Floor Plans

[RueFang]

I'm planning on building a house at the end of the year or early new year. I have used the sketchup program to show others exactly what I want and how it will all look in 3D. My Thai family are telling me this is all we need to build the house, that we don't need to get real floor plans (in Thai) done up! It's going to be a typical Thai style wooden house with concrete bathroom/kitchen, on stilts nothing too fancy.

So my question for those that have experience in this area...should I go and pay someone to make some professional floor plans? How much, how long..what's the process? My husband thinks I think too much and doesn't see the need to go and get plans done, so it's easier for me to get info here!! Thanks heaps.

[Naam]

So my question for those that have experience in this area...should I go and pay someone to make some professional floor plans?

why would you go through all these "professional" hassles? just act as you did when you bought your last car calling a dealer "please have a car ready tomorrow, i will be at your place around 09.30hrs to buy one and pay cash".

[chownah]

My house was built without any plans. If I had a set of plans the people who built it would not be able to understand them anyway. A model of the house would be better than plans but I'm not recommending making one. A computerised 3D rendering of the house would be helpful but again I'm not recommending making one unless its an easy thing to do.

If you are planning to build a typical house for your area and you will be hiring local village help (which is what it sounds like) and if your experience is similar to mine, then the workers will know how to do it already as they have done it many many times before...typical houses are...well...typical.... so as long as you are wanting typical, it should be easy for them to build it just knowing the rough dimensions of what you want. Don't expect everything to be exactly like you want it though because the tendency will be for them to do whatever they have typically done when some uncertainty arises without consenting with you first....so it helps to be on site as much as possible (everyday...all the time if possible) to be sure they are doing what you want.

In building a typical house for my area what I did was to first go look at alot of typical houses and find the features that I wanted...then I would take my workers to look at these to ask questions and so that they can see exactly what I wanted...also it is easier to explain alerations on a theme if you have the basic theme right in front of you as a starting point. I did this BEFORE construction started so that when we started the workers had a good ideas of how I wanted it mostly....but here is always misunderstanding so its important in the beginning phase (layout of foundations for example) to be sure your starting off heading in the right direction. I supervised very closely all of the stuff that would be difficult to tear out and do over...specifically all of the concrete work and the heavy framing and floor joists....then when it came to stuff that could easily be done over (curtain walls, ceiling, etc.) I didn't watch so close cause I figured I could just redo it later if it was not adequate.

One caution....if you want every step in a run of stairs to be equal then you will probably have to lay it out yourself as the steps in a Thai house are almost alway unequal (check it out yourself).

Short answer is if you are building a typical house with local village people doing the work then plans are not needed and perhaps would not be useful even if you had them.....but you will have to work hard to get exactly what you want if what you want isn't what comes to mind for your workers when the concept is executed.

Chownah

[RueFang]

Thanks Chownah, that's done a lot to put me at ease. I'm a planner and having issues not having a 'real' plan! The sketchup 3D pics are really great and easy to change anything and reprint too. There's a lot of wooden stilt houses going up in my area at the moment so by the time I'm ready to start hopefully they will be finished so I can just point and say "I want that"!

The only thing not typical that I don't know if I can accomplish is having an upstairs bathroom. Is it really so difficult to build a bathroom upstairs..all the stilt houses in my village have bathrooms downstairs.

I've noticed that a lot of houses have really narrow stairs..all the same size but only about 15 cm wide!

[sbk]

I thought you needed an official plan for the or bor dor?

[Naam]

I thought you needed an official plan for the or bor dor?

not if one builds (as the OP must be planning) without a building permit. but then... who cares about permits except some stupid newbies like me? after all... isn't this Thailand?

[sbk]

Hubby got a permit. As a local thai, does that make him a stupid newbie too?

[Yorkie]

Whether the Thai builders needed a floor plan was not relevant to me. It was me who needed it!

I was directed (by my designated foreman) towards a local architect who already had plans drawn up for a house he'd designed before. The plan was basically what I was looking for but needed some room size increases and some structural changes which were effected quite easily and simply. The cost of the plans, including the modification, was Bht 4,500.00.

As Chownah says, you really need to be supervising the construction at least 90% of the time. Don't leave the site if anything complicated is about to begin.

Regarding the official plan for the town council (bor dor), it is necessary particularly if you ever intend to sell the land with the house on it. For the minimal cost involved, I would go this route.

You can see my house building pictures at:

http://freebeerforyorky.com

Y

[kamalabob2]

In my limited experience in Thailand it seems to me that a qualified LICENSED architect will quote you a price to properly design a home by the Square Meter. A small home will cost less to design with proper legal plans than a large home. Either way you want to have real ELECTRIC, ROOF , PIPE, FOUNDATION, etc.. plans all included. It is not just a simple "floor plan" you would pick up at a sales office of a housing development or what you see in the "House Plan Books" in every Thai book store. Our building staff are from a village, the foreman is from the same village, but he and other staff members at least appear they are reading the APPROVED house building plans. I can tell you the electrical plan is several pages and why settle for narrow straight stairs when it costs the SAME to have a CURVED stairway. A good architect does not charge "by the meeting" so spend your money 5000 to 50,000 baht (it depends on the size in my experience) and have many meetings and have EXACTLY what you want. The cement, steel, windows, electric wire and tile in a poorly built and poorly designed home will cost the same per square meter as in a energy efficient home that is attractive, quiet, COOL and safe.

Why should you and your husband get angry with a building staff doing "stupid" things. You and he could spend a little money and your time to give them a Proper Plan. If they can NOT read a plan, maybe you should consider looking around for better "village" builders.

What is the phrase: "Proceed in haste, regret in leisure"

I can tell you that the office that issued the building permit in my name did in fact look over the plans. Try to prove to an insurance company about your building costs and if your home was built to a safe standard without a proper building plan and building permit.

You can have "real plans" from a licensed architect, even for a small house in a village for a modest cost. A great architect can discuss with you which building materials are cost effective and energy efficient. They can take you to see EXAMPLES installed in buildings they designed.

How many baht will you spend for just ONE air conditioner? How many baht to pay the Provincial Electricity Authority monthly electric bills in one year? How many baht for a real Teak Wood door, or perhaps the architect can suggest beautiful doors (with matching door frames) at a fraction of the cost.

The "true test" of a good house plan in my opinion is "Does rain water run in rain gutters with or without a downspout and spill near the any entrance of the home?" A good plan in my opinion can have ALL rain downspouts hidden in the wall, all a/c piping hidden in the wall, all electric wires hidden in conduit in the walls and it does not cost more. "Village builders" can in fact follow a plan if the foreman is experienced.

It was cost efficient and time efficient to have sub contractors install interior ceilings, electric wiring, and windows. Our builders were given on the job site free training in the roof tile and light weight wall block installation by manufactures "trainers".

Ask THE OWNER at your local Home Mart for recommendations of "smart architects, smart builders". The owners of Home Mart or similar large stores see which builders are buying good quality materials or who is "cutting corners" on the size of steel or grade of cement. Prices can really vary per square meter for the architectural plans so be sure to INTERVIEW in person several architects and go to look at completed and/or under construction projects they have designed. They might have already done a similar size home you like and have a special price on that house plan design.

A good architect can also supply you in writing with an EXACT building materials list that is VERY specific. You can then use that list when obtaining a building contractors price.

A good architect will go to the Building Permit office and handle your approval without being intimidated into paying a bribe.

A simple house does not have to mean ugly, hot, uncomfortable, noisy or unsafe. Have we not all stayed in hotels that had good plans and [perhaps hotels that we poorly designed for comfort and noise?

Coming from California I initially never considered an architect, because of the preconceived notion I would not be able to afford an architect. The American who had a good architect design the house in this photo set me straight and I then seriously looked into hiring an architect and I have not regretted the time and money.

How many baht to have your teeth cleaned and a cavity filled in America? How many baht for a great dentist to perform the same in Thailand? Similar radical price difference between and professional design prices in America and in Thailand!

[jimmym40]

hey, is that your house BOB2 in the photos. where in thailand are you located? Looks absolutely inviting. how sq m is it?

as far as my two cents on building plans - THEY ARE A MUST

when you have "detailed" plans, there not much room for disagreement between owner and builder. even with plans, the builders try to take short cuts or "do it their way"

with a set of plans, overall you will save many arguments and end up probably saving money by the fact you do not have to do things over because they were not done right the first time.

also, depends how far out in the boonies you might be, when you go to ask for an electric meter, they may ask for floor plans. I heard someone mention that a few years back.

why take a chance to save a few thousand baht - get a set of plans...

[Naam]

A simple house does not have to mean ugly, hot, uncomfortable, noisy or unsafe.

you have a beautiful house Bob!

[Naam]

Hubby got a permit. As a local thai, does that make him a stupid newbie too?

sbk, your hubby seems to be some old fashioned chap like me who wanted to make sure that the builder used at least 50% of the steel reinforcements the structural engineer calculated and "prescribed" in his plans.

[kamalabob2]

That is NOT my house. It is the American's House in a village very near Satuk who made me realize that an Architect plays a key role in a comfortable house. Actually that American had a terrible experience with the local builder he fired and he ended up finishing that home as his own general contractor. He has since hired our architect to provide the actual building plans mandatory for homes on plots of land he is selling on Koh Samui in a development you can view at www.suwana.INFO That is a comfortable 2 bedroom home with a guest house and fantastic two level infinity pool. Sitting in the Sala enjoying a beverage with buddies while our wives or girl friends enjoy eating or swimming in this pool was very inspirational for me to "step up" and plan a house so we could move from our 2000 baht a month Issan rental unit. You might recognize some Thai Visa members in the photo! The owner and his charming wife are great hosts!!

[Smithson]

Do good builders also carry pencils to note down measurements and stuff like?

[RueFang]

Thanks for all the responses - very interesting...the whole or bor tor thing is a completely separate issue that I'm having repeated dramas with my husband about! Being the farang that I am, I want a building permit, plan and people to come out and put markers in the rear border as there is currently a stick with a plastic bottle on it marking the spot now. All of which my husband and family think I am a completely insane, think too much, don't know how things are done in the real world type thing! Apparently no one in our village ever gets a building permit unless it's on the main highway (which we're not). Apparently no one gets official plans done because the builders know everything. Apparently we will look completely foolish if we pay people to come out to measure the property and put in markers and will show the extended family that we don't trust them and where they think the property border is!! I really don't give a rats what people think if I know it's been done the right way, but my husband is obviously very big on not loosing face to his family. The property is only about 500 m from where we live now and pretty much everyone in the village is family. What to do?

Edited October 13, 2007 by RueFang

[chownah]

RueFang,

In Thai culture it seems that in building a house it is the husband who decides things so even though it may be acceptable for you to discuss these things, any suggestions you have will probably be considered odd if not because you are a wife and not a husband then because you are a woman at all and if not because you are a woman then because you are a westerner and if not because you are a westerner then because your ideas are just plain different from their ideas. I don't mean to paint too bleak of a picture but I'm the husband and we built a house in the local style and I wanted it to be the local style but I wanted a few things slightly modified. For example I wanted to make the window frames 6 inches thick instead of 4 inches thick so that they would look nicer and also this would allow the walls to be built of thicker material and this would allow them to be much stronger...if we had done them the typical way the wall would not have fallen down due to lack of strength and they wouldn't have been ugly.....but I thought my idea was better. When I first suggested my idea the answer was it couldn't be done!!....so I asked why and they explained.....I let it slide and they continued to work on other things. A few days later I brought up the topic again asking again why it wouldn't work and this time when they told me I had a suggestion for a way to make it work (a very simple suggestion really but I won't go into all the details).....they just insisted that this was not the way to do it and it really should be done the usual way...so I let it slide and they went back to working on other things. A few days later I brought up the subject with my wife alone....she was visibly upset that I didn't just take the advise of my workers since one of them was the BEST WOOD WORKER IN THE VILLAGE which she told me as if this was a true mark of outstanding exellence (he is good but not sooooo good). So...once more I let it slide. About a week later I collected the wife and the workers together and suggested that I still though that my idea was ok but I was worried about it because they are very experienced and think it might be a problem...but I really wanted to see if my idea was good...so was it possible to make one window frame (we have about ten altogether) the way I wanted it so that we could temporarily mount it in the wall where it would go and just see how it looked.......and if it was no good then I would understand that it was because my idea was bad..... By now about two weeks had transpired since I first brought up the issue....the workers go to work on the custom window frame. After a few days (I forget how long it took) the frame was completed so my wife the workers and I gathered where the window would go and sort of propped it up with some wood temporarily so it would look more or less as it would when installed. I liked it...way better than the traditional ones...so....I asked..."if someone comes over to my house and they see windows like this will they say, 'oh my these are ugly windows and I think the people who built the house don't know how to do it right?'".......Their response was, "no, if people come here they will say that these frames are very strong and that it was expensive to build them and they are really nice." So...I asked my wife if it was ok with her if we installed this one permanently to be sure it was OK and she gladly gave her consent.

It took me, the male husband two weeks of convincing to do a trial run of an idea that was only slightly different from the usual way.....and when the trial run was done not only was it not impossible but it was GREAT!!!!

So, with some village house builders if its not the usual way then its impossible....even if its only slightly different...and even if the end result is obviously (to me at least) a better result......just an indication of how much time an effort it can take to make a variance from the usual way....I hope I haven't scared you off.

I think for you the essential thing is to go look at houses in your village and perhaps some surrounding villages and find what you like....check out all the details; the wiring, the plumbing, the drains, the lights, the stairs, the etc....everything. If there is something you want and can't find then this will be a difficult thing and perhaps you should discuss with the husband about how or if you will get it.

As to permits: Where I live no permit is needed at all. In some areas permits are not needed. Our house had a very quick and cursory electrical inspection and that is the only inspection....except for the village headman came by to make sure we had a toilet as this is the requirement for getting the house book and an official address.....that's all the inspections we had. The idea that without a permit or plans you can net sell or get bank loans etc....interesting ideas I never thought of as they don't apply to me. I think that most typical village houses don't get sold or have loans taken out against them...but don't know.

Be sure you want a typical house. All of the nay sayers here are talking about houses that are not typical for a place like the village where I live. That's ok and I've got no problem with that but I just want to say that is why they say you need plans. Be sure you want a typcial house.

Chownah

[RueFang]

Thanks again Chownah..it's a very familiar tale you tell! I have learned that to get my way takes a few weeks of subtle suggestions and trials, just as you say Have definitely learned patience living in this country! I know without doubt I'll have to let a lot of things slide, but also know there are some things I can't. I have already put together a booklet of the 3D plans I made, photos of local houses and even construction pics which everyone is surprised and impressed at (being a woman??)..next step is talking to people who recently/currently are making similar houses that we want. I live way out in the boonies so it's not surprising really that no permits are required because everything is so lax...also we would never be selling the land or house as it's been in the fam since time began! When people want loans here they put it against their rubber plantations rather than their houses, so doesn't really apply here either.

Cheers!

[Naam]

For example I wanted to make the window frames 6 inches thick instead of 4 inches thick so that they would look nicer and also this would allow the walls to be built of thicker material and this would allow them to be much stronger...

ahhhmmm.... Honourable Chownah, Sir;

now i know why you have some problems to follow my logic. it seemed to be reciprocal... until i read your above mentioned explanation. the secret how to build thick strong walls has been revealed. unfortunately my house has been built already with 7.87 inch thick walls plus in- and outside plaster. if i had known before how to increase the thickness, perhaps i would have done it.

[Naam]

pretty much everyone in the village is family. What to do?

what about getting in future some brides and grooms from other villages?

[Naam]

I have already put together a booklet of the 3D plans I made, photos of local houses and even construction pics which everyone is surprised and impressed at (being a woman??)

nothing wrong with that! my wife was involved in each and every detail planning of every house we built. without her advice and input i am sure that i wouldn't have (sometimes) recognized the forest (because of all these trees). we "male" husbands quite often lack the straight thinking of our "female" wives.

[Naam]

That is NOT my house. It is...

still a beautiful house even if it is not yours. i like the outside areas. mine are boring² because i have no bloody idea how to design ambient areas. was always concentrating on each and every square centimeter inside and on fancy technical features (where i did quite well).

[astral]

Do good builders also carry pencils to note down measurements and stuff like?

Nah, not Thai ones............

You want it here, Luv??

Is their approach.

Plans are for having lunch on.