensively, and she has seen a few different cultures and countries.

She is more confident in expressing her opinion, and telling people what she thinks.

She can appreciate the shortcomings of Thailand, and also see the good points.

She has a desire to travel and experience new things.

How does society perceive her?

I do not care, and i do not think she does either.

In Thailand unfortunately, a lot of Thai peoples perception of her will be clouded as she is married to a "farang".

They will make assumptions about her past, and about her rank in society.

The only people whose opinions matter to us are our family and friends.

[fletchsmile]

Thought it best to self edit my last post. Think the thread will go nowhere...

My mistake ... I do make them sometimes

Edited October 7, 2007 by fletchthai68

[jetjock]

It has been interesting reading all the TV topics recently with farangs talking about class eg. hi-so. lo-so, working class, etc. I was wondering if this preoccupation with class is more of a British concern as I must admit that I do not totally understand it ?? I am an American and in all my years cannot ever remember a disussion or concern with anyone about someone's class in society until I went on TV. I was aware that the English were more class conscious but had never noticed it on my trips there and thought perhaps mistakingly that it had pretty much subsided in the UK. I understand that the class system is still more alive in so called third world countries and perhaps even somewhat in Thailand but I admit that I have been a bit surprised about all the talk and what might be even construed as a hangup about class from farangs in Thailand. It is interesting reading anyway and I am slowly learning that class is still a hot subject with people from some parts of the world.

(edited for spelling)

Edited October 7, 2007 by jetjock

[Neeranam]

OK Getting back to the point:

Many Thais married to foreigners would actually be middle or even upper middle class based on objective criteria such as these. One key criteria that seems to regularly mark Thai spouses down is simply that they are married to a foreigner. There are a few more, I think, but even if they weren't marked down for those, I think the foreigner link would always mark them down . What's your view?

My view is that I've got much more important things to be concerned about.

Do you get invited out by Thais for a beer often?

Also, what do you mean by 'society'?

My Thai spouse was surely percieved differently by the members of the royal bangkok sports club last Friday than the family of 20 farmers that we met at the roadside restaurant outside Khorat. Whose perception is more important?

Edited October 7, 2007 by Neeranam

[eek]

It has been interesting reading all the TV topics recently with farangs talking about class eg. hi-so. lo-so, working class, etc. I was wondering if this preoccupation with class is more of a British concern as I must admit that I do not totally understand it ?? I am an American and in all my years cannot ever remember a disussion or concern with anyone about someone's class in society until I went on TV. I was aware that the English were more class conscious but had never noticed it on my trips there and thought perhaps mistakingly that it had pretty much subsided in the UK. I understand that the class system is still more alive in so called third world countries and perhaps even somewhat in Thailand but I admit that I have been a bit surprised about all the talk and what might be even construed as a hangup about class from farangs in Thailand. It is interesting reading anyway and I am slowly learning that class is still a hot subject with people from some parts of the world.

(edited for spelling)

Slightly puzzled by the notion that you would say USA has no class distinction/associations/consciousness, etc. Maybe the distinction is hidden under various politically correct terminology umbrellas? But i find it hard to believe that say, for example..Nelly or Tommy Lee etc, would be invited to the White House (rather bizarre example..sorry about that just nothing much springs to mind atm). I think to some degree we are all class and status conscious but how we behave with others despite this consciousness is how we show our true colours.

For the record i have no real interest in this thread, so im sorry to pull it slightly off-topic, just that jetjocks comment attracted my attention.

[londonthai]

meaning of class devision is quite strong in the UK, there is still monarchy and aristocracy as well as strong proletarian traditions back to the 19th century.

the different story might be in the usa, where on the whole less people do understand class devision within the society and everybody tries to believe that they do belong to one of the 'middle' classes and that there is no a separate political upper class.

in thailand political concious is almost non existant and social understanding is still strongly influenced by the religion and tradition dating back thousands years ago to the hindu cast system

[kiakaha]

my wife and i deliberately go out of our way to give off a facade that disguises our true socio-economic standing.

AFAIC, covert gives you more power than overt.

[GuestHouse]

in thailand political concious is almost non existant and social understanding is still strongly influenced by the religion and tradition dating back thousands years ago to the hindu cast system

I would agree with that, but I'd also go furhter - Thais are incredibly class concious, as concious of their own standing in the rankings of Thai society as they are of the standing of others.

I'm always amazed by the way Thais pick up and then react to the social class signals. Introduce Thais or be present when Thais are come into contact with fellow Thais of a different class and their change in behaviour is remarkable. Not just behaviour but also language, poise and mannerisms.

I have yet to see a Thai that does not do this and I am very skeptical of foreigners who claim Thais they know do not.

[tingtong]

My Thai spouse was surely percieved differently by the members of the royal bangkok sports club last Friday than the family of 20 farmers that we met at the roadside restaurant outside Khorat. Whose perception is more important?

very good point. i really dont care much what the 'society' thinks about us, as far as we are happy.

Sure, she is from the working class, 'low-so', if you like....the matter that now she is 'not so-low'.

some will always look down on us, in the other hand, some will always be jealous.

C'est la vie!

[Suszzy]

Why does it matter?

There seems to be a lot of these my wifes "middle-so", "hi-so", "an accountant", "a generals daughter" or "a princess" type of posts. Really it feels like people are overly trying to prove a point, which actually points to the opposite.

I can't recall what anyone of my friends wives or girlfriends do back in the UK.

exactly..!

why are some people so obsessed with the social class in Thailand?

it doesn't matter, does it?

[geriatrickid]

in thailand political concious is almost non existant and social understanding is still strongly influenced by the religion and tradition dating back thousands years ago to the hindu cast system

I would agree with that, but I'd also go furhter - Thais are incredibly class concious, as concious of their own standing in the rankings of Thai society as they are of the standing of others.

I'm always amazed by the way Thais pick up and then react to the social class signals. Introduce Thais or be present when Thais are come into contact with fellow Thais of a different class and their change in behaviour is remarkable. Not just behaviour but also language, poise and mannerisms.

I have yet to see a Thai that does not do this and I am very skeptical of foreigners who claim Thais they know do not.

A very insightful observation, that will be ignored by those that don't want to accept the reality. A wise farang does not attempt to buck that system but instead adapts to it and does not try to impose his or her's country of origins views on the subject.

[fletchsmile]

in thailand political concious is almost non existant and social understanding is still strongly influenced by the religion and tradition dating back thousands years ago to the hindu cast system

I would agree with that, but I'd also go furhter - Thais are incredibly class concious, as concious of their own standing in the rankings of Thai society as they are of the standing of others.

I'm always amazed by the way Thais pick up and then react to the social class signals. Introduce Thais or be present when Thais are come into contact with fellow Thais of a different class and their change in behaviour is remarkable. Not just behaviour but also language, poise and mannerisms.

I have yet to see a Thai that does not do this and I am very skeptical of foreigners who claim Thais they know do not.

A very insightful observation, that will be ignored by those that don't want to accept the reality. A wise farang does not attempt to buck that system but instead adapts to it and does not try to impose his or her's country of origins views on the subject.

Agree with the last couple of posts. They restored my faith a little in the posters we have here on TV, as did the mods, deleting the posts of the less mature members who feel a need to hijack threads with their insults, and limited understanding of Thailand .

Personally I don't worry about class, nor do I judge people by it. However, it is a large part of Thai society as you guys have highlighted. Hence, my post and interest in understanding more. For the people who say "what does it matter?" I'd simply say "how interested are you in understanding the country around you"? No need to be worried by it, but I think it's worth understanding more.

As foreigners we're not really going to belong to any Thai class either, so on another level there's not much to worry. Its interesting though we can freely mix and be tolerated at most levels of Thai society, and most people of whatever background tolerate our presence, at least to our face. I've dealt with Thais at all levels here in my time in Thailand, and have always been interested in the points noted by the last couple of posts. Thais tho' have their place, and hence you get terms like "integration group" when we mix up different parts of their society.

Your Thai spouse may/may not strongly feel they still belong to parts of Thai society, but in marrying them, have you changed their position in society? and does it matter? Personally I'm interesed in that, as I want to understand my wife as much as possible. (Yes I know us guys are on to a loser with trying to understand any woman let alone a Thai ) While she is generally open-minded and sees people more and more each day for who they are, there's still a few decades of the Thai views and traits highlighted above. She does behave differently in the presence of different people, but more and more is becoming just herself (whatever that is).

Part of it for me I think is a throw back to centuries of history. But the UK outgrew its Feudal system which has parallels in some ways to the Thai Sakdina ways. I am curious to what extent foreigners have influenced/are influencing this. Why has Thailand not outgrown this period.? Will it ever?

I'd disagree with the post from the American above, about the British being class-minded. Where I grew up in the UK it was pretty much a classless society. Sure there were royals and super-rich, but not really where I lived. Some had less money than others, but were still essentially all the same (middle) class. Someone else also said above there is essentially ony working class and the elite. So whether you call them working class or middle class, there is mainly one majority class on this level at least in the UK. Tho' some woud argue economic policies sometimes create an "underclass".

For me it is only when I came to Asia adecade or so ago, that I started seeing real class differences. I saw some in London, and think it's interesting to draw parallels with Bangkok as capital cities, but even London was not on the scale here.

Middle class Britain is the majority in most cities/towns, outside perhaps London. Here in Thailand for example, as the survey pointed out in their defining middle class, they used mainly BKK, acknowledging that the majority of the country is poorer. So with say 10-15mio middle class (maximum - actually much less if you really quantified) out of a population of 60mio+ that highlights a big diff to the UK with a similar population. (BTW I'm not saying there are no middle class Thais up country, just they are very few).

People up country in Thailand may live in more homogenous groups compared to BKK. But have you ever considered the impact of your being there? To what extent do you think it alters how you and your wife are treated/ perceived. What do you think the implications are, when you have a very small middle class in the country (even BKK), and Mr. or Mrs farang then starts to distort it with his/her Thai spouse? Any connections with the anti-foreigner feeling people sometimes claim.....

OK enough of my thoughts,... I was more interested in other people's views, but have enjoyed some of the posts above, since the mods intervened, so cheers,

Edited October 8, 2007 by fletchthai68

[onnut]

I am the working class and my wife is the ruling class

[meadish_sweetball]

People up country in Thailand may live in more homogenous groups compared to BKK. But have you ever considered the impact of your being there? To what extent do you think it alters how you and your wife are treated/ perceived. What do you think the implications are, when you have a very small middle class in the country (even BKK), and Mr. or Mrs farang then starts to distort it with his/her Thai spouse? Any connections with the anti-foreigner feeling people sometimes claim.....

As long as the Thai woman does not become a b*tch, thinking her improved economic status has suddenly given her the right to ignore norms of polite behaviour and boss other Thais around like cattle, I don't think there are any major disadvantages in how Thais perceive her.

If there is resentment due to the sole fact that my wife is married to me, I have honestly never noticed it. It is possible that some people may attribute what they perceive as negative characteristics to her being married to me. I don't know, it's not the kind of thing you ask other people now is it, and even if you did, even Thais who did harbour resentment would probably be too polite to give you a straight answer?

One factor is that she may be quoted a higher price for goods and services as she could be perceived to have more money.

As for other attitudes people might have, I honestly don't know, because as part of such a couple nobody would tell me.

Now, I am sure there are jealous types as well as others who mind their own business and reserve judgement for after they have actually met a person enough to build an opinion.

Different Thais would no doubt have different answers, and perceive things differently. Trying to portray something like 'Thai public opinion' on an issue like this will result in pretty gross stereotyping that will not amount to much. Strong opinions are probably more indicative of a poster's own feelings than any objective data about what "Thais" feel.

I do think the appearance and demeanour of the couple will play a major part, in the same way as it would for most Westerners although the norms to conform to are not quite the same.

If you see a mixed couple that looks like a good match, who are cleanly dressed and fit, and who seem relaxed and friendly, surely you will perceive them in a more positive light than a couple that looks poorly matched, dressed outside the norm and tense and irritable...

[sbk]

Fletch, I live in a very small community (if you only count the local community rather than all the new non-local Thais that have recently moved onto the island) of which my husband is a member. And it is perhaps not as class oriented as a larger city, as its difficult to feel above someone you have known your entire life, but it is still divided between locals and non-locals. Then, after that, those with money and those without. That said, local people with money do not act in a superior way to those further down the economic scale that are also local.

As meadish said so well:

I do think the appearance and demeanour of the couple will play a major part, in the same way as it would for most Westerners although the norms to conform to are not quite the same.

If you see a mixed couple that looks like a good match, who are cleanly dressed and fit, and who seem relaxed and friendly, surely you will perceive them in a more positive light than a couple that looks poorly matched, dressed outside the norm and tense and irritable...

Even off the island my husband and I get treated well. We dress politely and behave in an acceptable (for Thais) fashion . I think it is fair to say that a book is judged by its cover here and if you look like a low-class slob, you will be considered one. Regardless of your skin color.

[fletchsmile]

I am the working class and my wife is the ruling class

I used to feel like that until a year ago. Then our own little hybrid Mi-so was born and staged a coup. Now she's the new ruling class, the wife second, and me another notch down the ladder. I'm starting to see how it all works...

[wileycoyote]

Wife & mother

Good poasting by aussie traveller with all the salient points

Wiley Coyote

[GuestHouse]

I'd disagree with the post from the American above, about the British being class-minded. Where I grew up in the UK it was pretty much a classless society.

I disagree with you entirely with anyone who says that Briitain is not a class based society or that class does not matter in Britain.

My family were immigrants to the UK, the values I learned at home often clashed with those of the UK society I was being brought up in - never more so than on this issue of class.

Like the American above, coming from a different culture into UK society gives a different view - coming from a non class based society into the British Class based society and the existance of class as a social issue is startlingly obvious.

We need no more evidence of how much class is an issue in the UK and how mich it impacts on Britons than that provided in the frequent threads here on TV that address 'Social Class'. British expats react to the issue with strong, often extremely strong feelings in their posts.

Americans and Australians are far less likely to respond to posts on class and when they do they are far more likely to be puzzled over what all the fuss is about.

I'm working with a large number of British expats at the moment, the fist time in quite a number of years - Social Class is a glaringly obvious issue in almost every interaction between our British expats.

Living in the middle of this they probably can't see it and would no doubt deny class is an issue.

The evidence on the ground does not match what Britons say about class in their society.

[fletchsmile]

I'd disagree with the post from the American above, about the British being class-minded. Where I grew up in the UK it was pretty much a classless society.

I disagree with you entirely with anyone who says that Briitain is not a class based society or that class does not matter in Britain.

My family were immigrants to the UK, the values I learned at home often clashed with those of the UK society I was being brought up in - never more so than on this issue of class.

Like the American above, coming from a different culture into UK society gives a different view - coming from a non class based society into the British Class based society and the existance of class as a social issue is startlingly obvious.

....

GH, first of all thanks for telling me what it was like where I grewup . I think the majority of people in the UK are middleclass, but I guess we can agree to disagree. You can perhaps highlight examples of places different to where I grew up, but realistically you've little chance of convincing me of what I saw over first 20 years of life in my home town. What you are describing sound more like cultural differences. Where I grew up class was never really an issue. I did see some cultural differences, religious differences etc, but not class. I did mention areas like London seemed to be a little different, perhaps you were in one such area. I don't think either of us would know all areas in the UK and no doubt there are some areas where there were class issues, just not the majority where I grew up. Bear in mind people who emmigrate to the UK also often do to bigger cities. I grew up in a town but lived in a few cities at times.

Part of the reason I am interested in class issue in Thailand is I never saw much of it back home. Then again I did grow up in the majority white UK born nationals, rather than a minority, so maybe only saw it thru the eyes of the majority. Seems you had some issues integrating into society as a minority group initially. I'd wager your parents consider themselves British tho now, if still with us. My first real experience of being in the minority was coming to Asia. It puts a whole new spin on things. Perhaps it's the initial outsiders/immigrants that saw the cultural differences.

BTW America does have its class issues. Otherwise why do you hear so much about ghettos and Beverley Hills lifestyles? Isn't certain aeas of Beverley Hills hi-so and the Bronx low-so? They may not use those words but the class distinctions are pretty obvious. US' wealth gaps are much wider than UK, as I would mention are many of its social divides. Vocabulary may be a little different tho' - but let's call a spade a spade

Edited October 9, 2007 by fletchthai68

[villagefarang]

What is my view?

Theoretically you may enjoy discussions of macro and statistical generalities and benchmarks but I'm sure you know that in the end you are the only one who can assess your own position.

Stereotypes not withstanding, over time each couple develops its own identity and is treated according to actions and track record. Material possessions do influence the opinion of many people but that is only a small part of the picture.

How my wife and I are viewed and treated will be a little use to you as our unique life and characteristics cannot be replicated.

[Furbie]

in thailand political concious is almost non existant and social understanding is still strongly influenced by the religion and tradition dating back thousands years ago to the hindu cast system

I would agree with that, but I'd also go furhter - Thais are incredibly class concious, as concious of their own standing in the rankings of Thai society as they are of the standing of others.

I'm always amazed by the way Thais pick up and then react to the social class signals. Introduce Thais or be present when Thais are come into contact with fellow Thais of a different class and their change in behaviour is remarkable. Not just behaviour but also language, poise and mannerisms.

I have yet to see a Thai that does not do this and I am very skeptical of foreigners who claim Thais they know do not.

A very insightful observation, that will be ignored by those that don't want to accept the reality. A wise farang does not attempt to buck that system but instead adapts to it and does not try to impose his or her's country of origins views on the subject.

I could not agree more. Anyone observing Thais from different social classes will immediately pick up on the differences in the way they treat each other – this is not to say that higher status Thais will treat lower status Thais rudely or with contempt, but that they will treat them differently. Example, the highest ranking Thai lady in my office is not only the boss, but from an extremely connected hi-so family. She treats everyone on staff, including her driver, with politeness; but she definitely goes out of her way when it comes to the other higher status staff. This goes for some choice assignments, raises, reviews, invites to big meetings and events – it all factors in. I can give dozens of examples in professional and personal life where this makes a difference. As a Westerner as well, believe me, I have had Thais come right out and ask where my GF went to uni and what she does for a living – if I want invites to their daughters' wedding or some big event and intend to bring a date, she better be acceptable. Put simply Thais are status and class conscious. If you want to live here and ignore it, up to you. If you want to succeed here, accept it and behave accordingly.

[junkofdavid2]

there are only 2 classes in the society - the rulling class and the working class,

In my opinion, that is more of a comment of socialists with a conspiracy theory.

Actually, there's an infinite number of social classes; depending on how detailed you would like to be with the definition of each and every social class.

Therefore, the quote would actually be correct in a particular case where the speaker chooses to define the social classes very broadly.

A poster may even opt to define a new class or set of classes... i.e. "There are many classes in Thailand: ruling class, the non-ruling elite (hi-so whatever), the "office worker class", the labor class, the bar-girl class,... etc."

At the end of the day, it's just a state of mind, and you can ignore the stuck up people who are "overly" conscious about it (in the extreme, with too many different classes in their book; like the type of Hi-Hi-So which discriminates against the middle-hi-so or whatever). However, you have to be conscious about it to some degree so as not to put your wife "out of place" if she clearly belongs to a class which is so far away and different from the class of a certain group which may have a party you are attending, such as a hi-so wedding for example.

Edited October 9, 2007 by junkofdavid2

[villagefarang]

if I want invites to their daughters' wedding or some big event and intend to bring a date, she better be acceptable. Put simply Thais are status and class conscious. If you want to live here and ignore it, up to you. If you want to succeed here, accept it and behave accordingly.

Very true.

[percy2]

I'd disagree with the post from the American above, about the British being class-minded. Where I grew up in the UK it was pretty much a classless society.

I disagree with you entirely with anyone who says that Briitain is not a class based society or that class does not matter in Britain.

My family were immigrants to the UK, the values I learned at home often clashed with those of the UK society I was being brought up in - never more so than on this issue of class.

Like the American above, coming from a different culture into UK society gives a different view - coming from a non class based society into the British Class based society and the existance of class as a social issue is startlingly obvious.

We need no more evidence of how much class is an issue in the UK and how mich it impacts on Britons than that provided in the frequent threads here on TV that address 'Social Class'. British expats react to the issue with strong, often extremely strong feelings in their posts.

Americans and Australians are far less likely to respond to posts on class and when they do they are far more likely to be puzzled over what all the fuss is about.

I'm working with a large number of British expats at the moment, the fist time in quite a number of years - Social Class is a glaringly obvious issue in almost every interaction between our British expats.

Living in the middle of this they probably can't see it and would no doubt deny class is an issue.

The evidence on the ground does not match what Britons say about class in their society.

I think this is the first time I've not agreed with one of your posts.

Cheers