Thailand To Discuss Thaksin Extradition In London

[TAWP]

younghusband>> You wrote "The juntophiles hate to hear this and spend much energy belittling the reforms." - but it just isn't true. A lot of the critique was even before any coup happened - this is on ongoing topic for the last 2 years atleast. And by labeling it that 'juntaphiles' are the ones doing the vocal protesting, and leaving out all the others, it's not a balanced starting point for a debate. Or perhaps it is a starting point for a debate, but we have already been down this road...for 2 years.

And Colpyat has been celebrating 'Thaksins help to the poor' for as long as he has been on this forum and waved away any critique about the real impact (benefit) of the schemes as 'better than anyone else have ever tried. That isn't a good enough excuse if the other hand is abusing the country and the people as much as possible. It's the 'carrot infront of the donkey'-rutine...

[hammered]

The poor was given a voice? You gotta be kidding...

Taking a bribe and shutting up and voting as you are told isn't my definition of having a voice.

This was certainly the traditional pattern with rural voters, and TRT was part of this.And yet Thaksin did transcend this to a significant extent implementing a number of policies that uplifted the country's poor majority.The juntophiles hate to hear this and spend much energy belittling the reforms.Nobody believes that Thaksin implemented the reforms out of the goodness of his heart, but since when has that been the motivation of any major politician?Thaksin was more than just a catalyst but a strategic thinker working for a beter educated and more prosperous country.Yes his flaws were immense, and there is almost a Shakespearian sense of tragedy in a potential great man brought down by greed and ambition.Clearly he didn't understand that wise maxim for poiticians of understanding the art of the possible. I don't know if you have a serious interest in discussing this but happy to do so if you like.It's really important to apply cool and considered judgement to this subject given the swirl of misinformation and lies emenating from the power elite on one side and the unpleasant TRT rump, the PPP.

I think we also need to add in the social forces and movements that are gradually emenating in Thailand to fully understand the TRT phenomenon. Sure TRT used a lot of traditonal tactics like the employment of the feudal MPs, and at this stage in Thailand this was probably critical. However, with the country at the juncture of change from rural to urban majorities, a need for an educated as opposed to unskilled workforce, the need for greater liberalisation to allow the development of Thai business in an international arena and with traditional beliefs and practices rapidly diminshing Thaksin found himself at the helm of something different and with many divergent allies who he probably never ever really understood in many ways but who ensured the intial sweeping victories and complete lack of opposition. However as with most alliances like these with time and as things change they tend to break down. All the groups wanted change but there were obviously differences in exactly what change, and this in its own way may even have limited what Thaksin could do, or confused TRT on what was politically possible. It would be interesting to actually know what his initial plan was as governemnt direction, policy and who were the main advisors changed dramatically at several junctures and this in itself would make an interesting study for a student of Thai politics. This in itself imho led to the rapid growth of opposition to Thaksin and the initial and now greater splintering of TRT. What now remains of the TRT in the PPP (quite a lot) is probably the pragmatic centrist of these groups (albeit with hardly a centrist leader) with the more traditional and more radical split away.

However, to bring this onto topic with all the groups so splintered and disorganised and untrusting and not even sure of how much power they have other battles will be more important than any attempt to extradite Mr. T, which would be a long shot even if everyone was in agreement, and dont expect civil sevrants to work too hard on this issue when they are not sure who their next bunch of bosses will be.

For everyones information on the label game which we now seem to have to play: I have always been anti-T. I am not sure I would fall in as a Juntaphile with my criticisms of them however. Just label me conflicted;)

[younghusband]

Hammered

I had been on the point of noting that you were certainly not in the juntophile category since clearly you do, while cautiously supporting the coup, understand its ambiguities and failures.It's interesting that on this forum acts of corruption by the current military, eg the Ukrainan APC scandal, are simply ignored.I thought your comments on the TRT movement rather perceptive although I would on the whole see Thaksin as more in strategic control rather than just reacting to the pressures of globalization.He saw the rural Thais as potential entrepreneurs and tried to encourage a less village based and deferential culture, precisely the opposite of the power elite and its self sufficiency philosophy (for others of course not themselves).But to the juntophiles he is just the manifestation of evil - a silly and trite cartoon vision of the world, sinister as well because it masks a frighteningly reactionary and violent set of vested interests.

[younghusband]

younghusband>> You wrote "The juntophiles hate to hear this and spend much energy belittling the reforms." - but it just isn't true. A lot of the critique was even before any coup happened - this is on ongoing topic for the last 2 years atleast. And by labeling it that 'juntaphiles' are the ones doing the vocal protesting, and leaving out all the others, it's not a balanced starting point for a debate. Or perhaps it is a starting point for a debate, but we have already been down this road...for 2 years.

And Colpyat has been celebrating 'Thaksins help to the poor' for as long as he has been on this forum and waved away any critique about the real impact (benefit) of the schemes as 'better than anyone else have ever tried. That isn't a good enough excuse if the other hand is abusing the country and the people as much as possible. It's the 'carrot infront of the donkey'-rutine...

Obviously a lot of people who supported the coup were previously criticising efforts to put Thai society on a more equal footing well before the coup.That's why they supported the coup so that the status quo could be entrenched.OK that's an oversimplification but you get my point.

There's room for an intelligent debate on the impact of TRT policies on the rural poor:there are some arguments on both sides.

[TAWP]

Your oversimplification isn't true since the group you are referring to would be those part of the thai elite, often thai-chinese, not your average expat on this forum.

[sriracha john]

Your oversimplification isn't true since the group you are referring to would be those part of the thai elite, often thai-chinese, not your average expat on this forum.

Thank you for taking the time to patiently post the obvious.

It's interesting that on this forum acts of corruption by the current military, eg the Ukrainan APC scandal, are simply ignored

With all due respect, any member can start a thread for discussion...or by choosing not to, are showing that they themselves are choosing to ignore an issue.

Edited October 16, 2007 by sriracha john

[younghusband]

Your oversimplification isn't true since the group you are referring to would be those part of the thai elite, often thai-chinese, not your average expat on this forum.

Thank you for taking the time to patiently post the obvious.

It's interesting that on this forum acts of corruption by the current military, eg the Ukrainan APC scandal, are simply ignored

With all due respect, any member can start a thread for discussion...or by choosing not to, are showing that they themselves are choosing to ignore an issue.

Oh well that's all right then.

[younghusband]

Your oversimplification isn't true since the group you are referring to would be those part of the thai elite, often thai-chinese, not your average expat on this forum.

I think I see what you're getting at but my proposition was just to establish a general principle of logic.As for the average expat on this forum don't forget that there must be a few linked up with Thaksin hating Thais, not necessarily at a very elevated level.Any exploitative elite always has its army of dupes, but as far as Thailand is concerned this is not a subject I am prepared to elaborate on or for that matter even discuss

Edited October 16, 2007 by younghusband

[Old Man River]

I don't know if this article has been attached on any other thread, but it may be applicable on this thread:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/IJ13Ae03.html

[jackspratt]

I don't know if this article has been attached on any other thread, but it may be applicable on this thread:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/IJ13Ae03.html

While I am not attacking the messenger (because he may have something right), it is worth looking at the form of the author.

[Old Man River]

I don't know if this article has been attached on any other thread, but it may be applicable on this thread:

<a href="http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/IJ13Ae03.html" target="_blank">http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/IJ13Ae03.html</a>

While I am not attacking the messenger (because he may have something right), it is worth looking at the form of the author.

You don't like playing puzzle pirates? I guess they have to pay these guys somehow. Anyway, for the record, Shawn is the former head of Asia for the Far Eastern Economic Review and the Asian Wall Street Journal and he speaks fluent Thai. He is one of those guys that is always worth a read.

[jackspratt]

I don't know if this article has been attached on any other thread, but it may be applicable on this thread:

<a href="http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/IJ13Ae03.html" target="_blank">http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/IJ13Ae03.html</a>

While I am not attacking the messenger (because he may have something right), it is worth looking at the form of the author.

You don't like playing puzzle pirates? I guess they have to pay these guys somehow. Anyway, for the record, Shawn is the former head of Asia for the Far Eastern Economic Review and the Asian Wall Street Journal and he speaks fluent Thai. He is one of those guys that is always worth a read.

I have had a further look at the "form" of Crispin, which I should have done before posting (confusing him with Paul Handley).

Crispin does indeed warrant reading.

[TheExpat]

Maybe he will come back and have a coup of his own and toss these fools out of office!!!!

[John K]

So it has been a week and they were to be back in Thailand Friday..... any word of progress?

[Tony Clifton]

The pursuit for these "honest" people (who refuse to testify even though they say they did nothing wrong) continues.

Extradition case to be hurried

British prosecutors have agreed to help expedite an application to the court for the extradition of Thaksin Shinawatra and his wife to stand trial over the Ratchadaphisek land deal, the head of the Thai delegation said yesterday. Nanthasak Pulsuk, Deputy Director-General for special litigation of the Office of the Attorney General, was speaking on his return to Thailand. He said British officials would not speculate how the court would view the extradition request. Thaksin was accused of using his authority as PM to influence the purchase of the 33-rai block of land by his wife from the Financial Institutions Development Fund in 2003.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/23Oct2007_news11.php

Edited October 23, 2007 by Tony Clifton

[lazeeboy]

The pursuit for these "honest" people (who refuse to testify even though they say they did nothing wrong) continues.

Extradition case to be hurried

British prosecutors have agreed to help expedite an application to the court for the extradition of Thaksin Shinawatra and his wife to stand trial over the Ratchadaphisek land deal, the head of the Thai delegation said yesterday. Nanthasak Pulsuk, Deputy Director-General for special litigation of the Office of the Attorney General, was speaking on his return to Thailand. He said British officials would not speculate how the court would view the extradition request. Thaksin was accused of using his authority as PM to influence the purchase of the 33-rai block of land by his wife from the Financial Institutions Development Fund in 2003.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/23Oct2007_news11.php

absolute waste of tax payers money sending them to uk .......

[mrtoad]

The pursuit for these "honest" people (who refuse to testify even though they say they did nothing wrong) continues.

Extradition case to be hurried

British prosecutors have agreed to help expedite an application to the court for the extradition of Thaksin Shinawatra and his wife to stand trial over the Ratchadaphisek land deal, the head of the Thai delegation said yesterday. Nanthasak Pulsuk, Deputy Director-General for special litigation of the Office of the Attorney General, was speaking on his return to Thailand. He said British officials would not speculate how the court would view the extradition request. Thaksin was accused of using his authority as PM to influence the purchase of the 33-rai block of land by his wife from the Financial Institutions Development Fund in 2003.

<a href="http://"http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/23Oct2007_news11.php"" target="_blank"><a href="http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/23Oct2007_news11.php" target="_blank">http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/23Oct2007_news11.php</a></a>

absolute waste of tax payers money sending them to uk .......

Agreed, but I bet they had a nice time while they were there.

[younghusband]

The pursuit for these "honest" people (who refuse to testify even though they say they did nothing wrong) continues.

Extradition case to be hurried

British prosecutors have agreed to help expedite an application to the court for the extradition of Thaksin Shinawatra and his wife to stand trial over the Ratchadaphisek land deal, the head of the Thai delegation said yesterday. Nanthasak Pulsuk, Deputy Director-General for special litigation of the Office of the Attorney General, was speaking on his return to Thailand. He said British officials would not speculate how the court would view the extradition request. Thaksin was accused of using his authority as PM to influence the purchase of the 33-rai block of land by his wife from the Financial Institutions Development Fund in 2003.

<a href="http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/23Oct2007_news11.php" target="_blank">http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/23Oct2007_news11.php</a>

I'm intrigued by the expression "have agreed to help expedite an application..".This reads as though British officials have indicated a degree of support for the Thaksin extradition, and is of course totally misleading as presumably the way it was reported was meant to be.In fact it is a lie, presumably designed to give cover to the freebie to London and persuade the feebleminded and credulous that the Thaksin extradition is moving in the right direction..

What I am sure the Crown Prosecuting Bureau has done is to politely take the Thai delegation through the procedural issues relating to extradition, the basic homework which could have been done without ever leaving Bangkok.The statement that the British made about not speculating on how the courts would regard the extradition request is revealing.It means that someone on the Thai delegation actually asked the question obviously stupid and inappropriate but also momentarily perhaps forgetting that unlike the sometimes corrupt and always politically influenced bench in junta led third workd countries, the courts in advanced states under a democratic rule of law are genuinely independent of the Executive.

Anyway I hope there were some enjoyable evenings out in Queensway and Gerard Street so at least something positive resulted from this shameful trip.

Edited October 23, 2007 by younghusband

[John K]

I can agree with wanting to help rush things along. I have no doubt the talks they had covered all the issues and not just ths one. As Thaksin claims to be a VIP, moving him to the head of the Que is expected.

I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth but when the evidence is finally put together for the other cases, Thaksin will become a huge embarrassment to the UK along with others because of the high profile position he has taken. If there is any incentive that certainly could be part of it. If Thaksin blended into the woodwork it would be different I am sure with just minor mentions on page 7 in the local news next to the ads for jelly doughnuts.

[george]

British prosecutors to help extradite Thaksin, wife

BANGKOK: -- A working group responsible for coordinating with British prosecutors to find ways to extradite Thailand's ousted prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and his wife to stand trial here over their questionable land purchase will meet Thursday, a senior Thai official said Tuesday.

Nanthasak Pulsuk, deputy director-general for special litigation of the Office of the Attorney General, told journalists upon his return from England that he had held talks with British prosecutors on the possibility of extraditing the couple and that British prosecutors had agreed to cooperate with their Thai counterparts.

The British officials, however, want the Thai prosecutors to share all the evidence related to the case so that it could be given to the British courts for consideration of the extradition request, Mr. Nanthasak said.

He said the working group would meet this Thursday.

Mr. Thaksin, for whom an arrest warrant has been issued by order of Thailand's Supreme Court, had allegedly evaded court hearings along with his spouse regarding a controversial Ratchadaphisek area land purchase in Bangkok. The couple had failed to appear for the first hearing on August 14 despite a court subpoena, prompting the Office of the Attorney General to obtain arrest warrants for the couple.

Though Thailand and the United Kingdom signed an extradition agreement in 1960, Mr. Thaksin, who has been living in self-imposed exile in Britain following a bloodless coup against his government on September 19, 2006 could remain free to stay in England if the British authorities consider him not as a felon but as a political defendant.

British rule of law would be taken into account in dealing with the Thai request for extradition of the former prime minister, who had allegedly abused his power by having his wife, Pojaman, purchase the Ratchadaphisek property at an unusually low price from the Office of the Financial Institutes Development Fund.

--TNA 2007-10-23

[slimdog]

So what can we conclude:

1. Thai authorities don't know that applications for extradition have to be handed to the Home Secretary, not to the courts.

2. Thai authorities haven't realised that the current Extradition Act in force in the UK is dated 2003, not 1960 (There has never been an extradition act of 1960)

3. Even if they do proceed, the person they are trying to extradite would probably be delighted, as this would give him far more options than he currently has, which at the moment is either to stay in exile, or come back to Thailand and face a multitude of charges. Extradition for him, especially for the Ratchada land deal would be a wonderful break:

1. It is probably the weakest case they have

2. Even the plaintiff had to be threatened with legal action to file a complaint

3. The likleyhood is that he would receive at worst a suspended sentence

But the good news for Thaksin is that the Thai authorities would be compelled to comply with the Extradition treaty of 1911, part of which reads:

Article 6

A person surrendered can in no case be detained or tried in the State to which the surrender has been made, for any other crime or on account of any other matters than those for which the extradition shall have taken place, until he has been restored or had an opportunity of returning to the State by which he has been surrendered.

Which means that once the Ratchada land case had been concluded, the Thai authorities have to allow him to return to the U.K, should he so desire, and until the procedings have been completed and Thaksin is given the opportunety to return to the U.K, no further legal procedings can take place...

[John K]

I can agree with wanting to help rush things along. I have no doubt the talks they had covered all the issues and not just ths one. As Thaksin claims to be a VIP, moving him to the head of the Que is expected.

I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth but when the evidence is finally put together for the other cases, Thaksin will become a huge embarrassment to the UK along with others because of the high profile position he has taken. If there is any incentive that certainly could be part of it. If Thaksin blended into the woodwork it would be different I am sure with just minor mentions on page 7 in the local news next to the ads for jelly doughnuts.

Your post is heavy laden with wishful thinking and misplaced optimism.

People are going to have to, sooner or later, face facts that they were duped by the Thai elite and the Junta and that Thaksin is going to happily live out his life outside of Thailand as a successful businessman and unfortunately he will never truly be brought to justice for his crimes.

That is the price you are going to have to pay for supporting an illegitimate military regime.

As I said from the very beginning, it is not in their interests to make an example of Thaksin rather to make him a scapegoat and to legitimise their illegal power grab in the eyes of the uneducated masses.

Thaksin has been extremely clever and has elevated his position to an almost celebrity status by buying a football club in England. In this move of almost unparalleled genius, he has not only raised the stakes amongst those in the West as to his struggle against the junta but also amongst his former supporters within Thailand itself. You haven't heard from them in a while, but they are still there, still poor, and now feeling even more disenfranchised than usual.

In the Brave New World of PR and spin, and more importantly what most people in the UK will see, is that the Owner of Manchester City football club and former PM of Thailand with the grubby past is struggling against claims from an illegitimate military government.

Well I can see that there are many possible outcomes yet, and looking at the track record of Thaksin, if he has not done so already he will apply his methods of business with no regard for the laws and rules of the west. That works out to being trouble and unneeded aggravation.

On a human level, prosecutors are prosecutors no matter what country they are in, and they have a common bond in they way they think. The only difference is working the laws of the land. You could go so far as to call them family. Once they UK prosecutors got a taste of what Thaksin is about, they bonded with the Thais working towards a common goal hence the statement pointed out by younghusband.

The UK prosecutors are smart enough to know Thaksin will not changes his ways and the evidence is fairly obvious to even the most doubtful. That math works out to sooner or later Thaksin will be eventually be charged with the same types of crimes in the west. That simply makes Thaksin a guest and not an invited guest Manchester or not. To protect the future victims of thaksin in the UK, it makes sense to let this guest know he is not welcome and become the headache of others.

[hammered]

I can agree with wanting to help rush things along. I have no doubt the talks they had covered all the issues and not just ths one. As Thaksin claims to be a VIP, moving him to the head of the Que is expected.

I don’t want to put words in anyone’s mouth but when the evidence is finally put together for the other cases, Thaksin will become a huge embarrassment to the UK along with others because of the high profile position he has taken. If there is any incentive that certainly could be part of it. If Thaksin blended into the woodwork it would be different I am sure with just minor mentions on page 7 in the local news next to the ads for jelly doughnuts.

Your post is heavy laden with wishful thinking and misplaced optimism.

People are going to have to, sooner or later, face facts that they were duped by the Thai elite and the Junta and that Thaksin is going to happily live out his life outside of Thailand as a successful businessman and unfortunately he will never truly be brought to justice for his crimes.

That is the price you are going to have to pay for supporting an illegitimate military regime.

As I said from the very beginning, it is not in their interests to make an example of Thaksin rather to make him a scapegoat and to legitimise their illegal power grab in the eyes of the uneducated masses.

Thaksin has been extremely clever and has elevated his position to an almost celebrity status by buying a football club in England. In this move of almost unparalleled genius, he has not only raised the stakes amongst those in the West as to his struggle against the junta but also amongst his former supporters within Thailand itself. You haven't heard from them in a while, but they are still there, still poor, and now feeling even more disenfranchised than usual.

In the Brave New World of PR and spin, and more importantly what most people in the UK will see, is that the Owner of Manchester City football club and former PM of Thailand with the grubby past is struggling against claims from an illegitimate military government.

I totally agree with your analysis that it is not in the current bunches interest to extradite Mr. Thaksin, anmd I can see him living his life out in the UK or most other western countries although personally I could also see him returning. However. I dont think most in the UK will give much thought to the deposed ex-leader of a SE Asian country, and those that are politcally aware will probably not hold in high esteem someone labelled by Amnesty as a human rights abuser. In the UK the statements of Amnesty etc will hold a lot more sway than any statement by a Junta led or for that matter democratic led SE Asain state, or the statements of an ex-leader of one of these places. Such is life.

His buying a premier league football club has certainly been a good politcal move in terms of what happens here in Thailand. Mr. Thaksin was always the master of marketing in Thailand. In the UK and west in general I dont think it makes much difference, for as much as it raises his profile of his struggle, if anyone actually cares, while there, it also has highlighted his human rights record quite publically. It may have even damaged him more in the West where even elected human rights abusers are not flavour of the month, and for all the talk of never had charges brought etc etc few who care for such things doubt the reports of the independent organizations that bring these issues to light. Mr. Thaksin may be extremely good at playing the Thai politcal scene but his attempts at doing it abroad have never been better than mediocre. It is best to never misunderstand that all of his actions are aimed purely at one place - Thailand. Indeed the previous poster has a point when he mentions that Mr. Thaksin will be somewhat of an embarrasment for the UK government although not true to the level of where they will do anything, but to have yet another deposed world leader labelled by repsected human rights groups as a serial human rights abuser living a wealthy public life in London is something the UK government would rather not have and they would certainly rather he kept a low profile rather than play high profile politcal games including the purchase of Manchester City which has been widely analysed as a politcal move in itself even in the UK.

Still, all this extradition talk will likely end after the election where either the PPP will succeed in buying enough ex-MPs to carry the day and then get to drop all charges on their master or a non-PPP government will get in that will attempt to reset the future politcal landscape with its own set of well marketted populist policies who will not particularly want to waste too much time on T related issues while doing so although this scenario does beg the question as to how T will react to gambling so big financially on the election and losing.

[Mid]

Prosecutor: Case to extradite Thaksin 'weak'

BREAKING NEWS

((BangkokPost.com) - Public prosecutors are worried that evidence to convict ousted premier Thaksin Shinawatra may be too weak to have him extradited to Thailand.

Sampan Sarathana, chief prosecutor for foreign litigation, said after having met with UK authorities recently that evidence may not be enough for extradition to be proceed.

snip

bangkokpost.com

Edited October 30, 2007 by Mid

[Kan Win]

bangkokpost.com

bangkokpost.net

Kan Win

[Mid]

bangkokpost.com

bangkokpost.net

Kan Win

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=123125

[Kan Win]

bangkokpost.com

bangkokpost.net

Kan Win

http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/b...s.php?id=123125

Khun-fusing really

Kan Win

[John K]

may be... not is. Mid style post.

Edited October 30, 2007 by John K

[cclub75]

Sampan Sarathana, chief prosecutor for foreign litigation, said after having met with UK authorities recently that evidence may not be enough for extradition to be proceed.

At least, they have surely enjoyed their week end in London, paid on the country's budget...

Pathetic.

[sriracha john]

Thaksin's been enjoying his 57 weeks in London, paid mostly by the country's taxpayers.

Super pathetic.

Edited October 30, 2007 by sriracha john